K-frame alignment?

[George Jets]

Cut a used torsion bar in half. Stick it in the crossmember socket.

Now take a straight edge off the round lower edge of the 18" long test torsion bar, and shoot a line to the control arm pivot in the K-member.

The imaginary line from the crossmember Socket to the control arm socket (or K-member control arm hole) should easily line up center to center.

You can do this same test putting the 18" long test torsion bar into the mounted lower control arm torsion socket, and shoot a line with the straight edge to the center of the crossmember torsion socket.

These should easily line up on center. If they don't, something is seriously out of whack....

 

[Dartswinger70]

Its been a few years but isnt there alignment holes in the frame rail of the body and the K member? where possibly a drift pin type tool would go?

 

[Kendog 170]

I'm thinking out of the box here. Is it possible the car got tweaked, but the K frame was never out. Then taking out K frame relaxed the tweak causing misalignment?

I am now leaning toward this. Frame was tweaked, K frame held it in line but sprang when removed.
Even if you take a tape measure and catch a front frame hole and cross over to the k frame bolt both ways and see if they are the same. Then do the same but measure straight the rail up to each bolt and look for any differences.
Or, Put cardboard down on floor, use a plumb bob and mark all your measuring holes via Frame Diagram to the floor and then measure from the floor.

 

[junkyardhero]

i said it on page one, when you pulled the K you let all the magic out.

get out the "accurate" tape measure and let's see what's goat-ing on.

 

[junkyardhero]

Its been a few years but isnt there alignment holes in the frame rail of the body and the K member? where possibly a drift pin type tool would go?

no. the only holes in the K are for the attachment bolts themselves.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Pivot is not bent, no problem with the tube, all looks OK. Took the strut rod off so there's nothing holding the position of the LCA but the pivot and nut. Same result.

The first photo is dark but it shows how close it is.

 

[RustyRatRod]

no. the only holes in the K are for the attachment bolts themselves.

Negatory ghostrider. There are dedicated datum holes to measure and cross measure. See the diagram earlier in the thread.

 

[junkyardhero]

Negatory ghostrider. There are dedicated datum holes to measure and cross measure. See the diagram earlier in the thread.

i understand that there are specific datum holes used to measure, but in reading his quote:

Its been a few years but isnt there alignment holes in the frame rail of the body and the K member? where possibly a drift pin type tool would go?

i took this to mean: is there a hole in the K and frame that match each other and you could use a tool/pin for alignment in the assembly process. which there is not.

the datum pickups are the LCA pin holes and the front strut rod mount. besides the mount holes, there's only the sway bar holes and drain holes-- neither of which are remotely close to any measurement in the diagram in post #42 or in my 69 manual (23-148 fig. 3) [confirmed on a 67 K and a 73~76 K].

which, understandable. but those don't really help in putting it together in that you can only measure it once assembled.

 

[RustyRatRod]

i understand that there are specific datum holes used to measure, but in reading his quote:


i took this to mean: is there a hole in the K and frame that match each other and you could use a tool/pin for alignment in the assembly process. which there is not.

the datum pickups are the LCA pin holes and the front strut rod mount. besides the mount holes, there's only the sway bar holes and drain holes-- neither of which are remotely close to any measurement in the diagram in post #42 or in my 69 manual (23-148 fig. 3) [confirmed on a 67 K and a 73~76 K].

which, understandable. but those don't really help in putting it together in that you can only measure it once assembled.

Gotchya, Buckwheat. Yeah, as far as I know the datum plane holes are for the body and frame only.

 

[junkyardhero]

Gotchya, Buckwheat. Yeah, as far as I know the datum plane holes are for the body and frame only.

makin' me go roll around under my car to confirm *grumbles*

all kidding aside, what's interesting is there isn't a long cross measure to a fixed point on the forward frame (ie up near the rad cradle). that's well above my pay grade, but i'm sure there's reasons.

