Inspection of a 904 torqueflite

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Something I want to add to this for ease of use when other are shopping.

WIT TRANSMISSION website is not the easiest to navigate.
However. If we look at the exploded view of the transmission. We find number assigned to all the parts.

Like a clutch seal......which you cannot find individually anywhere outside a kit.. one of the seals is 336.....another is 337
A snap ring is 889

If you put a 12 in front of any number assigned
Like 12336 or 12889 in the search box. You can individually buy almost any part for the 904 from them.

I thought I’d share that with anyone who didn’t know.
The snap ring is .07 cents plus shipping. The governor rings seals are $1.95 and come in but joint or lock joint.

However.....my transmission has both. I’m going to replace those back there as well as the output shaft support because the ring seals dig into the support. I don’t know why it did that but it concerned me.


I think this is due to governor moving back and forth and having excessive end play. I have not found why there is so much okay here and what could be worn out yet. I don’t think it’s the snap ring. They showed op @ .050 for both transmissions and the 904 had .010 less than the 999 which was worn out. Personally....I might be chasing nothing....I don’t know but I want this to be right the first time. I also would like to know if I should re use my rings for the accumulator and rear servo or buy new ones since I’m replacing those

As far as the gear train end play. I’m going to reduce that from .30 to closer to .020

I can’t say how either of these transmissions were taken care of which is why I went to the level of rebuild I’m doing....and that includes bushings. I bought 2 sets of bushing installers all the way up to 2” and down to 3/8 of an inch. I have a press as well somtjat should help.

I wanted to make sure the journals were riding in bushings that were not worn down and closer to tolerance I can’t measure so I’m hoping for the best......and I just wanted to have the expertise of putting them in.....

so both transmissions are getting new bushings, washers, clutch frictions, gaskets and seals, 2 magnets in each pan...as well as red lined new bands

the 999 is getting a tf2, billet rear servo piston, billet accumulator, and a thicker band strut......I also bought a deeper pan with a drain plug and a filter extension as well as a transmission cooler for the front of the radiator. I’m hoping all this will help keep this thing in good shape and the fluid cool.

I’m taking my chances on the lock up converter as it’s 5 years old. It will be cleaned out with kerosene. I’m hoping the clutch isn’t worn out. The black fluid I found had to come from somewhere and the wear on the other parts might not have been enough. I’m not sure.

The lock up clutch will be automatically activated by governor pressure feeding a fuel safety cut I’ve valve connected to a relay that activates and de activated the clutch at whatever speed I think is good. Can than trailbeast for that one.

And that’s about it. It led me much farther than I thought it would and totally trashed my budget for the year but that’s how it goes. Adding a set of GtS hub caps didn’t help with that either.

I will test both transmissions and probably sell the 904 after it’s done or keep it as a back up.....but I don’t usually keep parts around.

The deal is that I know in the future how I will maintain these and what has been done to them. I know the fluid will be changed on a regular basis and the transmissions won’t ever leak while I have them. It was best to just go all out and know what I’m dealing with.
 
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You're running a used converter from a transmission that had black fluid from which you could find no source of the contamination. WAKE UP! You're going overkill on the bushings and for what? Billet this and that...give me a break! This is looking like a very good example of how NOT to approach refreshing a transmission. And you talk about not replacing all the seals? But still claim to be doing an actual rebuild? I want some of what you're smoking; not for myself but it's legal here in Cali and I could make out like a bandit.
 
One thing I need to do is check the clutch pack clearances. The wave snap rings are being replaced with flat snap rings.

Someone on here said not to go crazy tight on the clutch pack clearances.

What is crazy tight? Does that mean stay in the middle of the spec?
I am replacing the seals....all of them.

I just bought the new ring seals ten minutes ago.

As far as the converter goes.....what do you think I should do?

Test it.....replace it for the heck of it?

I know you d t talk to everyone like this. Even people that don’t know what the hell they are doing. I just saw a post where you guided someone through testing the direct clutch clearance and talked about how it gets a little side ways and throws the spec off.

That guy did way less of what was asked.

Hell.....what more can I do?

At this point I’m not refreshing it. I’m basically replacing about everything that’ could be worn out.


I guess I could just buy a new converter just in case.
 
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I’m replacing the bushings ......not because they are worn out..

