K-frame alignment?

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Uncle Bob

Uncle Bob

Shiny paint causes stress.
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For some reason I convinced myself to drop the k-frame out of my car to paint the engine bay and install another engine.

I have been told that the k-frame should be self aligning because of the shouldered bolts. However I am finding out that is not entirely accurate.

The first time I bolted it in, the engine was cocked around to where the steering coupler was in the way. I figured that out and thought I had it fixed.

Then I tried to stab the torsion bars. One side popped right in, the other side stops about 1/2" short of home and I can hear it hitting something solid. Then I looked back while the bar was partially in both sockets, and noticed this.

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So it seems my k-frame is still in the wrong place. Yes the bolts are tight.

Does anyone have any tips on how to get the k-frame installed square to the body without more days of trial and error? I do not have a lift and have no way to measure things to the factory diagram. I have the car up on some tall 6 ton stands and a cherry picker to lift/lower the engine and all, so there is no accuracy involved here.

I really believed that it would bolt up in the right place first time, thanks to the bolts/shoulders. Ha ha yeah sure it will. I'm really tired of putting things together just to take them apart, but part of that is my own damn fault (h/t Jimmy Buffett)

Thanks for any help!
 
4spdragtop said:
Man I feel for ya, I followed along on your tti header ordeal and following here.
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They were Doug's headers but yeah, that was just the start of this mess.

It's odd that nobody else seems to have had this problem, which led me to think it would just be an unbolt/rebolt operation. Nope.

I learned many lessons in this ordeal, the most important being to not take the k-frame out. :BangHead:

Also, no it wasn't like that before I took it off. Yes it has the correct bolts and the frame nut isn't damaged. The car isn't bent, has apparently never been wrecked, at least not hard enough to bend the frame. Before I took the k-frame out, the torsion bars slid in and out like you would expect. Now they don't.

Eventually today I'll go take everything loose again (finally learned to not tighten things up) and try to get it to move to where the torsion bars slide in and out, AND the header doesn't start interfering again. Advice before that on something I need to do with it that I haven't done so far would be helpful.
 
There used to be a tight, close tolerance hole and a tight tolerance slot so the K frame would self align. If some one opened up that tight hole, all bets are off. At this point, leave the 4 bolts loose, get your suspension lined up, and tighten the K frame bolts. I'm afraid that is the best you can hope for now.
 
66fs said:
There used to be a tight, close tolerance hole and a tight tolerance slot so the K frame would self align. If some one opened up that tight hole, all bets are off. At this point, leave the 4 bolts loose, get your suspension lined up, and tighten the K frame bolts. I'm afraid that is the best you can hope for now.
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I didn't notice anything that looked changed around the recessed bolt holes, if that's what you mean.

I've got the column installed and don't plan to take that apart before moving things, and maybe if I just loosen everything up and work it until the the torsion bars go in and out then leave them in to kind of hold it in place, and don't forget to make sure the steering and all else still clears before tightening any bolts.

FWIW, I'm mostly posting this to put it on the record that k-frames aren't automatic every time, and I think the right stand to build up from would have made a world of difference so be aware if you try to cheap out like I did.

I also got ahead of myself several times and had to back track - you have been warned :)
 
I think you have something bent, as in from an accident, or rust, etc. May be the K, may be the frame horns, etc. I see no way that even without the factory bolts, you could get a K that far off just from slopping it back and forth in the mounting holes.
 
I know it seems impossible that it would make that much difference. Me too.

I just stuck a jack under it, loosened up one bolt at a time and took photos of the alignment of the holes. It's hard to tell though because of the parallax effect and I am trying to hold the camera level and centered under the hole.

I did notice there's a piece of masking tape in there that I had put on the frame to help me align things.

1717346886722.png

It looks to me by the outline of the washer that it doesn't seem like it's doing the job it was meant to do.

FWIW the bolts are swedged, as they should be

1717347031423.png
 
If it was ME, what I would do is loosen the K frame bolts and try to get the torsion bars in and "everything else" in the right place, then cinch down the K frsme bolts. Might not be the "correct" way, but that's what I'd try.
 
RustyRatRod said:
If it was ME, what I would do is loosen the K frame bolts and try to get the torsion bars in and "everything else" in the right place, then cinch down the K frsme bolts. Might not be the "correct" way, but that's what I'd try.
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Yeah that's about what I'm about to do. Tough being alone with all the up and down involved. I can see me tightening one bolt, checking both TBs, tightening the next bolt, repeat.

