glhx
Well-Known Member
Also....is that .023 what wore the output shaft support?
The spec ends at .025
.0004-.025 is the range.
The spec ends at .025
.0004-.025 is the range.
Inspection of a 904 torqueflite
- Thread starter glhx
- Start date
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glhx
Well-Known Member
What makes the output shaft support west that way
I assumed it was the governor play.
All arrows mean the back and forth in that direction
I figured the governor moving back and forth with the sajng rings expanded
Was what caused that wear
I assumed it was the governor play.
All arrows mean the back and forth in that direction
I figured the governor moving back and forth with the sajng rings expanded
Was what caused that wear
Duane
Well-Known Member
From your pictures it is still hard to tell what you are looking at.
If the sealing rings have worn a groove into the output support, that could be normal wear. The play that you measured between the governor is just manufacturing tolerance imho. There is nothing there that should wear. The governor assembly just controls your hydraulics to to the trans when to shift. It is not a load bearing part.
I am waiting to see you inspect the roller clutch bearing and the journal of the output support where the low/reverse drum spins to see if there is damage there.
glhx
Well-Known Member
I took a quick look at the roller clutch. I spun it and looked at the surface area. think it's in great shape. I have not taken it out yet.
The movement of that reverse drum stops at the machine line
The movement of that reverse drum stops at the machine line
glhx
Well-Known Member
I did the best I could with the lighting. This is some of the wear.
I personally don’t see any red flags
Rear planet ring hear -
-
Rear planet journal -
Rear planet teeth -
Front sun gear......looks ok-
Rear planet ring gear-
Thrust washer wear-
Rear planets-
Rear planets -
Rear sun gear -
Rear planet ring gear thrust washer surface and teeth-
reverse drum -
Rear planet gear -
I personally don’t see any red flags
Rear planet ring hear -
-
Rear planet journal -
Rear planet teeth -
Front sun gear......looks ok-
Rear planet ring gear-
Thrust washer wear-
Rear planets-
Rear planets -
Rear sun gear -
Rear planet ring gear thrust washer surface and teeth-
reverse drum -
Rear planet gear -
glhx
Well-Known Member
Over running clutch-
This spins fine.....looks fine. I have not taken it out yet. I’m sure it’s fine. Of course it’s going to be replaced....at least the springs and bearings?
Clutch hub teeth.....look fine. Better than the 904 does-
Reverse drum-
thrust washer-
ANOTHER REAR sun shell.....-
Inside reverse drum where the rear planet ring gear sits-
Selective washer. .125 on one side.....
.122 on the other side. The high spec on this is .125-
Front planet wear.
The side clearance is good and no wobble on any part of either planets front or backplanet gears -
Thrust washer .049.......in spec-
Front planet gear -
Finger nail catch on the reverse drum-
Front planet thrust washer -
Output shaft journal -
Reverse drum-
Sealing rings.....the housing these fit into has little wear in the direct clutch -
Output shaft support.....wear on the front sealing ring race -
glhx
Well-Known Member
glhx
Well-Known Member
Aside from what I THINK .....is reverse drum wear.....and it didn’t go down into the un machined area. It stayed worn on its machined path
I see nothing wrong with this transmission.
The fluid is black and that metal comes from somewhere.
I just don’t know where. Of course I cannot see the torque converter.
I would not think.....looking at that reverse drum....that it would create chips like that. Maybe the snap ring being dug into?
I haven’t posted pictures of the clutch packs yet. They are good
I see nothing wrong with this transmission.
The fluid is black and that metal comes from somewhere.
I just don’t know where. Of course I cannot see the torque converter.
I would not think.....looking at that reverse drum....that it would create chips like that. Maybe the snap ring being dug into?
I haven’t posted pictures of the clutch packs yet. They are good
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glhx
Well-Known Member
Direct clutch bushing and seal ring surface -
Seal ring surface -
Direct clutch kickdown surface-
Direct clutch busing -
And.....here is a problem. Look at that damn magnet-
All that metal in the top corner -
I mean......black as I’ve ever seen-
Don’t know a lot about this yet. -
What caused this to trash that fluid like that?
