lifter galley crossover tube

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douglas340

douglas340

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Hi all,
Just a quick question about oiling mods on my 340. Will this lifter galley crossover tube be okay in this position?(first pic)
Or does it need to go in the second pic?

IMAG0302.jpg


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I personally stopped doing that a long time ago.

That said, Mike at B3 racing engines says he has a way that works. If you are set on doing it, I'd call him and talk to him. He couldn't tell a lie with a gun to his head. He will give you the straight poop.
 
I've never done it and never had a problem even at 7600 RPM
 
I've done a few, does it help anything????
haven't had any failures > full time oiling.
tapped into the oil sending unit gallery

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Yeah, back when I was racin, I never did one. Saw it done a LOT. Never had a problem. Spun on a regular basis to 7800. A few times to past 8800. By accident. Still no issues.
 
That mod dates back to the trans am efforts and is for the #4 main, to slow the speed of oil down the pass side oil galley, to help starvation at very high rpm. It has to be done as in the 2nd pic (OP's) so the oil from the drivers valley is utilized for it and the fitting going into the pass side is critical. If you can't do it right, don't bother. The effectiveness of it is always in question. I've never bothered with it myself.

Edit, after blowing the picture up that one is done wrong. A 90* fitting there will negate any positive effect. The mod is for #4 main bearing oil feed and rods 5 & 6 that it feeds iirc.
Nothing more.
 
yellow rose said:
Never seen that before.
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Me neither but I like it. short/concise/easy. & what Moper said, Like I saw in the pics when Larry Atherton Of the old now defunct A&W performance did it way back (he may have originated it, his story sounds convincing!) use 45 deg high flow fittings such as the blue alum npt/an ones in the speedway mtrs catalogue (if pics needed) but would be available from many sources. EDIT His take is to reduce the speed past the #4 main (by bleeding some of it right before that turn over to the dr side) so enough flow can still make the right turn down to that problematic #4 main. Opening the 4 main feeds to 9/32" is suggested. #5 already has plenty.
 
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I don't mean to hijack the thread, but what is the advantage of doing this crossover? Is one galley higher pressure than the other?
 
The trick with Mopars is the oiling for the main bearings, and ultimately the rods they feed. That's because the pass side lifter galley gets pressurized oil first. Then it's redirected down to the main bearings but it has to make a sharp turn for each main feed. A separate passage runs oil to the drivers side galley at the #1 cam bearing where all it feeds is the lifters on that side. When you factor in the oil pressure bleed off from the 8 drivers lifters, and the 6 pass side lifters forward of the #4 intersection, plus the amount of oil leakage that larger race clearances in the lower end provide, the velocity of the oil within that pass side, and especially at the #4 main junction, is very high. The faster the velocity, the less willing and able the oil is to slow and make that turn. So the theory goes that by tapping the oil from the #4 area, the localized speed at that turn is lowered. A convenient place to dump velocity is the drivers side galley because there's a lot less flow there already. It's not directing slow oil "to" the #4 turn, it's adding volume thereby slowing velocity "from" the #4 turn, and dumping the oil into the drivers side. That's why the angle of the holes you drill, and the shape of the fittings is so critical. If it's not just right, there's little effectiveness to it.
It's on the Guitar Jones list of mods to do but I posted on that thread saying it was a waste in all but the highest revving road race type builds. Modern oil control theory, better bearing choices, and tighter machining tolerances go a very long way to fixing the starvation issue unless you're spinning 7K+ for extended periods of time.
 
I really don't get the logic of the oil moving so fast that it can't make the turn to the mains. If the oil was moving that fast, there would be no oil pressure. Pressure is a resistance to directional flow or movement. So, in a pressure differential, pressure will always move from high areas to low areas. If the mains are the low area, that's where the oil is going, regardless of the turn into the passage.
 
I have tried to imagine this too; I can't say one way or the other in this case, though I HAVE found some very unexpected results in airflow testing when engineering some cooling setups for electrical cabinets. The air did indeed pick up some high velocity and would turn in unexpected directions as a result when spacing to other objects changed. So IMHO it is at least plausible.
 
nm9stheham said:
I have tried to imagine this too; I can't say one way or the other in this case, though I HAVE found some very unexpected results in airflow testing when engineering some cooling setups for electrical cabinets. The air did indeed pick up some high velocity and would turn in unexpected directions as a result when spacing to other objects changed. So IMHO it is at least plausible.
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Only if it has high velocity, which it cant, and have pressure (resistance to flow) at the same time. The flow would have to be unimpeded for that to happen, like an open ended sewer pipe.
 
I need to clarify. In a closed system, there will be less velocity with resistance to flow. The flow will be reduced to the rate of bleed off in the system. An open system will increase velocity with an increase in volume, or a decrease in area, ie an intake port at high rpm. The oiling system will only flow as much as the bleed off will allow. If that bleed off is so high that velocity is also high, then pressure will drop, unless there is an increase in volume.
 
If you understand hydraulic systems and how they work you will know that oil moving so fast that it can't turn at #4 but can at #3 is someones that does not understand what he's talking about. If a system has 100psi and
you start adding leaks IE rods, mains, cam, lifters the pressure will drop, but the pressure will be the same on the left as on the right at all times because it's a hydraulic system.
 
All I know is all the oval track mopar 360s I have built have never had a oiling problem, and I have never put a crossover in the galley. If I can turn 7200 rpm for 3 or 4 seasons with a cast crank 360, it proves that modification is a waste of time
 
replicaracer43 said:
All I know is all the oval track mopar 360s I have built have never had a oiling problem, and I have never put a crossover in the galley. If I can turn 7200 rpm for 3 or 4 seasons with a cast crank 360, it proves that modification is a waste of time
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Actually, all it proves, is that you didn't have an oiling problem. It depends how the modification is done. If done per the performance manuals, yeah, it ain't doing much, IMO.
 
