Initial upper control arm setting for newly rebuilt front suspension

[jawbone]

1968 Barracuda. QA1 upper control arms. Perter Bergman delrin lower control arm bushings. Hotchkis strut rods. New lower ball joints. Peter Bergman idler arm with bearing. Replacement pitman arm and 11/16 tie rod arms from Firm Feel.

Is there an initial starting point setting for the upper control arm eccentric bolts? Plan on having this fish towed to alignment shop due to its distance but wanted to get camber close before I buttoned everything up.

 

[OttawaCharger]

Usually you can set the front all the way outboard and the rear all the way inboard but given your aftermarket parts, that might not work. If you get a cheap caster\camber tool, you can set those pretty close to what you need.
That being said, since you're close to the alignment shop, as long as you get toe in set to practically zero, you should be fine. Toe is what scrubs tires in short order.

 

[jawbone]

Usually you can set the front all the way outboard and the rear all the way inboard but given your aftermarket parts, that might not work. If you get a cheap caster\camber tool, you can set those pretty close to what you need.
That being said, since you're close to the alignment shop, as long as you get toe in set to practically zero, you should be fine. Toe is what scrubs tires in short order.

Thanks for response. Problem is I'm not close to alignment shop. It's at least 1.5 hour drive. That's why I plan to have it trucked there. Have had issue with second gear and would like to drive it prior to the alignment to see if I fixed the issue or not. They will want to drive it I'm sure.

 

[413]

Wherever you put them will be a guess, and will be off. Camber will wear tires also.

Eyeball the camber and adjust it close, then measure and adjust the toe. Now go drive it.

 

[72bluNblu]

Thanks for response. Problem is I'm not close to alignment shop. It's at least 1.5 hour drive. That's why I plan to have it trucked there. Have had issue with second gear and would like to drive it prior to the alignment to see if I fixed the issue or not. They will want to drive it I'm sure.

The QA1 UCA’s aren’t crazy with their added geometry. I would start with the standard suggestion, front adjuster all the “out” and the rear adjuster all the way “in”, or make the front arm as long as possible and the rear arm as short as possible.

That setting maximizes positive caster. With the arms set like that, look at the angle on the wheels when they’re pointed straight ahead. Tipped in at the top of the wheels is negative camber, tipped out is positive camber. For an initial setting try to make sure they’re both close to vertical. Camber starts to become pretty obvious just looking at the wheels when you get to about 1° or beyond, so, if the wheels looks roughly vertical then the camber should be less than 1° and at that amount of camber the tire wearing component is just about non existent. I run -1° on the street and don’t have any crazy camber wear, and that’s over thousands of miles. And -1° is easily visible, the tires are noticeably tipped in at the tops.

The fastest tire wearing setting is toe, by a large margin. That’s the hard part, you’ll want like 1/16” toe in. You can roughly set that with a tape measure, but if you miss by more than an 1/8” an hour and a half drive could wear the tires.

 

[jawbone]

The QA1 UCA’s aren’t crazy with their added geometry. I would start with the standard suggestion, front adjuster all the “out” and the rear adjuster all the way “in”, or make the front arm as long as possible and the rear arm as short as possible.

That setting maximizes positive caster. With the arms set like that, look at the angle on the wheels when they’re pointed straight ahead. Tipped in at the top of the wheels is negative camber, tipped out is positive camber. For an initial setting try to make sure they’re both close to vertical. Camber starts to become pretty obvious just looking at the wheels when you get to about 1° or beyond, so, if the wheels looks roughly vertical then the camber should be less than 1° and at that amount of camber the tire wearing component is just about non existent. I run -1° on the street and don’t have any crazy camber wear, and that’s over thousands of miles. And -1° is easily visible, the tires are noticeably tipped in at the tops.

The fastest tire wearing setting is toe, by a large margin. That’s the hard part, you’ll want like 1/16” toe in. You can roughly set that with a tape measure, but if you miss by more than an 1/8” an hour and a half drive could wear the tires.