I should have done that first thing. Four points have to be right before torquing the k-frame, the TBs, the transmission x-member, and the steering column. I will know the next time, as unlikely as that is.

FWIW, I had the torsion bars out of this car before I took the k-frame out, and they slipped in and out with no problems. So it used to be straight and this is all a problem of my own making. Like I said I'll know the next time.
 
I’m with @67Dart273 on this, something has to be bent or out of whack. I’ve had the K out of several of my cars and have never had an issue with the K frame alignment. There’s obviously some tolerance there, but the tolerance on the suspension points of these cars is like a 1/4” so that much can be compensated for within the factory suspension adjustments.

Maybe the torsion bars lined up before, but maybe the K being in place was what was resisting the chassis being distorted. Once the K was removed the chassis distorted and now the K won’t pull it back into alignment despite being reinstalled. Or maybe the K is damaged and the chassis was holding it up until it was removed. Either way, it seems to me something is bent or broken. Have you checked the LCA pivot tubes? If the tube is broken free inside the K then the LCA might not be in the same place as before.

I’ve seen the Doug’s header thread, and having them installed on my Duster as well I don’t see how the chassis and K of your car is within spec. I’m not saying all headers are perfect, they aren’t and there are definitely some lemons out there. But adding the header fit, steering fit and torsion bar fit together it seems to me that the chassis is the culprit.
 
72bluNblu said:
I’m with @67Dart273 on this, something has to be bent or out of whack. I’ve had the K out of several of my cars and have never had an issue with the K frame alignment. There’s obviously some tolerance there, but the tolerance on the suspension points of these cars is like a 1/4” so that much can be compensated for within the factory suspension adjustments.

Maybe the torsion bars lined up before, but maybe the K being in place was what was resisting the chassis being distorted. Once the K was removed the chassis distorted and now the K won’t pull it back into alignment despite being reinstalled. Or maybe the K is damaged and the chassis was holding it up until it was removed. Either way, it seems to me something is bent or broken. Have you checked the LCA pivot tubes? If the tube is broken free inside the K then the LCA might not be in the same place as before.

I’ve seen the Doug’s header thread, and having them installed on my Duster as well I don’t see how the chassis and K of your car is within spec. I’m not saying all headers are perfect, they aren’t and there are definitely some lemons out there. But adding the header fit, steering fit and torsion bar fit together it seems to me that the chassis is the culprit.
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I don't know what the deal is. It had a 400 on elephant ears to begin with so before this, the K-frame didn't have to locate the motor and transmission, only the steering column and the torsion bars. I had the torsion bars out when it had the 400 in it (before I took the k-frame out) and they slid in and out like I expected. There are no wrinkles or signs of a crash that I have noticed.

After hours out there today trying this and that I'm getting convinced it's related to the LCA somehow. Whatever it is it's off enough that the bar kind of "thuds" when it stops going in. I had some success at one point, then I lost it and in the end that bar is really no different than it was when I started. It's not going to take long before I make sure everything is loose and go ahead and drive it in and call it good enough.
 
Uncle Bob said:
I don't know what the deal is. It had a 400 on elephant ears to begin with so before this, the K-frame didn't have to locate the motor and transmission, only the steering column and the torsion bars. I had the torsion bars out when it had the 400 in it (before I took the k-frame out) and they slid in and out like I expected. There are no wrinkles or signs of a crash that I have noticed.

After hours out there today trying this and that I'm getting convinced it's related to the LCA somehow. Whatever it is it's off enough that the bar kind of "thuds" when it stops going in. I had some success at one point, then I lost it and in the end that bar is really no different than it was when I started. It's not going to take long before I make sure everything is loose and go ahead and drive it in and call it good enough.
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Has the car ever had the engine mounted on the K frame since you've had it?
 
i'll echo what the others have hinted to upthread. something is bent or broken. if the frame seems good, my money is on the K being the culprit.

just out of curiosity, do you have sub frame connectors in the car? and where are the jacks stands situated at?
 
Uncle Bob said:
I don't know what the deal is. It had a 400 on elephant ears to begin with so before this, the K-frame didn't have to locate the motor and transmission, only the steering column and the torsion bars. I had the torsion bars out when it had the 400 in it (before I took the k-frame out) and they slid in and out like I expected. There are no wrinkles or signs of a crash that I have noticed.