 

[DC 340]

I've moved things enough to where the bar leaves the middle of the socket on the L-R axis but it still seems like it's still coming out too high so that seems to me like the k-frame/LCA needs to move downward. I've got some 16ga steel so I could cut out some shims easily enough to see if that helps I guess. Probably can't shim it much if at all because of the shoulder/socket interface on the bolts/frame. But it might be a worthwhile experiment. First I'm going to remove the LCA and see if there's anything up with that.

In the interest of getting that bar back in, you could make some shim(s) to move that K down, hopefully seat the bar home, remove the shim(s) afterwards, and tighten back as it should be. At least you could then get it off jack stands and see what you've got.

 

[Uncle Bob]

In the interest of getting that bar back in, you could make some shim(s) to move that K down, hopefully seat the bar home, remove the shim(s) afterwards, and tighten back as it should be. At least you could then get it off jack stands and see what you've got.

If it comes to that I think I could just give it a few whacks with a hammer and drift to get it in. I haven't done that mostly because I don't want to have to disassemble the suspension to R&R the torsion bars if I ever have the need. It would be bad too if that caused it to break under load, but I don't think it would be any different than putting it in with the k-frame shimmed and then un-shimming it.

I took the day off from the car, but likely tomorrow I am going to release *everything* connecting the k-frame/motor/transmission to the body, hang the motor from the cherry picker, and unbolt the k-frame to see if I can get anywhere like that. (Right now only the column and z-bar with the outer pivot unbolted are still in place)

If that doesn't help, I'm going to pull the transmission from under the car and lift the engine/bellhousing off the k-frame and try again. It will be easier to move without all that weight on it but I hope it doesn't come to that. One of the reasons I pulled the k-frame to begin with was to avoid trying to fit the engine/trans in bolted together without any help, or fighting the 4-speed in while laying on my back. It would be easier if I could just pick the engine weight up off the k-frame with the cherry picker *and* unbolt the k-frame to move it around but the only idea I've got is to use floor jack under it. That won't work because I'd never get the jack placed where the k-frame is balanced to sit on it.

That's my plan. I don't promise I will stick to it.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I measured through the rear socket into the front socket and it is exactly the same distance left and right, making it seem like the k-frame is square to the car. I disco'ed everything connecting it to the body and loosened the kframe bolts but it doesn't want move much, and none of the movement helps.

I am looking at my hammer and drift now instead of taking everything apart.

Is there any experience R&R-ing the strut rod with the LCA in place, or does the LCA have to be removed? I checked the FSM, it has the strut and LCA R&R-ed as one piece. I couldn't figure out any way to get the strut in/out with the LCA in place, but I didn't try very hard either.

 

[junkyardhero]

the LCA has to come out (or at least far enough back) to yank the strut rod.

remember to undo the front nut first before the nut at the LCA or it's likely the strut rods just spins in the socket.

 

[DC 340]

If it comes to that I think I could just give it a few whacks with a hammer and drift to get it in. I haven't done that mostly because I don't want to have to disassemble the suspension to R&R the torsion bars if I ever have the need. It would be bad too if that caused it to break under load, but I don't think it would be any different than putting it in with the k-frame shimmed and then un-shimming it.

If you are gonna move metal in the hexes with the hammer and drift then I think there is a difference. I always think of "do no harm".

I hope you get this figured out. Seems to me your subframe or trans crossmember has moved for whatever reason.

 

[Uncle Bob]

gonna move metal in the hexes with the hammer and drift

I'm not going to wail on it that hard

I loosened the k-frame and tried tilting it from side to side and front to back. It didn't seem to help.

 

[DC 340]

Bob, are you sure that k frame is correct for the car? I don't know the history or even know what kind of car you have other than Mopar I assume, maybe others do but I don't.

 

[Jim Lusk]

If you're going to pull the K-member back out make sure it is square (same distance on the diagonals) and put the LCAs in and run a straightedge to make sure the sockets are parallel. I've pulled a lot of k-members from one car to put in another and NEVER had this problem. Also, with the K out make sure your mounting holes are square.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Bob, are you sure that k frame is correct for the car? I don't know the history or even know what kind of car you have other than Mopar I assume, maybe others do but I don't.

