Eric's cam challenge

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273 said:
You look for the trends, there is a somewhat pattern to it's seemingly randomness but in the end of the day its only one test for one engine. But does show there's probably many different ways to get there (similar results).
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He doesn’t get it because his hero didn’t win, place or show.

If he did he’d be blowing DV silly about how great he is.

I thought Winegartner laid out what the test was all about.

And then you had clowns like Mike Jones who bad mouthed the test and everything else but didn’t send in a cam because he knew he’d suck.

And he’s saying the same **** the DV defenders are saying.

The upshot of the testing was because he was tired of calling 10 different cam companies and getting 15 different answers.

The reason he didn’t degree the cams is because most guys STILL don’t degree the cam. They throw it in and line up the dots and send it. His testing reflected that group of end users.

Same thing with tuning. The vast majority of guys don’t even start out on the dyno. They just gut it out.

You can do it but it takes 10 times longer. Maybe more if you have an inconsistent driver.

So it’s dot to dot, leave the tuning alone and see what happens.

To claim his testing is invalid and/or pointless is ignorant. It makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Then you have the “wine and cheese” crowd, the long haired dope smokers and the nattering naybobs who pick apart ANY testing not done with a multi-million dollar setup because any and all testing is invalid.

That just makes me laugh. I get that if you need to meter fuel with an eye dropper or you need to be working out to the fourth digit you need that type of accuracy.

I still argue that that’s still mostly mental masturbation unless they are duplicating the exact conditions in the dyno room to the track.

And, that information only matches IF the track weather is exactly like it was in the dyno cell.

I have watched the testing more to watch the people with no skin in the game *****, whine and snivel about how it’s all wrong and proves nothing.

That’s what losers say when they get beat.
 
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Newbomb Turk said:
He doesn’t get it because his hero didn’t win, place or show.

If he did he’d be blowing DV silly about how great he is.

I thought Winegartner laid out what the test was all about.

And then you hard clowns like Mike Jones who bad mouthed the test and everything else but didn’t send in a cam because he knew he’d suck.

And he’s saying the same **** the DV defenders are saying.

The upshot of the testing was because he was tired of calling 10 different cam companies and getting 15 different answers.

The reason he didn’t degree the cams is because most guys STILL don’t degree the cam. They throw it in and line up the dots and sent it. His testing reflected that group of end users.

Same thing with tuning. The vast majority of guys don’t even start out on the dyno. They just gut it out.

You can do it but it takes 10 times longer. Maybe more if you have an inconsistent driver.

So it’s dot to dot, leave the tuning alone and see what happens.

To claim his testing is invalid and/or pointless is ignorant. It makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Then you have the “wine and cheese” crowd, the long haired dope smokers and the nattering naybobs who pick apart ANY testing not done with a multi-million dollar setup is invalid.

That just makes me laugh. I get that if you need to meter fuel with an eye dropper or you need to be working out to the fourth digit you need that type of accuracy.

I still argue that that’s still mostly mental masturbation unless they are duplicating the exact conditions in the dyno room to the track.

And, that information only matches IF the track weather is exactly like it was in the dyno cell.

I have watched the testing more to watch the people with no skin in the game *****, whine and snivel about how it’s all wrong and proves nothing.

That’s what losers say when they get beat.
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Lol, long haired dope smokers.
 
ch1ll said:
I believe the setup and tune did not suit his grind, other competitors it did.
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He had the EXACT same information every other competitor had, and used his "expert" software and his "60" years of experience. The test simply exposed what many allready know about him and his book theory selling BS
 
The one's of the top 10 that stand out/interesting to me are 5th and 10th place, OP Mustang and BTR.

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They seem to stray furthest from the rest, the ivc/evo seems to be in the general ballpark with the rest. Ivo & evc is a lot less and obviously giving it them the widest lsa and least overlap of the 10, they had 250 exhaust which seemed to be the minimum while still making good hp. They also had the smallest intake duration 234/236.

The BTR is fairly similar even slightly bigger to the OP Mustang but did a lot worse in torque, main spec that sticks out of the BTR compared to the OP Mustang is 66 EVO is the earliest of all.

The ones that seem to do worst in torque most had a 48 + for IVC but funny the ones that did good in torque seemed to have a 48 - IVC so around 48 could do good or bad on torque.

Obviously these aren't all the cam spec be interesting to see the @ .200" numbers.

Another interesting pair is 3rd and 9th, Joe Carol and Powel.

They both were under 250 exhaust 247/246 had the next set of lowest overlap 25-22 and on the smaller side of intake duration 235/237. Both didn't do so well hp wise which most that had less than 250 exhaust had trouble also. But Joe did get 2nd in peak torque which he has the earliest ivc in the top ten and the earliest overall.

