Hughes Engines 1.6 Rocker Geometry/Setup

[j par]

That’s good to know- i am running these 1.6 Hughes on speedmaster with .512 hydraulic flat tappet lift cam so it’s low lift compared to most serious builds. I need to actually bolt these damn shafts down without shims and check the scrub to get baseline then just add a shim and check.

Do you recall what length pushrod you went with, custom length or did you use a standard size

Yes absolutely if you haven't tried it without the shims I would do that...
Like you said at least you get a baseline from there..
I have a reground cam so I have custom length Smith brother push rods..
I tend to run adjustable rockers because I always run solid lifters on my performance builds... If I had a stock base circle cam with hydraulic lifters and probably just use stock push rods and stock rockers...
But with that lift I would definitely have some matching springs...

 

[Rat Bastid]

Nice! Your lucky, what heads are you running them on?

Don’t count on luck. Just because something runs doesn’t make it right.

To correct the geometry the shaft needs to move up and away from the valve. Those flat shims don’t do that. They raise the shaft which actually makes it closer to the valve.

Guys have run this stuff with the geometry wrong for decades because there use to be only one option. Mill the stands and use offset shafts and blocks.

That was until Mike came up with his shims. Now it’s a no brainer to correct geometry.

Of course, you’ll still have the folks who love dog turds more that donuts and they‘ll do everything to grab a dog turd any time they can.

Leave the turds alone. Have Mike hook you up. Your valve train will thank you.

Also, a centered sweep pattern isn’t near as critical as getting the sweep as narrow as possible.

My sweep is .035 wide. It’s not quite on center. I think my correction was .425 but I can’t say that for sure. I can measure the shim tomorrow if you want. I have a fairly big correction.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I've never understood why anyone would argue over getting something "right". Sure, these engines ran fifty plus years with the rocker shafts not in the optimized location, but if you're building one from the ground up, there's no reason not to make everything as right as it can be. You cannot argue what correct positioning of the rocker shaft and corrected geometry does for valve guide and stem wear, plus the reduction of friction can actually add up to some power gains......however small. It all adds up. There's just no reason not to get it dead right and it has nothing to do with being a guru, but more about being smart. I mean, it's not like it costs thousands of dollars to do.

 

[Bewy]

Hard to tell for sure from the pic, but the rocker looks to be touching the retainer...or very close. When you have such short rockers like these engines have with stout valve springs with a big cam, steel or ductile rockers are better because they can be thinner in the area where contact can be made.

 

[Ted265]

I've never understood why anyone would argue over getting something "right". Sure, these engines ran fifty plus years with the rocker shafts not in the optimized location, but if you're building one from the ground up, there's no reason not to make everything as right as it can be. You cannot argue what correct positioning of the rocker shaft and corrected geometry does for valve guide and stem wear, plus the reduction of friction can actually add up to some power gains......however small. It all adds up. There's just no reason not to get it dead right and it has nothing to do with being a guru, but more about being smart. I mean, it's not like it costs thousands of dollars to do.

Don’t count on luck. Just because something runs doesn’t make it right.

To correct the geometry the shaft needs to move up and away from the valve. Those flat shims don’t do that. They raise the shaft which actually makes it closer to the valve.

Gotta agree with you guys here. You can stab your cam in dot to dot and the engine will run with the cam timing a few degrees out, but you take the time to degree the cam and get it right. An engine will still run when its out of ballance - but you pay someone to ballance the rotating assembly and get it right. The correction kit is about $200 if I remember correctly - small change to prolongue the life of your valvetrain components, regain some of the lift lost through the valvetrain and ensure its rock solid when you beat on it. Plus if someone is going out of their way to provide this kind of service, it's good to support that.
To the OP - the rocker sweep looked "OK" with no correction on these heads and rockers but check how far the shaft centreline needed to move to get it "right".

 

[DNasty777]

@Ted265 what head is that?

