Gets hot and stalls out

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Well boys and girls...ladies and gentlemen...Damen und Herren...I've got an update. It did it to me again, but this time with a twist. As you may recall, the last time it happened the car was at 210* on the gauge while running, was shut off for about 5 minutes (temp climbed well over 210*), then started, went for about 100 yards and stalled. Wouldn't start again until it had sat for about 2 hours.

This time we took it to a car show about 20 miles away, mostly interstate. Went out there just fine (weather: low to mid-70*s, full sun). Ran at speeds of 35 mph in town to 75 mph on the interstate, absolutely no issues. Was there for several hours; long enough that the engine temp was at baseline. We left (weather: 90*, full sun), got about 95% of the way home, and it stumbled...and died. Here's the kicker: I was at about 40 mph when it first stumbled; I thought it was going to recover but it stumbled again and that was all she wrote. Engine temp on the gauge read just under 195*, so well short of the temp it was showing the last time it did this. Coasted to about 6 blocks of the house and then I got some cardio and plyometric training by pushing the car (I am far too out of shape for that ****). It has been sitting in the driveway for about an hour and it still doesn't want to start. (Oh, and it's leaking power steering fluid in the driveway, likely because I had to steer it without power and the pressure got too much.)

I've had this car for a while now in this kind of heat (and hotter) without these issues. This is literally new this year. Maybe it's not an engine heat issue after all? Lack of airflow at low speeds making it too hot under the hood? Fuel pump starting to go out? It's just strange to me that it just decided to start doing this. I'm going to continue making the changes you all have recommended, but maybe swap the fuel pump while I'm redoing the fuel lines anyway? I'm kinda getting tired of not knowing if I'm going to make it home every time I leave the driveway. And I really am too far out of shape for that kind of exercise!!
 
itsfishy said:
Well boys and girls...ladies and gentlemen...Damen und Herren...I've got an update. It did it to me again, but this time with a twist. As you may recall, the last time it happened the car was at 210* on the gauge while running, was shut off for about 5 minutes (temp climbed well over 210*), then started, went for about 100 yards and stalled. Wouldn't start again until it had sat for about 2 hours.

This time we took it to a car show about 20 miles away, mostly interstate. Went out there just fine (weather: low to mid-70*s, full sun). Ran at speeds of 35 mph in town to 75 mph on the interstate, absolutely no issues. Was there for several hours; long enough that the engine temp was at baseline. We left (weather: 90*, full sun), got about 95% of the way home, and it stumbled...and died. Here's the kicker: I was at about 40 mph when it first stumbled; I thought it was going to recover but it stumbled again and that was all she wrote. Engine temp on the gauge read just under 195*, so well short of the temp it was showing the last time it did this. Coasted to about 6 blocks of the house and then I got some cardio and plyometric training by pushing the car (I am far too out of shape for that ****). It has been sitting in the driveway for about an hour and it still doesn't want to start. (Oh, and it's leaking power steering fluid in the driveway, likely because I had to steer it without power and the pressure got too much.)

I've had this car for a while now in this kind of heat (and hotter) without these issues. This is literally new this year. Maybe it's not an engine heat issue after all? Lack of airflow at low speeds making it too hot under the hood? Fuel pump starting to go out? It's just strange to me that it just decided to start doing this. I'm going to continue making the changes you all have recommended, but maybe swap the fuel pump while I'm redoing the fuel lines anyway? I'm kinda getting tired of not knowing if I'm going to make it home every time I leave the driveway. And I really am too far out of shape for that kind of exercise!!
Click to expand...
Just had a thought for everyone: I had JUST put on a new Powermaster 95 amp alternator. In fact, was taking it out for a longer test drive the first time it stalled on me. Any chance that 95 amps isn’t enough, and that’s causing the stumble/stall?
 
itsfishy said:
Just had a thought for everyone: I had JUST put on a new Powermaster 95 amp alternator. In fact, was taking it out for a longer test drive the first time it stalled on me. Any chance that 95 amps isn’t enough, and that’s causing the stumble/stall?
Click to expand...

You’d have to have a lot of stuff drawing current to make that alternator cause issues.
 
TrailBeast said:
GET ONE! :D
They help quite a bit with hot fuel issues.
Engine heat travels right up into the carb metal.
Click to expand...

Can't help but think the Holley what you call them > double pumpers... 2 outter fuel bowls soaking up the heat from a hot intake and engine.