As always, thanks for your input Bryan and the way that you explain it. Makes it much easier to understand.

 

[72bluNblu]

As always, thanks for your input Bryan and the way that you explain it. Makes it much easier to understand.

No problem!

And let me emphasize, in an hour and a half drive there is really only one setting that can actually damage your tires, and it is toe.

Camber would have to be so out of whack to damage your tires that quickly that it would be ridiculously obvious. Something would have to be seriously wrong, and it would look wrong too. Caster wouldn’t do it, it could make the car pretty sketchy to handle but it wouldn’t seriously damage the tires.

Too much toe in either direction can scrub the tread right off, and it doesn’t really take much.

 

[jawbone]

No problem!

And let me emphasize, in an hour and a half drive there is really only one setting that can actually damage your tires, and it is toe.

Camber would have to be so out of whack to damage your tires that quickly that it would be ridiculously obvious. Something would have to be seriously wrong, and it would look wrong too. Caster wouldn’t do it, it could make the car pretty sketchy to handle but it wouldn’t seriously damage the tires.

Too much toe in either direction can scrub the tread right off, and it doesn’t really take much.

Thanks again.

 

[Mojoe9955]

Is 1/16" toe for both wheels...total?

 

[4spdragtop]

I tried my 1st diy toe(tape measure, broom handle)on our 67 cuda. I needed one new tire within 5-600 miles. I choose my battles now lol.

No problem!

And let me emphasize, in an hour and a half drive there is really only one setting that can actually damage your tires, and it is toe.

Camber would have to be so out of whack to damage your tires that quickly that it would be ridiculously obvious. Something would have to be seriously wrong, and it would look wrong too. Caster wouldn’t do it, it could make the car pretty sketchy to handle but it wouldn’t seriously damage the tires.

Too much toe in either direction can scrub the tread right off, and it doesn’t really take much.

 

[1WildRT]

I 100% agree with what Bryan said, to add to it for a reference you can use a carpenters level or an angle finder to verify your camber, a stick that spans from rim edge to rim edge without touching the tire and the one of these gauges can give very accurate camber readings

And here's a video of toe being set with Toe Plates.... Rather that turn plates under the tires you can use four 12" ceramic tiles, two per side, glazed face to glazed face, a little grease in between...

toe plates wheel alignment - Google Search

 

[jawbone]

Is 1/16" toe for both wheels...total?

Yes I think so.

 

[jawbone]

I 100% agree with what Bryan said, to add to it for a reference you can use a carpenters level or an angle finder to verify your camber, a stick that spans from rim edge to rim edge without touching the tire and the one of these gauges can give very accurate camber readings

View attachment 1716383866

And here's a video of toe being set with Toe Plates.... Rather that turn plates under the tires you can use four 12" ceramic tiles, two per side, glazed face to glazed face, a little grease in between...

toe plates wheel alignment - Google Search

Never seen toe plates before. I like.

 

[72bluNblu]

Is 1/16" toe for both wheels...total?

Yes, total toe.

I tried my 1st diy toe(tape measure, broom handle)on our 67 cuda. I needed one new tire within 5-600 miles. I choose my battles now lol.

Yeah it’s tricky. Using a tape measure by itself builds in error, and the margin you get before you wear tires is pretty dang small. Tape measures aren’t really meant to accurately measure below an 1/8”, and an 1/8” off with that toe can be an issue.

Never seen toe plates before. I like.

I’ve been using toe plates, and you definitely have to be careful and methodical about how you set them up. And yeah, tape measures are barely accurate enough to pull it off.

For a track only car, or low mileages where you’re gonna time out tires before you wear them out it’s fine. If you wanna get 30k on your tires it’s a pretty tricky thing to be that accurate with.

 

[Mojoe9955]

Up until recently, with this post reminding me otherwise, I believed it to be 1/8" per wheel.