Duane
Well-Known Member
The fingernail catch on the low/reverse drum I beleive is where the machining path stops. It is normal that is a raised section left where the drive lugs from the rear planetary lugs engage. The rear band will not ride in the area where your finger is catching.
I would not say that metal on the magnet is not normal. That is precisely why the magnet is there, to keep metal fragments from recirculating. The trans looks good from what I can tell.
The black fluid could be from a burned up torque converter clutch that failed.
CudaFactHackJob
Well-Known Member
The output shaft support that has ring wear...it's junk. If your bands are black they're junk too. Dark brown is fine. But no flaking. Low reverse drum looks good but where was all that end play comming from?
glhx
Well-Known Member
The finger nail catch. It is at the end of the machined path on the 999.
But On the 904. That machined path sits higher on the right side than it does on the left.
The reverse drum play.....my 904 has it as well. I’m going to put together both of them and look closer into why the reverse drum slides 1/4” or a little less.....off of the sun gear. Or it’s the reverse drum sliding off the rear planet. Not sure which.
How can I test a failed converter before installing it? Can I use air to manually activate the clutch and test for resistance in the stator and rotating assemblies?
I have seen that much before on the magnet when changing fluid. You right. It doesn’t take much to get them to look like that.
The metal on the filter was my major concern. That could be from the snap ring like you said....they dig out and leave metal in the system.
I can inspect every part......but not the converter. It’s dated on the front and stamped on the back 5/2014....doesn’t mean it didn’t fail.
I’ve never rebuilt one of these....but I have changed fluid and have seen particles and metal in the pan before. Of course.....there are the teeth on the Simpson set......but wouldn’t they present powder metal like on the magnet as opposed to bigger chips like in the filter.
I want to say when I changed the fluid in the 904.....I found stuff like that as well. Same situation but the fluid wasn’t as dirty.
But in saying that. If this was redone 5 years ago. The fluid should not look like that....at least I don’t think so..
Not unless some wear is going on that’s in natural. You would know about that more than I would.
Ill put the output shaft support and the output shaft itself from the 904 in this one.
Those bands are both black. I’ll replace them as well
But On the 904. That machined path sits higher on the right side than it does on the left.
The reverse drum play.....my 904 has it as well. I’m going to put together both of them and look closer into why the reverse drum slides 1/4” or a little less.....off of the sun gear. Or it’s the reverse drum sliding off the rear planet. Not sure which.
How can I test a failed converter before installing it? Can I use air to manually activate the clutch and test for resistance in the stator and rotating assemblies?
I have seen that much before on the magnet when changing fluid. You right. It doesn’t take much to get them to look like that.
The metal on the filter was my major concern. That could be from the snap ring like you said....they dig out and leave metal in the system.
I can inspect every part......but not the converter. It’s dated on the front and stamped on the back 5/2014....doesn’t mean it didn’t fail.
I’ve never rebuilt one of these....but I have changed fluid and have seen particles and metal in the pan before. Of course.....there are the teeth on the Simpson set......but wouldn’t they present powder metal like on the magnet as opposed to bigger chips like in the filter.
I want to say when I changed the fluid in the 904.....I found stuff like that as well. Same situation but the fluid wasn’t as dirty.
But in saying that. If this was redone 5 years ago. The fluid should not look like that....at least I don’t think so..
Not unless some wear is going on that’s in natural. You would know about that more than I would.
Ill put the output shaft support and the output shaft itself from the 904 in this one.
Those bands are both black. I’ll replace them as well
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Duane
Well-Known Member
glhx
Well-Known Member
What I can do in reply to that is to check the hear train end p,at by putting all the planets on the put put shaft. I think that’s one of the two necessary for the 999 and 904. The overdrive trans has the third measurement with the special tool
I did measure the total end play at .030
I measured gear train end play in the 904....but not the 999 yet.
I’ll see how that goes.
Could the reverse band have been adjusted too tight and worn...,but wouldn’t that also creat hot spots. The there aren’t any on the reverse drum
With the 904....I could have put a shift kit in and if anything went wrong I would point to that or be able to sort through it as I knew it has 0 drivability problems.
This 999 I’m wary to change two things at once....like thrust washers and such.....and add a trans go at the same time...