The difference between Holley and Edelbrock is Edelbrock has the 2 fuel bowls protected under the removable top bonnet plate. less heat transfer to the fuel.

Screenshot_20220106-213841_Gallery.jpg


One other thought is the original assembly line 318 blocks hold more coolant than the later re-engineered 360 blocks that use the same exterior casting as the 318 block, so less coolant will fit inside.

So naturally the 360s over heat, then add an overbore and a stroke pushing more power (heat) out of the same block, sorry to say it's going to overheat, unless evasive measures mentioned above are taken.

Good luck on your quest...


☆☆☆☆☆
 
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itsfishy said:
Fair enough. For reference, this is what I’m looking at.

On an overcast, 85* day at cruising speed it will sit at 180*. On a hot day (95+) it will go to 190*. Stop and start (or sitting at a prolonged light) it will go to 210* or a tad higher. What I think a lot of people are missing is that the temp climbed well above 210* after sitting for 5-7 minutes, meaning no airflow during that time. I think - again, my hypothesis- that it started with the fuel that was in the carb, but the fuel in the lines was boiling off and it stalled. Again, I could smell the fuel when I took the air cleaner off but I couldn’t/didn’t see any. That theory lines up with other times where it takes a little longer for the car to start (I.e. will turn over for a few seconds longer than a “normal” start) after sitting for 15-30 minutes: enough time for fuel in the carb and top of the lines to have boiled, but also enough time that fuel below the filter (and possibly the pump) to cool and start the car.

View attachment 1716231851
Click to expand...

Like your gauges.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
You’d have to have a lot of stuff drawing current to make that alternator cause issues.
Click to expand...
I’m running electric brakes, but clearly I was not on them at speed. Fuel pump is mechanical. Really not much else- MSD, radio, that’s about it. Everything else I can think of is mechanical.
George Jets said:
Can't help but think the Holley what you call them > double pumpers... 2 outter fuel bowls soaking up the hear from a hot intake and engine.

The difference between Holley and Edelbrock is Edelbrock has the 2 fuel bowls protected under the removable top bonnet plate. less heat transfer to the fuel.

View attachment 1716236179

One other thought is the original assembly line 318 blocks hold more coolant than the later re-engineered 360 blocks that use the same exterior casting as the 318 block, so less coolant will fit inside.

So naturally the 360s over heat, then add an overbore and a stroke pushing more power (heat) out of the same block, sorry to say it's going to overheat, unless evasive measures mentioned above are taken.

Good luck on your quest...


☆☆☆☆☆
Click to expand...
I ordered some coolant specifically made for high performance engines that has a 70/30 glycol:water ratio. That should help speed up both heat transfer and flow. I’ll take before and after heat measurements at the radiator intake/outflow and report back.
 
Ok, last update on this: car has sat for 2+ hours now. Still won’t start. :elmer: Engine and bay temps are much cooler (of course). More plyometrics getting it into the garage (I actually couldn’t do that myself, had to get some help). Now I’m wondering: fuel pump?

I’m going to have a beer. And a shower. And probably another beer.
 
itsfishy said:
Thanks! Wish they’d stop reading 0… :eek:
Click to expand...

Would love to have them in my '89 Truck 4 bbl. conversion project.

Instead of a factory "Message Center" above the radio, that came factory on '89 Trucks. Not to worry the computer engine monitoring has now been taken out of the loop with a 4 bbl and Points ignition... lol > got to love Old School.


☆☆☆☆☆
 
itsfishy said:
Well boys and girls...ladies and gentlemen...Damen und Herren...I've got an update. It did it to me again, but this time with a twist. As you may recall, the last time it happened the car was at 210* on the gauge while running, was shut off for about 5 minutes (temp climbed well over 210*), then started, went for about 100 yards and stalled. Wouldn't start again until it had sat for about 2 hours.

This time we took it to a car show about 20 miles away, mostly interstate. Went out there just fine (weather: low to mid-70*s, full sun). Ran at speeds of 35 mph in town to 75 mph on the interstate, absolutely no issues. Was there for several hours; long enough that the engine temp was at baseline. We left (weather: 90*, full sun), got about 95% of the way home, and it stumbled...and died. Here's the kicker: I was at about 40 mph when it first stumbled; I thought it was going to recover but it stumbled again and that was all she wrote. Engine temp on the gauge read just under 195*, so well short of the temp it was showing the last time it did this. Coasted to about 6 blocks of the house and then I got some cardio and plyometric training by pushing the car (I am far too out of shape for that ****). It has been sitting in the driveway for about an hour and it still doesn't want to start. (Oh, and it's leaking power steering fluid in the driveway, likely because I had to steer it without power and the pressure got too much.)

