Is Torque King?

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ntsqd said:
By your own definition HP is time-valued. Therefore HP is not work, it is work done over some time span. We see this in the calculation for HP; take the amount of work that can be done (torque) and multiply it by time (Revolutions Per Minute).
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Horsepower (hp) is the name of several units of measurement of power, the rate at which work is done.


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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/horsepower.htm
 
So we're in violent agreement. HP is the rate at which the work can be done and TQ is the amount of work that can be done.
Having a lot of rate, but not a lot of ability to do work means that a little bit of work can be done really fast (F1 car). Having a lot of ability to do work, but not a lot of rate means that a whole lot of work can be done, just not very fast (OTR big rig). Somewhere in the middle are most IC engines.

Now if the OP weren't so married to his position that reason might penetrate.
 
ntsqd said:
So we're in violent agreement. HP is the rate at which the work can be done and TQ is the amount of work that can be done.
Having a lot of rate, but not a lot of ability to do work means that a little bit of work can be done really fast (F1 car). Having a lot of ability to do work, but not a lot of rate means that a whole lot of work can be done, just not very fast (OTR big rig). Somewhere in the middle are most IC engines.

Now if the OP weren't so married to his position that reason might penetrate.
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If you don't do any work, then you are not exerting power.

You have to do work to exert power.


Power is the rate at which work is done.
 
Everyone agrees that work is work and power is power, torque from a mechanical engineering standpoint is not just the pressure but the movement. From a physics standpoint you could have torque without movement but that is not the kind of torque we are talking about, we are talking about torque as a measure of work which does require the movement. Now adding in the horsepower part does add the rate of the work but just using the peak value is only useful in a cup car that spends it's whole life at that number. For acceleration you need to know the torque at every rpm. You are accelerating in. If you are so set on using the HP number then fine look at horsepower at every rpm you accelerate from and to, the peak value only counts for an instant. Still the torque is really what you are feeling here. 400 foot pounds accelerates at twice the rate of 200 ft lbs weather the motor is at 2000 rpm or 8000 rpm. So yes you are making more power at the higher rpms doing work at a faster rate, but without the work done to get you to that power, or the power done earlier getting up to speed, the guy in the other lane may have already crossed the finishing line if the contest is acceleration not top speed.
Sure small displacement motors can be quick but there is a reason classes are almost always based on displacement and even at the highest levels they put a cap on the max displacement.
 
ntsqd said:
So we're in violent agreement. HP is the rate at which the work can be done and TQ is the amount of work that can be done.
Having a lot of rate, but not a lot of ability to do work means that a little bit of work can be done really fast (F1 car). Having a lot of ability to do work, but not a lot of rate means that a whole lot of work can be done, just not very fast (OTR big rig). Somewhere in the middle are most IC engines.

Now if the OP weren't so married to his position that reason might penetrate.
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I agree with the rest exactly except RPM is the rate at which work can be done and Torque is the amount of work that can be done in one period together equals Horsepower.
Rate X Amount / 5252 = work over time

Look at it this way you got two shovels (torque)
And one twice the size of the other and two guys are digging a holes the guy with the smaller shovel is digging twice as fast (RPM ) as the other guy he's gonna move the same amount of dirt over time.

Now you got two one cylinder engines and one is twice the size of the other and each power stroke they make X amount of torque in one period of time. The one twice as large should make twice the torque as the other so the smaller has to do two power strokes to do the same work as other to do the same amount of work over time.
 
Hersbird said:
Everyone agrees that work is work and power is power, torque from a mechanical engineering standpoint is not just the pressure but the movement. From a physics standpoint you could have torque without movement but that is not the kind of torque we are talking about, we are talking about torque as a measure of work which does require the movement.
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Torque is the combined power stroke of all 8 cylinders in one period of time.


Hersbird said:
Still the torque is really what you are feeling here. 400 foot pounds accelerates at twice the rate of 200 ft lbs weather the motor is at 2000 rpm or 8000 rpm.
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Let's say thought almost practicality impossible say you got two 2 stroke engines and one that only can do one rpm makes 400 lbs ft and the other that only does two rpm makes 200 lbs ft both can do the same amount of work in one minute (hp= work over time) 1st engine take one revolution to do it and the 2 nd engine takes two revolutions to do it.
 
^^ It might be basic info but most people got it wrong and give misguided advise the cost people real world dollars $$$

So i might be beating a dead horse so I might as well beat a little more lol

From I get from most of what is being said back to me is Torque is the amount of work being done and Horsepower is the rate of it being done???

If put in electrical terms that's like say Amps (torque) is the amount of electrons (work) and Watts (HP) is the rate they travel through the circuit. And Volts like RPM is a by product that don't seem to mean much.

But like the formula for HP Watt (HP) = Amp (Torque) X Volts (RPM)

Everyone seem to be confusing HP with rate of work instead of Rpm which is the rate of work.
 
"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.." Proverbs 26:4

Uh, dont argue with someone that doesn't know ****, its embarrassing.
 
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


― George Carlin
 
273 said:
^^ It might be basic info but most people got it wrong and give misguided advise the cost people real world dollars $$$

So i might be beating a dead horse so I might as well beat a little more lol

From I get from most of what is being said back to me is Torque is the amount of work being done and Horsepower is the rate of it being done???

If put in electrical terms that's like say Amps (torque) is the amount of electrons (work) and Watts (HP) is the rate they travel through the circuit. And Volts like RPM is a by product that don't seem to mean much.