Because I don’t know what went wrong with it to create that metal and that reverse drum wear in the first place.
Like he said.....maybe using low gear to compensate for something.
It could have also been done before the trans rebuild.....we can assume it was rebuilt 5 years ago due to the clutch packs being newer.
Doesn’t mean it didn’t trash the reverse drum then and they just didn’t buy a new one. I wouldn’t do that but that doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t.
I think the kick down band is aftermarket. It’s not form fitted. It’s more like a flex band.
All I can do is follow protocol and check clearances and play. Put it back in spec in every way I can and hope for the best.
I was confident with the 904.....this one I’m less so.
The converter....I’ll also check that the best I can as well. I saw some you tube tutorials on how people check the lock up clutches and the rotating parts.
I did measure the total end play at .030
I measured gear train end play in the 904....but not the 999 yet.
I’ll see how that goes.
Could the reverse band have been adjusted too tight and worn...,but wouldn’t that also creat hot spots. The there aren’t any on the reverse drum
With the 904....I could have put a shift kit in and if anything went wrong I would point to that or be able to sort through it as I knew it has 0 drivability problems.
This 999 I’m wary to change two things at once....like thrust washers and such.....and add a trans go at the same time...
Because I don’t know what went wrong with it to create that metal and that reverse drum wear in the first place.
Like he said.....maybe using low gear to compensate for something.
It could have also been done before the trans rebuild.....we can assume it was rebuilt 5 years ago due to the clutch packs being newer.
Doesn’t mean it didn’t trash the reverse drum then and they just didn’t buy a new one. I wouldn’t do that but that doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t.
I think the kick down band is aftermarket. It’s not form fitted. It’s more like a flex band.
All I can do is follow protocol and check clearances and play. Put it back in spec in every way I can and hope for the best.
I was confident with the 904.....this one I’m less so.
The converter....I’ll also check that the best I can as well. I saw some you tube tutorials on how people check the lock up clutches and the rotating parts.
Duane
Well-Known Member
Both posters advising you have told you that the rear drum looks fine.
Yes the band may not have been adjusted correct.
Beware of the overdrive section. It has a big spring in there with 800lbs of force. You need a hydraulic press to take it apart.
Make sure you know what you are doing or you could get seriously hurt. Watch some YouTube videos on the overdrive sections.
glhx
Well-Known Member
Is the sprag clutch and reverse drum different between the 904 and the 999?
It also looks like the output shaft support on the 999 is a little stronger....more structure supports on it
From what I see. This reverse drum looks like it was made that way. I’m curious as to if they are different or if that’s wear.
I’m guessing even though the reverse drum is worn a bit. I can just tighten up the band a little more and it should be fine? I’m going to reuse it.....but still yet.....
Why.....is the trans fluid black as it is? I see literally no wear on anything but the thrust washers and barely.....snap ring like normal wear. Nothing I see could have caused this much metal. Even the output shaft support.....all of it collectively maybe. All that is left is the torque converter.
I’ve learned enough about the hard parts of this to start looking at parts and putting it back together.
I’m not going to replace the clutch piston seals....I’ll check the clearances but I’m guessing they are fine. I’m not replacing any bushings.....except maybe the front but it looks ok. All I can see that this needs is some gaskets and adjustment. I will replace the thrust washers. And put a tf2 in it.
Also.....I see this one wire device coming out of the transmission. I’m guessing it runs the torque converter clutch. Will I just have to wire 12+ to a toggle switch and switch the torque converter clutch manually or is there something I can buy to run that automatically. I pulled as much of the wiring as I could. It went I t the vans interior at the firewall somewhere. I’m guessing some computer. The van was carburetor with a 2 barrel so there was no fuel injection.
Maybe a lean burn system at best but I saw nothing implicating that. I should have followed the wire to the end but it was stupid how and that trans took 3 hours to get out without a hydraulic jack
Also....the gear train end play was .025
Still in the middle of spec.
I can find nothing wrong with this transmission......
It also looks like the output shaft support on the 999 is a little stronger....more structure supports on it
From what I see. This reverse drum looks like it was made that way. I’m curious as to if they are different or if that’s wear.