 

[Heywodja]

Yeah I’m on the fence with using them I mean I understand trimming them as the instructions say, if I can get it dialed in using no more than 3 I’ll most likely roll with them. This is a street car with .500 lift cam nothing crazy. I spoke to Mike today at length may get the ball rolling with the kit to have as a back up

Mike custom mills each set of shims to your specifications. There is no off the shelf stuff like his. In addition to up and down adjustments his product also provides fore and aft as well. So today you might be building a mild motor, it in the future you might decide to upgrade the cam, your valve train will be good to go.

 

[j par]

Gotta agree with you guys here. You can stab your cam in dot to dot and the engine will run with the cam timing a few degrees out, but you take the time to degree the cam and get it right. An engine will still run when its out of ballance - but you pay someone to ballance the rotating assembly and get it right. The correction kit is about $200 if I remember correctly - small change to prolongue the life of your valvetrain components, regain some of the lift lost through the valvetrain and ensure its rock solid when you beat on it. Plus if someone is going out of their way to provide this kind of service, it's good to support that.
To the OP - the rocker sweep looked "OK" with no correction on these heads and rockers but check how far the shaft centreline needed to move to get it "right".
View attachment 1716076550

Cam degree? Balancing?.. this is why I have these Yahoo's on ignore.. they're constantly stepping over donuts and eating dog poop .. LOL...
The picture looks like it does more to correct the push rod then anything...
Did you have to redrill the push rod holes?..

 

[dartindanno]

Listen to Jpar, don't balance your engine assembly, don't degree your cam and just slap some rockers on and go. And make sure you bring your car to his shop. What a buffoon

 

[RustyRatRod]

Listen to Jpar, don't balance your engine assembly, don't degree your cam and just slap some rockers on and go. And make sure you bring your car to his shop. What a buffoon

Well, that's nowhere near where I was going. He has valid points. There ARE instances where the rocker shaft is in the correct spot for a given application. If it doesn't need relocating, there's no reason to do it. That said, the more an engine's modified with different valves, heads, pushrods, reground camshafts.....and anything that might affect rocker geometry, the higher the chance is to need relocation. In the case of my slant 6, I used 318 valves that are .300" longer than the slant 6 valves. I wanted that extra length in order to be able to put more valve spring in. So naturally, I needed the relocation kit. I was simply advocating checking everything and getting it right and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[dartindanno]

I was referencing post #33 and his ridiculous comments

 

[j par]

I was referencing post #33 and his ridiculous comments

This is my point of having you Yahoo on ignore and the reason why... You make stuff up and take off with it...
That was balance? Degree cam? Meaning why are we talking about that when the subject was rocker geometry?...
But you being a Yahoo grab balance and degree and run off at the mouth about how I say not to do that. You mean don't do as I do and degree my cam and have my rotating assembly balance?...
I'm glad I unlocked this page so I could confirm why I have "you people" on ignore...
I agree with Rusty rat rod everything should be checked.. good for what the lp is looking for and has in place is it 100% necessary?.. that's up for him to decide but I recommend having things at least within tolerance again for his purposes...
Hughes 1.6 to 1 rockers that were nailed directly down with no shins to my factory heads and no problems but that was just my luck I guess.. (if that is the subject we're talking about.…) Simply just my experience with what the op was asking for... Not a recommendation just my experience...

 

[Ted265]

Cam degree? Balancing?.. this is why I have these Yahoo's on ignore.. they're constantly stepping over donuts and eating dog poop .. LOL...
The picture looks like it does more to correct the push rod then anything...
Did you have to redrill the push rod holes?..

Just a couple of examples of how an engine will still run when something is not right. If you know something is off during a build why not correct it? Especially when it's relatively cheap and easy to do. If you look at the pic the OP posted the contact point of the roller is off to the side of the valve tip and it looks like the rocker arm is contacting the retainer - the shaft needs to move.
I did have to clearance the pushrod holes a little with the 1.6 ratio rockers and 3/8 pushrods, if I used 5/16 it probably wouldn't have needed it.