But like the formula for HP Watt (HP) = Amp (Torque) X Volts (RPM)

Everyone seem to be confusing HP with rate of work instead of Rpm which is the rate of work.
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Ok, apparently this whole concept is above your head and below your feet... :banghead:


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273 said:
I agree with the rest exactly except RPM is the rate at which work can be done and Torque is the amount of work that can be done in one period together equals Horsepower.
Rate X Amount / 5252 = work over time

Look at it this way you got two shovels (torque)
And one twice the size of the other and two guys are digging a holes the guy with the smaller shovel is digging twice as fast (RPM ) as the other guy he's gonna move the same amount of dirt over time.

Now you got two one cylinder engines and one is twice the size of the other and each power stroke they make X amount of torque in one period of time. The one twice as large should make twice the torque as the other so the smaller has to do two power strokes to do the same work as other to do the same amount of work over time.
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Why did you ask this question, if you are not going to listen to what people are telling you? :wack:

You obviously have YOUR OWN idea of what torque and horsepower is and are not willing to listen to what we are trying to tell you. You keep twisting it into what you think is reality, but it isn't. We cannot help you if you have a closed mind. :banghead:

Go take a physics class or read a physics book. You have had more than one engineer try to explain it to you and still not have grasped the concept.... :violent1:


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Here is my dyno sheet for my daily driver....not it was breaking down up the top end....it's an ignition problem through wiring for the ECU earths....apparently....yet to be fixed.
Also is the picture of the tested engine....a 4.0 litre, 6 cylinder, MPFI.
It has power steering, a/c and an engine driven fan....5sp T5 manual, 3.27 diff gears with 235/60R15 tyres.

The difference in the 2 readings is one stock cam for another stock cam.
First cam is an '88 EA LM MPFI cam, and the next was a '95 EF XR6 BBM MPFI cam.
 

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I forgot to mention, the car is a '93 ED .....original unopened bottom end....has an '88 EA head, ED rocker gear with the '95 EF XR6 cam.
 
krazykuda said:
Why did you ask this question, if you are not going to listen to what people are telling you? :wack:

You obviously have YOUR OWN idea of what torque and horsepower is and are not willing to listen to what we are trying to tell you. You keep twisting it into what you think is reality, but it isn't. We cannot help you if you have a closed mind. :banghead:

Go take a physics class or read a physics book. You have had more than one engineer try to explain it to you and still not have grasped the concept.... :violent1:


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I don't know why you need to be insulting but anyways

One I never asked a question, in my original post there is no question just a statement to show Torque and RPM are equals to each other when it comes to work an engine can do. The only question I posed was in the title of the thread "Is Torque King?" Maybe should of called it "Rpm and Torque are Equal" when come to an engines ability.
This was never meant to be a torque vs HP thread.

So unless you can show me how RPM has no ability or part in doing work over time I'm not ever gonna change my mind.


Work(torque) over (X) Time (rpm)= HP
Work (accelerate down at 1/4 mile) over Time (e.t.) =hp
Etc...
 
Im no physics engineer, so Im trying to dumb it down in my mind so I can relate.
Cant it simpy be stated that this in essence is a formula/equation?
For example 3x8=24....well you can write that equation a multitude of ways to arrive at the product??(24). 2x12, 4x6, 1x24?? When you have a product that is constant, then obviously the other parts are the variables??
 
4spdragtop said:
Im no physics engineer, so Im trying to dumb it down in my mind so I can relate.
Cant it simpy be stated that this in essence is a formula/equation?
For example 3x8=24....well you can write that equation a multitude of ways to arrive at the product??(24). 2x12, 4x6, 1x24?? When you have a product that is constant, then obviously the other parts are the variables??
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Thats right, 24 would be the horsepower in that line of thinking and the other two numbers would be the rpm and Torque.
 
273 said:
Thats right, 24 would be the horsepower in that line of thinking and the other two numbers would be the rpm and Torque.
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TORQUE IS NOT WORK!

Torque is a FORCE applied at a perpendicular distance from a fulcrum.

Work is the force applied to an object in the same direction of movement.

You seem to be confusing these two concepts.


RPM is not a measure of work. It is the speed of the engine. RPM has no units for force, therefore cannot do work.


We keep trying to explain this to you, and you keep missing the whole concept. :banghead:


Like I've stated before, get a physics book and look up the definitions of work, torque, and power. Maybe your definitions are different from what they are defined as in physics. Or take a physics class....

I have posted information for you and supplied links to where I got the information. You have not read this or have closed your mind thinking that you already know the answer. I have explained it to you, I can't understand it for you... :rambo:

Or do a google search and look it up for yourself until you finally understand. :violent1:
 
This is some pretty funny stuff...

273...:sad11:
 
You Have to look at Units to make any sense of this. The Units of Work are Foot Pounds. Horse Power units are Foot Pounds Divided by Time, or seconds. Torque units are Foot Pounds. Horse power can be calculated from a timed event, 1/4 mile. Since we have weight of the car, The length of the track, 1320 feet, and how many seconds it took to get there. Torque starts at the engine crankshaft and is multiplied by the Transmission, then multiplied by the differential, and then divided by the effective OD of the tire. The efficiency of applying Work or Torque, since they have the same units, is why a 273 in an early Barracuda can beat a 440 in a Dart. All things are Never equal, including traction, friction, aerodynamics, efficiencies, weight transfer, torque curves, or the quickness or ability to keep within the power band. Everything in between keeps it interesting.
 
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