Funny how varied the top 5/10 or the whole field was, other than engines that had less than 250 exhaust all but two had good hp and most engines with good torque generally had 41-48 IVC even though some engines with 48 did poorly with torque. Most the other specs had some similarities but also quite a few out liars not too many smoking guns that say this is overwhelming the right spec for this engine.
 
ch1ll said:
I believe the setup and tune did not suit his grind, other competitors may have.
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If that was your engine and called all these guys for a custom cam that's basically what you would of got from them, how's that not fair to see how they would do under those circumstances?
 
273 said:
The one's of the top 10 that stand out/interesting to me are 5th and 10th place, OP Mustang and BTR.

View attachment 1716319648

They seem to stray furthest from the rest, the ivc/evo seems to be in the general ballpark with the rest. Ivo & evc is a lot less and obviously giving it them the widest lsa and least overlap of the 10, they had 250 exhaust which seemed to be the minimum while still making good hp. They also had the smallest intake duration 234/236.

The BTR is fairly similar even slightly bigger to the OP Mustang but did a lot worse in torque, main spec that sticks out of the BTR compared to the OP Mustang is 66 EVO is the earliest of all.

The ones that seem to do worst in torque most had a 48 + for IVC but funny the ones that did good in torque seemed to have a 48 - IVC so around 48 could do good or bad on torque.

Obviously these aren't all the cam spec be interesting to see the @ .200" numbers.

Another interesting pair is 3rd and 9th, Joe Carol and Powel.

They both were under 250 exhaust 247/246 had the next set of lowest overlap 25-22 and on the smaller side of intake duration 235/237. Both didn't do so well hp wise which most that had less than 250 exhaust had trouble also. But Joe did get 2nd in peak torque which he has the earliest ivc in the top ten and the earliest overall.

Funny how varied the top 5/10 or the whole field was, other than engines that had less than 250 exhaust all but two had good hp and most engines with good torque generally had 41-48 IVC even though some engines with 48 did poorly with torque. Most the other specs had some similarities but also quite a few out liars not too many smoking guns that say this is overwhelming the right spec for this engine.
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I’m still trying to figure out if the winning cam is the guy from Cam Motion.

If so, and I knew for sure it was Cam Motion I’d have bet everything I have on THAT cam winning.

I’m not sure how many Cam Motion cams I’ve sold but it’s over 100. And never once was I disappointed.

In fact, in 2003 we did a test with CM verses a well know cam grinder.

We used the same numbers for both cams. And it wasn’t close. The CM cam whooped the other cam in every metric you could think of.

So if that’s who number one is I’m not even remotely surprised they won.
 
DV did ok with torque 9th, my guess if he upped the exhaust duration above 250 instead of 244 he would of did a lot better power wise and overall.
 
MOPARMAGA said:
I'm not shocked at dv not doing well.
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DV also said his lobe profile was street car designed lobe, other competitors could be super aggressive and not live long on the street, straining your valve train.

Even through his peak hp numbers were lower than the best cam(-32hp), his average hp numbers were better (-14.6).

I would like to believe that if this competition had degreed every camshaft, optimized timing curves and carb tuning, this whole competition would be a different story. That would take a month of dyno time and $$$$$.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I’m still trying to figure out if the winning cam is the guy from Cam Motion.

If so, and I knew for sure it was Cam Motion I’d have bet everything I have on THAT cam winning.

I’m not sure how many Cam Motion cams I’ve sold but it’s over 100. And never once was I disappointed.

In fact, in 2003 we did a test with CM verses a well know cam grinder.

We used the same numbers for both cams. And it wasn’t close. The CM cam whooped the other cam in every metric you could think of.

So if that’s who number one is I’m not even remotely surprised they won.
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Seems like NK Performance according to his website sales BTR and CM cams.

NK Performance and Racing
 
ch1ll said:
DV also said his lobe profile was street car designed lobe, other competitors could be super aggressive and not live long on the street, straining your valve train.

Even through his peak hp numbers were lower than the best cam(-32hp), his average hp numbers were better (-14.6).

I would like to believe that if this competition had degreed every camshaft, optimized timing curves and carb tuning, this whole competition would be a different story. That would take a month of dyno time and $$$$$.
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He knew what the assignment was, that's what he choose to send. Compare to the others that made good hp he was shy on exhaust duration.