@Ted265 what head is that?

Aeroflow SBM heads - China castings, I think it's just a speedmaster head they put a different valve job on and put in their own box.

 

[j par]

Just a couple of examples of how an engine will still run when something is not right. If you know something is off during a build why not correct it? Especially when it's relatively cheap and easy to do. If you look at the pic the OP posted the contact point of the roller is off to the side of the valve tip and it looks like the rocker arm is contacting the retainer - the shaft needs to move.
I did have to clearance the pushrod holes a little with the 1.6 ratio rockers and 3/8 pushrods, if I used 5/16 it probably wouldn't have needed it.

Aeroflow SBM heads - China castings, I think it's just a speedmaster head they put a different valve job on and put in their own box.

"Looks like"... It leads back to like Rusty rat rod was saying everything needs to be checked. We look at these pictures on the internet and try and diagnose from that when it's op who needs to do the leg work. I always make sure I can slip piece of rounded welding wire behind the spring and a lifter to check clearance so it's not hitting the edge of the spring...
My Hughes rocker are not even close..
All of my 273's needed clearance...
Side to side clearance is simple shims that Hughes I thought gave me with my rockers....
Going to put this out there so I can be done with this...
Check everything! If you need some side to side shims and center them do so. If you have a very small sweep that's right in the center of your valve with your tip, if you can get a piece of .030 welding wire to slip behind the valve underneath the rocker, you have two threads or less showing on the adjuster and your push rods not hitting anything you are probably good to go for 500 ish lift street car... In my opinion...
If you're going to the wall and making sure everything is perfect ultimate perfect for ultimate durability and ultimate drag racing and all the gurus got in your head that you're going to gain all this horsepower I would definitely call B3 I'm sure it's a couple hundred dollars for his kit the man can't be doing this for free, do whatever he says and likely have to get custom length push rods once it's all jacked up in the air and likely have to redrill your head for push rod clearance... And not that that's any kind of big deal or big expense for someone who's going that far with their engine...
And one more thing all of this starts to get really old., Week after week month after month year after year of going over the same small block Mopar. The carbs the spark plugs the oil the valve train geometry the stroker than not the stroker that head flow.... good Lord BORING!!!...

 

[gzig5]

And one more thing all of this starts to get really old., Week after week month after month year after year of going over the same small block Mopar. The carbs the spark plugs the oil the valve train geometry the stroker than not the stroker that head flow.... good Lord BORING!!!...

Then why are you here other than to hear yourself talk? You seem to think you have all the answers, right? Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

 

[dartindanno]

"Looks like"... It leads back to like Rusty rat rod was saying everything needs to be checked. We look at these pictures on the internet and try and diagnose from that when it's op who needs to do the leg work. I always make sure I can slip piece of rounded welding wire behind the spring and a lifter to check clearance so it's not hitting the edge of the spring...
My Hughes rocker are not even close..
All of my 273's needed clearance...
Side to side clearance is simple shims that Hughes I thought gave me with my rockers....
Going to put this out there so I can be done with this...
Check everything! If you need some side to side shims and center them do so. If you have a very small sweep that's right in the center of your valve with your tip, if you can get a piece of .030 welding wire to slip behind the valve underneath the rocker, you have two threads or less showing on the adjuster and your push rods not hitting anything you are probably good to go for 500 ish lift street car... In my opinion...
If you're going to the wall and making sure everything is perfect ultimate perfect for ultimate durability and ultimate drag racing and all the gurus got in your head that you're going to gain all this horsepower I would definitely call B3 I'm sure it's a couple hundred dollars for his kit the man can't be doing this for free, do whatever he says and likely have to get custom length push rods once it's all jacked up in the air and likely have to redrill your head for push rod clearance... And not that that's any kind of big deal or big expense for someone who's going that far with their engine...
And one more thing all of this starts to get really old., Week after week month after month year after year of going over the same small block Mopar. The carbs the spark plugs the oil the valve train geometry the stroker than not the stroker that head flow.... good Lord BORING!!!...