Yes, it was installed in the car to start with and the bars slid in and out like a normal set would. Problem started after I unbolted and removed it.

 

[Uncle Bob]

If you're going to pull the K-member back out make sure it is square (same distance on the diagonals) and put the LCAs in and run a straightedge to make sure the sockets are parallel. I've pulled a lot of k-members from one car to put in another and NEVER had this problem. Also, with the K out make sure your mounting holes are square.

I've decide that I'm not taking it back out and wasting another week fooling around with it and gaining nothing. I've got an old beat up extension and a dead blow hammer to use later today. I've thumped it in before but like to never got it back out and ended up making a homebrew remover tool. It came out that way and there is no obvious damage from pounding it in. Everything will be loose so it can move around where it needs to as much as it can.

If I ever get it back out of the garage again I'll drive it alone a few times so if that torsion bar would snap there's no worry about it possibly harming anyone sitting in the passenger seat.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Tapping it in was a NBD kind of thing. Should've done it on the first day.

I loosened the k-frame and left it hanging on the hook when I did it, then I tightened that up and checked everything before torquing. The bar is in, the LCA is snug, the bar doesn't touch the header on either side, and the steering wheel will spin. Yeah I put the clips in it. Now to get busy and quit worrying so much.

If this comes up again where the t-bars won't go in the socket, ask if they've tried to just tap (not bang) it in. A 1/2" extension makes a great drift.

 

[Swinger 340]

This shows where the stand is

View attachment 1716257685

May not be what you want to hear, but I would remove the motor and transmission and install the "K" member first. It would be easier to adjust for placement. I have installed several "K" members that way, without issues. Note: Be sure the ends are cleaned out and with fresh grease added. Remember, there is a left and right bar and make sure they are not bent or nicked. Adjusting bolts are down or relaxed, then adjust for height after power train installed.

 

[Uncle Bob]

install the "K" member first

I think that was where I went wrong, the engine wasn't bolted to the k-frame straight and it all went downhill from there. If I would've installed the k-frame and engine separately, that would've been more obvious.

Just like this TB thing - I started chasing an out of line k-frame when all I really needed to do was make sure all the bolts were loose and just tap it in.

I have the suspension, steering column, clutch linkage, all installed now and everything lined up fine.

 

[cawest]

Wow! This is good info for what I'm doing right now! I have a 71 Demon that had no engine or trans in it when I bought it! Got an engine and trans to go in it but was doing the same thing! I dropped the k member to blast and paint both it and the engine compartment and and inner fenders. So I had fun getting bushings in and out of the upper and lower control arms. When I went to press the bushing in the lower I guess I didn't have it lined up straight or something! I got it better than 3/4 the way in and it split! I also noticed that the pivot arm was tweaked and moving harder, maybe I bent it? I like to tell myself that it was like that so I feel better! So after destroying the upper as well I decided to buy a set of uppers and lowers from QA1! They are nice and bolt right up to the K with ease. But took a bite out of my budget! I have noticed that after removing the k, the right frame lifted off the jack stand slightly! So may have a twist in the frame! Going to install the k and suspension as soon as I get strut bar bushings! Now you got me worried that I may run into the same issue! Hopefully not! I wish you good luck and am anxious to see how it goes! Following your saga and will let you know how mine goes!

 

[Uncle Bob]

When I went to press the bushing in the lower I guess I didn't have it lined up straight or something!

Be careful with a press. It can also shoot things out when they're not aligned right. 20 tons pressing down can wreak havoc if something slips.

I have noticed that after removing the k, the right frame lifted off the jack stand slightly!

Did you have four stands under the front and rear frames? If so, there will always be one that floats. You have to put one end or the other under something sprung like the rear axle housing. I still remember the first time I was under a car, bumped against a jackstand, and it moved.

Good luck. Don't waste a lot of time worrying over it like I did, go ahead and try tapping the bar in if it's stubborn (don't beat on it like a maniac) (unless you're losing your mind and can't help it) (if so consider it therapy)