 

[jawbone]

Yes, total toe.



Yeah it’s tricky. Using a tape measure by itself builds in error, and the margin you get before you wear tires is pretty dang small. Tape measures aren’t really meant to accurately measure below an 1/8”, and an 1/8” off with that toe can be an issue.



I’ve been using toe plates, and you definitely have to be careful and methodical about how you set them up. And yeah, tape measures are barely accurate enough to pull it off.

For a track only car, or low mileages where you’re gonna time out tires before you wear them out it’s fine. If you wanna get 30k on your tires it’s a pretty tricky thing to be that accurate with.

Have been contemplating purchasing the equipment to do alignment myself. The alignment shop that's not 1.5 hour drive wants 250.00 dollars to do the alignment and will need to leave the car unattended in parking lot overnight which goes against insurance stipulations. Does anyone have an opinion regarding equipment by Autosolo? Sold by Zackman Scientific.

 

[72bluNblu]

Have been contemplating purchasing the equipment to do alignment myself. The alignment shop that's not 1.5 hour drive wants 250.00 dollars to do the alignment and will need to leave the car unattended in parking lot overnight which goes against insurance stipulations. Does anyone have an opinion regarding equipment by Autosolo? Sold by Zackman Scientific.

Autosolo appears to be the same exact stuff sold under multiple different names on Amazon, often for less...

$250 is pretty expensive for a wheel alignment.

I was able to find a used set of turn plates, I think they're Hunter. Old, really heavy, indestructible. I currently use a SPC Fastrax caster/camber gauge with those, it's a single unit so no need to have a caster camber gauge and a wheel clamp.

SPC Performance 91000 SPC Performance FasTrax Camber Caster Gauges | Summit Racing

With the FasTrax, toe plates, turn plates and some practice you can get pretty accurate alignments. The turn plates can be really basic too, some people just use plastic and dish soap. Although having something with a degree indicator makes setting caster easier.

 

[Mojoe9955]

The trouble is finding a shop that wants to or knows how to work on "classic" or older cars.

 

[jawbone]

The trouble is finding a shop that wants to or knows how to work on "classic" or older cars.

That's why the 250.00 to attempt the alignment. In case.they run into trouble.

 

[jawbone]

Autosolo appears to be the same exact stuff sold under multiple different names on Amazon, often for less...

$250 is pretty expensive for a wheel alignment.

I was able to find a used set of turn plates, I think they're Hunter. Old, really heavy, indestructible. I currently use a SPC Fastrax caster/camber gauge with those, it's a single unit so no need to have a caster camber gauge and a wheel clamp.

SPC Performance 91000 SPC Performance FasTrax Camber Caster Gauges | Summit Racing

With the FasTrax, toe plates, turn plates and some practice you can get pretty accurate alignments. The turn plates can be really basic too, some people just use plastic and dish soap. Although having something with a degree indicator makes setting caster easier.

Looks like you found the equipment that works for you. I attempted at access the upper control arm eccentrics with car on the ground. The concensus is to use a ramp and elevate the rear to match height somewhat. The turn plates would be integrated into ramps. Even then, I feel it would be a beating but I really would like to do this myself after speaking to alignment shops.

 

[toolmanmike]

1968 Barracuda. QA1 upper control arms. Perter Bergman delrin lower control arm bushings. Hotchkis strut rods. New lower ball joints. Peter Bergman idler arm with bearing. Replacement pitman arm and 11/16 tie rod arms from Firm Feel.

Is there an initial starting point setting for the upper control arm eccentric bolts? Plan on having this fish towed to alignment shop due to its distance but wanted to get camber close before I buttoned everything up.

Just make the wheels look straight. Tow it and they will make all the adjustments.

 

[72bluNblu]

Looks like you found the equipment that works for you. I attempted at access the upper control arm eccentrics with car on the ground. The concensus is to use a ramp and elevate the rear to match height somewhat. The turn plates would be integrated into ramps. Even then, I feel it would be a beating but I really would like to do this myself after speaking to alignment shops.