I've had this car for a while now in this kind of heat (and hotter) without these issues. This is literally new this year. Maybe it's not an engine heat issue after all? Lack of airflow at low speeds making it too hot under the hood? Fuel pump starting to go out? It's just strange to me that it just decided to start doing this. I'm going to continue making the changes you all have recommended, but maybe swap the fuel pump while I'm redoing the fuel lines anyway? I'm kinda getting tired of not knowing if I'm going to make it home every time I leave the driveway. And I really am too far out of shape for that kind of exercise!!
Click to expand...

Got headers on the car dumping lots of additional heat into the engine bay???
 
George Jets said:
Can't help but think the Holley what you call them > double pumpers... 2 outter fuel bowls soaking up the heat from a hot intake and engine.

The difference between Holley and Edelbrock is Edelbrock has the 2 fuel bowls protected under the removable top bonnet plate. less heat transfer to the fuel.

View attachment 1716236179

One other thought is the original assembly line 318 blocks hold more coolant than the later re-engineered 360 blocks that use the same exterior casting as the 318 block, so less coolant will fit inside.

So naturally the 360s over heat, then add an overbore and a stroke pushing more power (heat) out of the same block, sorry to say it's going to overheat, unless evasive measures mentioned above are taken.

Good luck on your quest...


☆☆☆☆☆
Click to expand...

Believe it or not the Edelbrock carbs are more prone to heat soak because of where the bowls are.
 
George Jets said:
Got headers on the car dumping lots of additional heat into the engine bay???
Click to expand...
Have headers, yes, but same headers that have been on it for a very long time. Here are the two changes to the car in the past 2 years:

New Powermaster 95 amp alternator (old one wasn’t charging, replaced about 3 weeks ago)
.25” wood spacer under carb (done yesterday)

Absolutely nothing else has been changed on this car from last summer to current.
 
itsfishy said:
Have headers, yes, but same headers that have been on it for a very long time. Here are the two changes to the car in the past 2 years:

New Powermaster 95 amp alternator (old one wasn’t charging, replaced about 3 weeks ago)
.25” wood spacer under carb (done yesterday)

Absolutely nothing else has been changed on this car from last summer to current.
Click to expand...

That's a School Bus Alternator, 80 amps in itself is big.

You only need a stock 40 amp Alternator for the old A Bodies.

Running in the heat > reduce the load.

You are not powering a Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon Consert.


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George Jets said:
That's a School Bus Alternator, 80 amps in itself is big.

You only need a stock 40 amp Alternator for the old A Bodies.

Running in the heat > reduce the load.

You are not powering a Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon Consert.


☆☆☆☆☆
Click to expand...
:lol:
Probably a better experience…

Unfortunately there’s no crosswalk for Powermaster alts, so I basically looked to see what the closest match was - and also asked a builder what he would recommend. He went with the PM 95a square back. So here’s my question: even if it produces more heat, that’s basically a moment in time, right? So engine bay cools, engine cools (I’m now less inclined to think of it as an engine heat problem as opposed to an engine bay heat problem) why is it not firing? We have fire; doesn’t seem like we have fuel.

Next: this is not a stock A-body. My knowledge on these things is woefully inadequate, but we’re not talking a 273 running straight points. Doesn’t/wouldn’t that make a difference?
 
You are learning, the more crap you add > the more heat you produce.

You were already on the edge making 200 more horsepower than it came with stock.

Question is, what pushed it over the edge of the cooling capabilities, with the stacked up performance goodies???

Everything contributes to the extra heat. Like a guy that just ate 20 hot dogs > can only handle so much...


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Not to mention the crap fuel that is being shipped in from the Inner part of Outer Mongolia, when we (the USA) could be pumping our own... sweet crude.

That is one thing that has changed over the last year.


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George Jets said:
You are learning, the more crap you add > the more heat you produce.

You were already on the edge making 200 more horsepower than it came with stock.