After hours out there today trying this and that I'm getting convinced it's related to the LCA somehow. Whatever it is it's off enough that the bar kind of "thuds" when it stops going in. I had some success at one point, then I lost it and in the end that bar is really no different than it was when I started. It's not going to take long before I make sure everything is loose and go ahead and drive it in and call it good enough.
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Sounds to me like you need to make sure that the LCA pivot and bushing are in good condition. If the pivot tube has broken loose in the K then the LCA can move around, so the torsion bar would slide out but the force from installing the torsion bar could push the LCA out of alignment, causing binding. If nothing else you need to rule it out.

And like @RustyRatRod suggested, the elephant ears may have been there to solve a K frame/engine mount related issue. Could have been the cheapest fix for a larger problem.

You do what you like, but I wouldn’t be driving that car on public roads until I had an explanation and/or solution. The amount of issues you’ve had suggests something significant is wrong, and not the kind of thing you want to find going down the road at speed.
 
All I can say is that I have taken K Frames out and put them back in more times than I can remember, and I have never had a problem. I can't help but to think that there is something else going on.
 
72bluNblu said:
Sounds to me like you need to make sure that the LCA pivot and bushing are in good condition. If the pivot tube has broken loose in the K then the LCA can move around, so the torsion bar would slide out but the force from installing the torsion bar could push the LCA out of alignment, causing binding. If nothing else you need to rule it out.

And like @RustyRatRod suggested, the elephant ears may have been there to solve a K frame/engine mount related issue. Could have been the cheapest fix for a larger problem.

You do what you like, but I wouldn’t be driving that car on public roads until I had an explanation and/or solution. The amount of issues you’ve had suggests something significant is wrong, and not the kind of thing you want to find going down the road at speed.
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S'kinda what I was thAnkin. lol
 
junkyardhero said:
just out of curiosity, do you have sub frame connectors in the car? and where are the jacks stands situated at?
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No subframe connectors. The stands are on the frame rail in front of the torsion bar xmember. Probably doesn't matter but the rear axle is on stands too. I wonder if it would help to use a jack under the k-frame instead?

ETA: I ain't all that excited about being under the car without the stands holding it up. :thumbsup:
 
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72bluNblu said:
LCA pivot and bushing
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I replaced the bushing not long ago, mile-wise. I rebuilt the entire front suspension when the 400 was in it.

I probably should have welded up all the seams but other than that there is no obvious damage to the k-frame.

72bluNblu said:
You do what you like, but I wouldn’t be driving that car on public roads until I had an explanation and/or solution. The amount of issues you’ve had suggests something significant is wrong, and not the kind of thing you want to find going down the road at speed.
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It drove fine at speed with the 400. Many times. No weird tire wear, no pulling, no vibrations. Nothing.
 
Uncle Bob said:
No subframe connectors. The stands are on the frame rail in front of the torsion bar xmember. Probably doesn't matter but the rear axle is on stands too.
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it's possible that the frame has got enough flex in it that it's causing you issues.

also, motor plate makes me think it was making big dumb power so you might have a twist going on. the K was just holding it all steady and when you removed it all the magic got let out and ain't no way it's going back.

i used to run a 4dr dart with a 440 and no subframes and it pretzeled up the frame enough the the right rear door wouldn't open. and that was on standard soft mounts with and absolutely rock solid west coast car.

i'm not saying this is the problem, but it could be a contributing factor. my money is still on something K related or the arm is janky.
 
Cross check the K member location with a tape measure off matching holes in the rear sub frame to make sure the K member is installed square to the car.


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With no engine in the car, I would move those front jack stands to the trans crossmember sub frame. To help the front of the car droop down into alignment.

Those cars flex all over the place when jacking them up.

First clue right now with the way you have it, do the doors hang low when you try to close them? If so, moving the jack stands to the crossmember sub frame will help to pick up the rear doors so they close better > body in alignment.

Screenshot_20240603-080613_Gallery.jpg



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George Jets said:
Cross check the K member location with a tape measure off matching holes in the rear sub frame to make sure the K member is installed square to the car.
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Did that already, measured to the front of the frame rail/rad support. It's square, but it wouldn't hurt if I could figure out a way to measure it diagonally. The shape of things under there make that harder to do than it should be.

George Jets said:
With no engine in the car, I would move those front jack stands to the trans crossmember sub frame. To help the front of the car droop down into alignment.

Those cars flex all over the place when jacking them up.

First clue right now with the way you have it, do the doors hang low when you try to close them? If so, moving the jack stands to the crossmember sub frame will help to pick up the rear doors so they close better > body in alignment.

View attachment 1716257686


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It's got an engine in it now, that is an earlier photo. Once I get past this torsion bar issue I could be ready to start it up in about a week of evenings.

The door does seem to be sagging a little bit but it's not a lot.
 
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