Because I’ve just never done it and I want to have the experience for when it’s necessary. This isn’t my last transmission I’m going to do. I can see the bushings aren’t really worn or scored up....well some of them are scored up but not bad.

You gotta remember ..

I’ve never done this before.....I wanted to do them ......just for the hell of it.
 
Well, "just for the hell of it" gets old real quick when your converter clutch is worn out and you're kicking yourself for not replacing it. The direct drum bushing is probably a good idea to replace because they are notorious for wobbling. You have a very long way to go and I've seen folks get burnt out and start assembling parts and overlooking necessary steps. Yes I help "even people who don't know what the hell they are doing"...of which you are one.
 
I’m not gonna get burned out.

I’ll walk away from it for a week and come back to it.
I don’t know that the converter clutch is worn out. A 5 year old converter isn’t that old. The other one was 43 years old and the only reason it failed was because the hub cracked.

The clutch packs were also 43 and while they were pretty trashed they still had life in them.

I just figured that the new converter would last longer and maybe all that black was break in where the owner just didn’t change the fluid and get all that break in material out of there.

Your right.....I don’t know....
But I’m learning really quickly and hoping for the best.
 
From what I saw.....the bands and clutches weren’t worn bad

The selective washer was worn....the thrust washers were worn
But the stuff in the magnet could have been normal and that might have made the fluid black

Whoever owned that van.....didn’t care about it whatsoever. They were NOT the type to change break in fluid and they were probably on stronger drugs than your taking about

ON this transmission and the 904....I’ll do the bushings.
If I didn’t want to..

I would replace 3 of them. Direct, pump bushing and output shaft. The others I would leave alone.....
 
"But the stuff in the magnet could have been normal and that might have made the fluid black." NO. I would have said so. Black fluid is a BIG deal. We will deal with the necessary steps that people miss when we come to them.
 
Are you thinking that converter is bad. I can’t see anything else that’s worn down that much.

The planets are not perfect but the ring gear Is and we inspected the planets.

That output shaft is dug out pretty good. The bands have some flaking.....
Selective washer is ground down and the thrust washers have material removed.
One of the frictions has wear.

Could all that wear combined and no fluid change cause that to be black

And.......compared to the 904..

That reverse drum is about .050 lower in thickness on the 999.
So either that reverse drum was changed in design. Or it went through hell. It shows no signs of hot spots. I can’t find pictures that showed a difference well enough and I can’t find size specs on them....I brought it up a lot and figured if you guys didn’t think it was off then maybe it was just made smaller than the 904

That’s all I can think of besides the converter that I can’t see

And why did they go from cast iron sealing rings on the accumulator to a soft sealing ring.
Which one is better?
The 904 is the cast iron and the 999 is maybe a Teflon style ring. The 999 doesn’t compress as well. The new accumulator has double info in the softer style so maybe it’s better.
 
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I called the converter company that remanufactured the converter.

The guy told me a couple of things. He said that the 904 hub cracks because of kick back on ignition timing when the car gets shut off. It puts some kind of load on the converter snout over time and cracks it.

He told me that the converter was good up to 300hp and has the 1800-2100 stall in it more than likely.

I asked him wha the chances were if it being trashed at the lock up clutch in a matter of 5 years with very little mileage. He said that where the flex plate bolts to the converter. The paint would be gone and there would be a blue color from over heating. He thought the converter was fine.

He said I could test at least the lock up clutch by putting the reaction shaft onto the converter and using compressed air to engage it.......then use a pry bar in the hub....sideways and try to at least turn it by hand. If the lock up material was gone it would spin freely and if it wasn’t it should give resistance. Said that if i install it. I should know pretty quickly if it’s messed up but would be better tested in the car going up a hill in lock up Or slowing down and seeing if the car dies.

The guy at the transmission shop said that a lot of the black fluid was probably coming from the reverse drum being so worn and it was possibly put on there too tight. Said it looks like a new reverse band from the rebuild but the drum was not replaced on the rebuild. I don’t know...... As I’ve not seen the reverse drum from another 999. I guess I’m just going to replace it. I have a measure that on both drums..

He also told me the cast iron rings are better than the Teflon as they produce less wear but the Teflon seal better and in my case it makes no difference
 
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Direct drum 999

the old frictions show .086 and are not worn at all.
The new ones have not been saturated in transmission fluid and spec out at .084.
I’m sure this is the right set from raybestos......that’s .010 difference between all 5 of them.