Question is, what pushed it over the edge of the cooling capabilities, with the stacked up performance goodies???

Everything contributes to the extra heat. Like a guy that just ate 20 hot dogs > can only handle so much...


☆☆☆☆☆
Click to expand...
I totally agree. But the problem is that while it never ran particularly “cool” before, it also never stalled out on me before. So while making sure fuel is cooler via insulation and spacer is beneficial, getting high performance coolant will reduce engine temps and also beneficial, these things were never affected before. To me, something either happened, ie a new alternator made some kind of unforeseen change to the dynamics causing stumble and stall, or something is not working as it used to, ie a fuel pump going south not providing fuel at random moments. I understand that it can be a combination of things- heat can certainly be a contributing factor- but I don’t like coincidence. Everything was good, not perfect but good, a change was made, things are not good.
 
What was the diagnostics on the last failure to start? Fuel in the carb? Fuel in the filter? Spark?
If it cranks, it isn't the alternator. I wonder if there is a heat soak issue with the distributor pickup, but checking for spark will settle that issue.
There has to be a root cause for this failure. But you need data to get to that point.
 
RLF Cuda said:
What was the diagnostics on the last failure to start? Fuel in the carb? Fuel in the filter? Spark?
If it cranks, it isn't the alternator. I wonder if there is a heat soak issue with the distributor pickup, but checking for spark will settle that issue.
There has to be a root cause for this failure. But you need data to get to that point.
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100% agree. Working on that very thing.
 
Now that you are home and the car will not start you need to start diagnosing what's not there

Do you have spark?
Do you have fuel in the carb?
If you have spark what is the timing. (With a helper you can do this while cranking)

Intermitant issues are a pain in the butt. The best you can hope for is it to happen where you can do testing.

I am more convinced it is not a direct engine heat issue

It could be an electrical heat issue like the ECU is getting hot just from usage.

Another possibility, while you replaced the alt there is a loose wire or skinned wire that under just the right conditions it shorts out.

The pickup or the wires to the ECU
 
Kind of like the tire that was holding air just fine yesterday is now flat today > don't understand what happened when everything was fine before.

Add your own ending to this ^^^ story.

☆☆☆☆☆
 
Dana67Dart said:
Now that you are home and the car will not start you need to start diagnosing what's not there

Do you have spark?
Do you have fuel in the carb?
If you have spark what is the timing. (With a helper you can do this while cranking)

Intermitant issues are a pain in the butt. The best you can hope for is it to happen where you can do testing.

I am more convinced it is not a direct engine heat issue

It could be an electrical heat issue like the ECU is getting hot just from usage.

Another possibility, while you replaced the alt there is a loose wire or skinned wire that under just the right conditions it shorts out.

The pickup or the wires to the ECU
Click to expand...
I’m with you- I don’t think it’s a direct engine heat issue anymore either. I’m going to look at the wires on the alt again. The ground post on the alt is very close to the block if I remember correctly; I thought that when I installed it. I’ll check those more closely.
 
itsfishy said:
I’m with you- I don’t think it’s a direct engine heat issue anymore either. I’m going to look at the wires on the alt again. The ground post on the alt is very close to the block if I remember correctly; I thought that when I installed it. I’ll check those more closely.
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So pour a little fuel down it’s throat and see if it fires off.

Nothing about the alternator is going to keep it from running except a dead short, and you would know it if that was the case.

You would have an electrical fire.
 
OK folks, I think I might be closing in. I looked at the old alternator and the only numbers/identification i can find on it are:

USA
UV
INA
BCH 06604

The letters are the same on the new one, with the exception of an "X" instead of "UV".

The BCH 06604 is just the bearing, but everything I can find indicates that this is an alternator for a Chevy/GM vehicle made by Delco-Remy, likely rebuilt and sold by Powermaster. Unfortunately I haven't found an amps rating for it yet. I'm still looking for other marks on it to see if I can narrow it down, but that's what I have so far. I also noticed that the posts (ground and power) are in significantly different places on the two alternators: the posts on the old one are much closer together than on the new one. That would explain why I thought the ground was so close to the engine - because it was, relative to the old one.

Checked the wires too: the ground is a 10g wire connections are solid. It does touch the valve cover but there doesn't seem to be any heat damage to it. The battery wire is about an 8g; the 1/4" connector is kind of torqued around (from tightening the connection) but seems to be a solid connection.
 
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