I’m guessing even though the reverse drum is worn a bit. I can just tighten up the band a little more and it should be fine? I’m going to reuse it.....but still yet.....
Why.....is the trans fluid black as it is? I see literally no wear on anything but the thrust washers and barely.....snap ring like normal wear. Nothing I see could have caused this much metal. Even the output shaft support.....all of it collectively maybe. All that is left is the torque converter.
I’ve learned enough about the hard parts of this to start looking at parts and putting it back together.
I’m not going to replace the clutch piston seals....I’ll check the clearances but I’m guessing they are fine. I’m not replacing any bushings.....except maybe the front but it looks ok. All I can see that this needs is some gaskets and adjustment. I will replace the thrust washers. And put a tf2 in it.
Also.....I see this one wire device coming out of the transmission. I’m guessing it runs the torque converter clutch. Will I just have to wire 12+ to a toggle switch and switch the torque converter clutch manually or is there something I can buy to run that automatically. I pulled as much of the wiring as I could. It went I t the vans interior at the firewall somewhere. I’m guessing some computer. The van was carburetor with a 2 barrel so there was no fuel injection.
Maybe a lean burn system at best but I saw nothing implicating that. I should have followed the wire to the end but it was stupid how and that trans took 3 hours to get out without a hydraulic jack
Also....the gear train end play was .025
Still in the middle of spec.
I can find nothing wrong with this transmission......
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Duane
Well-Known Member
In my experience everything is a little beefier in the 999.
I am not sure what year, but the sprag changed from a 10 element to a 12 element. The low/reverse drums are interchangeable, but some 999 drums have a ring around the area where you are catching your fingernail. That's how I know it is just the end of the machining. The band does not ride there. It would be very unusual for the reverse drum and reverse band to be worn because in normal driving they are hardly ever used and it is not a shifting band.
I sent you a link about the black trans fluid. It explains that those trans with the overdrive, burn up the overdrive clutches and turn the fluid black.
glhx
Well-Known Member
It talked about the over drive a lot. But this doesn’t have an over drive. It has the lock up clutch. Is that what they are talking about?
And if that’s the case....maybe it needs to be replaced. I’ve already got the information how to electrically activate it automatically
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Duane
Well-Known Member
No, I thought you had an overdrive unit there.
Duane
Well-Known Member
I would not worry about the black fluid. The main thing is to inspect everything and start with a fresh build. Make sure everything is right, and go from there. The rear band could have been adjusted wrong and was dragging or something.
glhx
Well-Known Member
On that reverse drum. The machined vs the non machined side. There is onLay .050 difference.
The 904 drum is what I’ll probably use as it’s the same. It has .080 more metal on the machined side than the 999 does. Not much difference for what it is and what it does
I wish I had an over drive transmission lol. I think I’ll stick to this one for now.
I’m looking for a rigid kickdown band. I’ve seen the Kevlar ones but I’ve also seen to stay away from them outside of a performance application.
There are a lot to choose from...
Flex
Relined
Semi rigid
Wide band with single friction
Kevlar
All different prices for both the reverse and kickdown
I saw a very small chip in both so I’m replacing them.
The 904 drum is what I’ll probably use as it’s the same. It has .080 more metal on the machined side than the 999 does. Not much difference for what it is and what it does
I wish I had an over drive transmission lol. I think I’ll stick to this one for now.
I’m looking for a rigid kickdown band. I’ve seen the Kevlar ones but I’ve also seen to stay away from them outside of a performance application.
There are a lot to choose from...
Flex
Relined
Semi rigid
Wide band with single friction
Kevlar
All different prices for both the reverse and kickdown
I saw a very small chip in both so I’m replacing them.
Duane
Well-Known Member
I have heard that Kevlar can shift very aggressively.
For a street car you will probably be fine with just a relined band.
I like solid bands too. But I buy them because they are stronger..
But my application also warrants it. My race carat 600 hp and my diesel truck.
glhx
Well-Known Member
One thing I just found out.
Alabama bands does not have a website anymore.
They do however still reline and sell bands directly
They have a phone number you can call.
The prices of the bands were much lower than what else I found.