Yet here you are spouting dribble. If the hobby is so boring to you feel free to make an unannounced exit

 

[Nat]

Holy Mopar guru overload... LOL
My Hughes 1.6 rockers are great right out of the box... Only side to side shim's... Been running perfect for years...

One must wonder how these engines ever ran the first 40 years before geometry started getting corrected or even worried about it....

agree I'M USING THE hughes 1.6 rockers on 2 engines have yet to have aproblem of course took hours to set up properly

 

[madhatta360]

Thanks everyone for the feedback and input on this, this is exactly what I was looking for perspectives from both sides of the coin to make a deterimination on this project. As of now, I'm going to continue forward working with these shims to see how this plays out and just going to spend time to dial it in as best as I can. If I can't get this to where I feel comfortable with it being the proper sweep- then I will be moving forward with the geo correction kit from mike at B3- good news is he is an hour from me and good chance we will catch up at Carlisle this year too.

Thanks all- I'll post back up on some progress- enjoy the weekend and happy motoring, get out to your local shows/cruises, tiss the season here in the northeast.

cheers
Kevin

 

[Dale Davies]

Hey gang, got my SM heads done and installed onto the duster running .512 lift with a 1.6 rocker setup from Hughes Engines.

I’m looking for feedback from those running Hughes engines- did you use the shims provided, if so how many or feedback on stacking more than 3?

The geometry thing is all new for me/pissing me off in all honesty, I’m looking to get it close to stay reliable not racing and don’t about loosing a little lift. Spoke to Mike at b3 I know he’s the expert, not sure if I’m down to drill out my new shafts and do that if I can get close with using the shims from Hughes.

Gotta try to get this dialed in before I figure out pushrod, I have just one of the the .040 shims installed pics attached- looking for feedback on this, thanks.

View attachment 1716075807

View attachment 1716075808

View attachment 1716075809

View attachment 1716075810

In the above photo, is that at 50% lift? Are your lifters solid or hyd? Best is to remove the rockers from one cylinder and "paint" the end of the valve stem with a marker pen. Reinstall the rockers and roll the engine over about 6 revolutions. The rocker roller will leave a wear mark where it rolls across the valve stem. You want it centered and as narrow a mark as you can get. You do not want it off to one edge or the other, or a long sweep across the valve. Hope that helps.

 

[madhatta360]

Got out to the garage today to revisit the rocker setup- ended up running 2x .040” shims on each pedestal and using some comp cams 7692-16 compliments of @pittsburghracer gave me to use for mock up purposes.

Colored the valve stems, torques down shafts and Dialed in my side to side clearances, feeling good about the valve sweep after spinning the prick over by hand several times. The hot rodder in me says I’m sending it. Here we go!

 

[rumblefish360]

How wide is it?

 

[madhatta360]

How wide is it?

sweep/scrub is approx .040 across all stems

 

[madhatta360]

Anyone have to grind rockers to clear the retainers? I did the correction kit with Mike and still hitting the 1.6 rockers here you can see the imprint on the rockers and valve retainers in the attached pics. Motor is def hammering valve are adjusted, did 3 attempts on them going off the hughes chart. Running 7.775 pushrods.

Looking for feedback on trimming the rockers to make the clearance.

 

[rumblefish360]

A soft touch with a die grinder or some time with a Dremel will cure this easy enough. On the Hughes site, they offer a spec about the amount of clearance. I don’t remember what they suggested. Check the tech section.

 

[madhatta360]

A soft touch with a die grinder or some time with a Dremel will cure this easy enough. On the Hughes site, they offer a spec about the amount of clearance. I don’t remember what they suggested. Check the tech section.

Thanks rumble- this was my thought exactly I remember reading something on there about making some clearance on the rockers. Can’t post the video but man it’s noisy haha and was getting some metallic front the retainers so when I pulled the rockers I noticed it instantly. Thx