How much does this matter if at all

Do they swell up to .086???

The clearance with the new clutch packs shows .082
If they do swell up that’s .072 and shows too tight as the spec is .075 on the low end.

I am trying to figure out which flat washer to put in there
 
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Sounds like a bunch of bs to me. Black fluid from a worn drum? What worn drum? You're really asking some voice on the phone if your converter is any good? SERIOUSLY?? A lock up converter should give "resistance"? How about a "resistance" of about 500 foot pounds? Always pressurize a new clutch pack before you check clearance.
 
The old clutches spec out fine .086 clutches

The new ones don’t but the part number is right....they are .084 clutches

Each clutch was measured individually

Both tested with a .061 snap ring

The clearance of the .086 clutches were .075
The clearance of the .084 clutches were .085
 
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I think running the .084 clutch set will be fine. Maybe when it saturates it will gain about .002. I’ll find out when I put it in some fluid

The clutches that came out of the old worn 904 were way smaller than that. They were .062-.075 and it was still running with them trashed..so I think this new set will be fine.

The new forward clutch friction set was also around .003 less than the original I took out of it. They are .057 and the old ones were .061

The steels all measure correctly @ .068

The clearance under the snap ring was .043 on the 999 forward clutch set.
A problem could be that with .057 replacement clutch pack instead of the .061 that it should be. This could put it out of spec on the loose side.
 
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I don't know wth you're even talking about most of the time. Just when I think I understand...there's new info that doesn't match the old. Waved retainer rings are to soften engagement. .084 frictions in the direct will have to do if they're not hp, you could run smooth red eagles in the direct and add one more since it's okay to run the .061 in there. That would be six directs in the 999. Oem's can't take the heat so they're thicker and grooved. Don't go thinking that either one of these transs were assembled correctly. Sounds like "some people somewhere did some things" to both these transmissions..Is dude coming over to your house to help r&r the 999 when turns out the converter is junk?
 
CudaFactHackJob said:
I don't know wth you're even talking about most of the time. Just when I think I understand...there's new info that doesn't match the old. Waved retainer rings are to soften engagement. .084 frictions in the direct will have to do if they're not hp, you could run smooth red eagles in the direct and add one more since it's okay to run the .061 in there. That would be six directs in the 999. Oem's can't take the heat so they're thicker and grooved. Don't go thinking that either one of these transs were assembled correctly. Sounds like "some people somewhere did some things" to both these transmissions..Is dude coming over to your house to help r&r the 999 when turns out the converter is junk?
Click to expand...

If you read post #187 he clearly says he is replacing the converter.
 
I even tried reading between the lines and still didn't see any clear statement about replacing the converter in #187, or any other post.
 
glhx said:
The guy at the transmission shop said that a lot of the black fluid was probably coming from the reverse drum being so worn and it was possibly put on there too tight. Said it looks like a new reverse band from the rebuild but the drum was not replaced on the rebuild. I don’t know...... As I’ve not seen the reverse drum from another 999. I guess I’m just going to replace it. I have a measure that on both drums..
Click to expand...
 
Isn't he talking about the reverse drum; not the converter? I don't see the word converter in that quote. You could be right tho; I'm having a tuff time following this thread what with the switching terminology.
 
I could be wrong, but I'm not so sure that drum isn't supposed to have a step. I just checked on a tf drum on my shelf and it had a huge step, but I don't remember exactly what it's out of. Maybe an A500.
 
CudaFactHackJob said:
I could be wrong, but I'm not so sure that drum isn't supposed to have a step. I just checked on a tf drum on my shelf and it had a huge step, but I don't remember exactly what it's out of. Maybe an A500.
Click to expand...

On the 904......from the front of the drum. It steps up
On the 999.....it steps down. It not being burned has me thinking it’s original but I go back and forth.

If .050 wore that thing down.
It wouldn’t be smooth if the reverse band wore it down. It would be grooved and have hot spots if it was naturally worn down that much.

The converter is going to be rebuilt by a company up the road.
 
Do the clutches swell up to spec when saturated. If not....I’ll send them back to raybestos and see if they can get me some new ones

By the way rusty.....new Hampton just this week started supplying the local autozne. It’s cheaper to buy one from autozone than to have my redone by them

They want $150
 
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