I got 4 bands for the price of one
Reverse double wrap was $5 with red lining or a lining of your choice
The other two were like $3.75
Shipping....I don’t know yet.
I looked at the kickdown band for the a999
It was a Raybestos made in 2014 and is a flex band. The quality seems ok. The 904 more narrow band is a factory band and is rigid. It has cast lugs and seems much higher quality
Did the 999 or 500 come out with rigid bands from the factory?
I would have had it relined if it did. I will have the 904 relined if they don’t have an exact replacement.
I’ve decided to rebuild the 904 and refresh the 999 at the same time.
What place sells rigid kickdown bands for the 999.
I saw one possibly from tci but it was like $50.
I did go ahead and get the Sonnax billet reverse servo. The piston and whatever that thing is that activates it. I will be using the original sealing rings.
If you all see any red flags let me know. I’m not replacing any of the cast sealing rings on any of these transmissions. They seem ok. I think if the 904 sealing rings were bad or worn it would have more wear in the output shaft support.
As far as the 999 output shaft support. That could have been from before it was rebuilt and caused by whatever reason it was rebuilt. That supports will be replaced. I think the governor housing play might have caused that. It’s .010 more than the 904 that had no wear.
The spec is like .004 on the low end....so these things can be tight.
I’d like to find selective snap rings to tighten some of this up. So far I have not found one set from A&A....
One thing of note......
The forward clutch splines of the 999 match the forward clutch splines of the 904. I thought the 999 forward clutch splines were longer.
So either these are both the longer ones....or they are both the shorter ones
Alabama bands does not have a website anymore.
They do however still reline and sell bands directly
They have a phone number you can call.
The prices of the bands were much lower than what else I found.
I got 4 bands for the price of one
Reverse double wrap was $5 with red lining or a lining of your choice
The other two were like $3.75
Shipping....I don’t know yet.
I looked at the kickdown band for the a999
It was a Raybestos made in 2014 and is a flex band. The quality seems ok. The 904 more narrow band is a factory band and is rigid. It has cast lugs and seems much higher quality
Did the 999 or 500 come out with rigid bands from the factory?
I would have had it relined if it did. I will have the 904 relined if they don’t have an exact replacement.
I’ve decided to rebuild the 904 and refresh the 999 at the same time.
What place sells rigid kickdown bands for the 999.
I saw one possibly from tci but it was like $50.
I did go ahead and get the Sonnax billet reverse servo. The piston and whatever that thing is that activates it. I will be using the original sealing rings.
If you all see any red flags let me know. I’m not replacing any of the cast sealing rings on any of these transmissions. They seem ok. I think if the 904 sealing rings were bad or worn it would have more wear in the output shaft support.
As far as the 999 output shaft support. That could have been from before it was rebuilt and caused by whatever reason it was rebuilt. That supports will be replaced. I think the governor housing play might have caused that. It’s .010 more than the 904 that had no wear.
The spec is like .004 on the low end....so these things can be tight.
I’d like to find selective snap rings to tighten some of this up. So far I have not found one set from A&A....
One thing of note......
The forward clutch splines of the 999 match the forward clutch splines of the 904. I thought the 999 forward clutch splines were longer.
So either these are both the longer ones....or they are both the shorter ones
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glhx
Well-Known Member
This was done by hot rod magazine.....he’s upgrading to the 5 drum clutch and went with longer forward clutch splines-
You can see in the picture that one is slightly longer than the other.
However......my 904 and 999 have the same height on these
1.30 on both
1.30 on both of these -
So why are they the same. The 904 has 4 clutch drums
The 999 has 5/4
The direct drum should slide into this piece. Either I have both long ones or both short ones. Since this was gone through. Maybe they replaced it with the wrong one or could it have come like that from the factory. Maybe it doesn’t matter. I don’t know.
I guess this is where the learning process comes in
What should he measurements of these splines be?
Duane
Well-Known Member
I beleive the length of the short spline is 1 inch and the long is 1 1/8. Remember you can not interchange the forward clutch drums.
If you measure the snout part that goes into the stator they will measure .060 different with the lockup one measuring bigger.
A&A trans sells solid wider bands for the direct drums. They also sell selective snap rings for the gear train and the clutch packs.
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