If he wasn't so full of himself and blowing his own horn how he's the best no one would be ripping on him, he did ok. Most the other guys tend to be modest so when they don't do so well people tend to give them a pass. But for all these years of him going on how he's the best he failed to showed it today.
 
ch1ll said:
DV also said his lobe profile was street car designed lobe, other competitors could be super aggressive and not live long on the street, straining your valve train.

Even through his peak hp numbers were lower than the best cam(-32hp), his average hp numbers were better (-14.6).

I would like to believe that if this competition had degreed every camshaft, optimized timing curves and carb tuning, this whole competition would be a different story. That would take a month of dyno time and $$$$$.
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But that’s just making excuses. DV knew EXACTLY what the testing would be.

Did he want to win and screw up or did he do his best and it is what it is?

I say it’s the latter.

He chose the timing and the lobes. This is the guy that has tested 19,000 cams or something like that. He couldn’t come up with a more competitive cam than that?

No excuses. He didn’t do well.
 
Bewy said:
273,
Thanks for posting.

I could never understand what this test would prove.....& still don't.

From what I could tell, all the parameters such as LSA, duration could be anything. So what actually is being compared?
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Me neither, but I didn’t dig too deep into the test ( I find Eric hard to listen to) and it’s a LS which means less than nothing to me. I was only interested in how DV would do and I didn’t have high expectations cause of how the test was run and I knew he wasn’t grinding a full blown race cam and if others did, he would be bested.

Now if Eric supplied 23 exact clone engines to competitors to install their cams in and tune, then run One Lap Of America,

That would be a true test and competition.
 
ch1ll said:
I believe the setup and tune did not suit his grind, other competitors may have.
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I believe he has lost his touch, the dude is very old and it shows. I am not faulting him for that.
The thing is dv is somewhat of a standard bearer for many when there are way better methods and better less famous dudes in the industry. Hell he never ever mentioned a burr finish on anything I've ever seen so that is a disqualification in my eyes.
 
273 said:
If that was your engine and called all these guys for a custom cam that's basically what you would of got from them, how's that not fair to see how they would do under those circumstances?
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I did not say it was not fair, I believe it was fair. Every entrant was told the parameters. The test had to be done in an economical way. Otherwise it would have been a month of dyno time and no sleep for Eric.

I don’t believe it showed the true capabilities of each cam grind.
 
ch1ll said:
Me neither, but I didn’t dig too deep into the test ( I find Eric hard to listen to) and it’s a LS which means less than nothing to me. I was only interested in how DV would do and I didn’t have high expectations cause of how the test was run and I knew he wasn’t grinding a full blown race cam and if others did, he would be bested.

Now if Eric supplied 23 exact clone engines to competitors to install their cams in and tune, then run One Lap Of America,

That would be a true test and competition.
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I'm sure Eric can afford to build 23 exact engines to hand out, there's cost involved, these people aren't Elon there's gonna be compromises. Sorry they can't do the test to your standards. Take from it what you will.

They knew how it would be tested they set in their own advances, he used the same timing set so if there off everyone will be off same amount sure that could still give some an advantage, but you never know if they dialed everything in there's also the chance DV could of done worse.
 
Just so you know cause I believe a bunch of y’all don’t follow DV and actually just don’t like him, he said he believed his grind would not come out on top.

What he should have done other than sending in his street car grind, he should have sent in a second cam with a radical full blown dyno race grind.

Lobe profiles matter not just timing events.
 
MOPARMAGA said:
I believe he has lost his touch, the dude is very old and it shows. I am not faulting him for that.
The thing is dv is somewhat of a standard bearer for many when there are way better methods and better less famous dudes in the industry. Hell he never ever mentioned a burr finish on anything I've ever seen so that is a disqualification in my eyes.
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Agreed, When did he do the bulk of his dyno research, 80's/90's ? Don't think he's had much presence on the drag strip, overall his pick was ok. But don't know why people think he's gonna do better than the guy's building top race engines now. Technology moves quickly.
 
273 said:
Agreed, When did he do the bulk of his dyno research, 80's/90's ? Don't think he's had much presence on the drag strip, overall his pick was ok. But don't know why people think he's gonna do better than the guy's building top race engines now. Technology moves quickly.
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I say because of Uncle Tony lol
 
ch1ll said:
Just so you know cause I believe a bunch of y’all don’t follow DV and actually just don’t like him, he said he believed his grind would not come out on top.

What he should have done other than sending in his street car grind, he should have sent in a second cam with a radical full blown dyno race grind.

Lobe profiles matter not just timing events.
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The guy LOST, he makes excuses just like your doing. He didn't even finish in the middle of the pack.
 
I don't think the test proved jack squat.
Good for a magazine page is about it.
 
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