Yeah it's not super easy, that's why professional alignment equipment uses a rack. But it can be done, I've done it more than a few times before I went to adjustable UCA's.

The Hunter turn plates are a few inches tall, I use them with a set of low profile race ramps so I can drive onto them without messing up the ride height. I also have a set of slip plates for the rear tires that elevate them about the same as the front. But the SPC UCA's I have are much easier to reach than the actual camber bolts.

I actually have a pretty complete Snap-on alignment set up from the 70's, I'm still in the process of setting it all up and calibrating it. Because of my aluminum hubs and wheels though I'm pretty much stuck with using wheel clamps anyway, so honestly I don't think the Snap-On set up will be any better for caster/camber. The optical toe gauge should be better though.

 

[1WildRT]

Yeah it's not super easy, that's why professional alignment equipment uses a rack. But it can be done, I've done it more than a few times before I went to adjustable UCA's.

The Hunter turn plates are a few inches tall, I use them with a set of low profile race ramps so I can drive onto them without messing up the ride height. I also have a set of slip plates for the rear tires that elevate them about the same as the front. But the SPC UCA's I have are much easier to reach than the actual camber bolts.

I actually have a pretty complete Snap-on alignment set up from the 70's, I'm still in the process of setting it all up and calibrating it. Because of my aluminum hubs and wheels though I'm pretty much stuck with using wheel clamps anyway, so honestly I don't think the Snap-On set up will be any better for caster/camber. The optical toe gauge should be better though.

Problem with wheel clamps is there's usually deviation in the bridge from wheel edge to wheel edge so part of using the clamps is reading the error and compensating for it.... Most electronic equipment has that built into the software...

It's more accurate to use the mag base with a platen nut off the spindle...

 

[72bluNblu]

Problem with wheel clamps is there's usually deviation in the bridge from wheel edge to wheel edge so part of using the clamps is reading the error and compensating for it.... Most electronic equipment has that built into the software...

It's more accurate to use the mag base with a platen nut off the spindle...

I’ve been able to achieve repeatable results with the SPC FasTrax that have later been confirmed within what I would consider error in just reading the bubble gauge at an alignment shop with modern equipment.

It does take a little practice, but if you take your time and pay attention to how you’re attaching it to the wheel it’s really not that hard. Not foolproof by any means, but it’s not difficult to get it right. Heck a lot of the modern alignment equipment works off of wheel clamps of some kind just because there’s a ton of non-magnetic hubs and wheels on modern cars.

Magnetic attachments aren’t foolproof either, you have to make sure they don’t pick up any little metal bits that will throw off your measurements and if you use an adapter you’re still at the mercy of the manufacturers tolerances. Plus it means several extra steps, you have to remove the wheel caps which may require removing the wheels, then you have to pull the cotter pin, remove the spindle nut and thread on the adapter. And then you’ve got to reset your bearing play after.

Definitely easier if you’ve got cast iron hubs, but I don’t!

 

[Swinger 340]

Yes, total toe.



Yeah it’s tricky. Using a tape measure by itself builds in error, and the margin you get before you wear tires is pretty dang small. Tape measures aren’t really meant to accurately measure below an 1/8”, and an 1/8” off with that toe can be an issue.



I’ve been using toe plates, and you definitely have to be careful and methodical about how you set them up. And yeah, tape measures are barely accurate enough to pull it off.

For a track only car, or low mileages where you’re gonna time out tires before you wear them out it’s fine. If you wanna get 30k on your tires it’s a pretty tricky thing to be that accurate with.

Not sure on how scientific it is, but I draw a string from the back tires toward the front and adjust the toe around 1/8 of an inch. Been driving that way for over 20 years on the roadway, not at the track and the tires seem to be wearing well. I do need to replace them now, due to their age, not wear.