It's a very simple explanation as to why Chrysler's don't oil the rods. There are only a couple of ways I know of to correct it.

Oiling isn't really an issue up to ~7800 if everything is correct. After that, it goes wrong in a hurry. I know there are people claiming they turned 8500 forever. I think they lie. To make power at 8500 even on 340 inches requires much more induction than I see people using.

So...the real issue isn't flow, pressure, volume, turns or anything else. It's the fact that engineers KNEW decades ago that the rods need maximum oil flow at about 70~ ATDC. It moves a bit due to rod ratio but that's pretty much the standard. Every Chevy ever made has the oil timing at 70 degrees after TDC. They will oil well past useable RPM with less pressure and volume than a Chrysler. Or a ford.

So, the issue is where are the oil feed holes in the block relative to the oil hole in the crank? If you look at the GM stuff, when the crank is 70* past TDC the oil hole in the block is lined up directly with the oil feed hole in the crank. The oil feed hole in the block is at 12:00. Full volume and pressure is delivered to the rod bearings at max load, just as it should be.

Now look at your Chrysler. The oil feed hole in the block is closer to 10:00. Yet the hole in the crank is in the exact same position as the GM crank. What it all means is the oil gets to the rods way early.
Also consider as RPM goes up, the TIME the oil feed holes are lined up is LESS so it amplifies the issue. Full groove bearings help and I always use them but it won't fix the timing issue.

I've never asked, but it's may be possible to have the crank drilled with the oil hole rotated back so it is not past the feed hole at 70* ATDC but it is possible that you can't move the hole that far.
If the feed hole in the block is moved, that would fix it, but that is impossible unless the engineers fix that.

The fix I used was to block off all oil from the factory feeds. Cross drill the crank and and drill and tap the main caps and feed oil in from the bottom. This is a PITA but it works.

That's the only fix for rod oiling that works. Crossovers, lifter bushings and all the other stuff published and done for decades will not fix a high RPM oiling issue.

If you have issues with oiling at lower RPM, some thing else is wrong.
 
I believe this ultimately depends on what type of cam you're using. If you're using a cam that has fully grooved bearing races, then I believe the mod would help. #4 main also feeds the cam, then the rocker shafts. If it's oiling the rockers full time because of the cam, then the pressure drop is going to be higher at #4 because it has a bigger bleed vs #3. #2 is the same way, but apparently doesn't have issues because the rate of flow at the oil galley is significantly less. Remember, "An object in motion tends to stay in motion."

This may explain why some have issues and others don't. They may have different cams, or restrictors going to the heads. IMO, just drill the oil galley to the mains to 5/16"

brian6pac said:
If you understand hydraulic systems and how they work you will know that oil moving so fast that it can't turn at #4 but can at #3 is someones that does not understand what he's talking about. If a system has 100psi and
you start adding leaks IE rods, mains, cam, lifters the pressure will drop, but the pressure will be the same on the left as on the right at all times because it's a hydraulic system.
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The pressure of a fluid in a system will always drop at different areas in the system. The oil filter sees higher pressure than the drivers rocker shaft. Same goes for the right/left oil galleys and the rocker shafts. Might not be a lot of pressure drop, but it's there.
 
T56MaxTorq said:
I believe this ultimately depends on what type of cam you're using. If you're using a cam that has fully grooved bearing races, then I believe the mod would help. #4 main also feeds the cam, then the rocker shafts. If it's oiling the rockers full time because of the cam, then the pressure drop is going to be higher at #4 because it has a bigger bleed vs #3. #2 is the same way, but apparently doesn't have issues because the rate of flow at the oil galley is significantly less. Remember, "An object in motion tends to stay in motion."

This may explain why some have issues and others don't. They may have different cams, or restrictors going to the heads. IMO, just drill the oil galley to the mains to 5/16"



The pressure of a fluid in a system will always drop at different areas in the system. The oil filter sees higher pressure than the drivers rocker shaft. Same goes for the right/left oil galleys and the rocker shafts. Might not be a lot of pressure drop, but it's there.
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You can have ditch cut in the cam journal. It affects Rod bearing oiling zero. Has zero affect. Besides, no matter how you do it, the oil going to the rockers is self limiting, even with a grooved journal. As RPM goes up, the time for oil flow goes down. It also limits because oil flow is controlled by the leakage at the rocker and oil feed to the cup and adjuster.

It's all about oil timing at the crank. Nothing else.
 
yellow rose said:
You can have ditch cut in the cam journal. It affects Rod bearing oiling zero. Has zero affect. Besides, no matter how you do it, the oil going to the rockers is self limiting, even with a grooved journal. As RPM goes up, the time for oil flow goes down. It also limits because oil flow is controlled by the leakage at the rocker and oil feed to the cup and adjuster.

It's all about oil timing at the crank. Nothing else.
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You're saying that if you have an open oil bleed (the cam plus full time oil to the head) at a junction where oil is also going to the crank, that the open bleed has ZERO affect on the crank oiling?? More oil is being diverted away from #4 bearing. Is it enough pressure drop to matter? I don't know, I have a magnum lol.
 
T56MaxTorq said:
You're saying that if you have an open oil bleed (the cam plus full time oil to the head) at a junction where oil is also going to the crank, that the open bleed has ZERO affect on the crank oiling?? More oil is being diverted away from #4 bearing. Is it enough pressure drop to matter? I don't know, I have a magnum lol.
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I'm saying the rocker feed is self limiting. You are saying it's an open hole, I'm saying it isn't. The flow is controlled by the leakage at the rocker, and oil to the adjuster. You can feed it with a 1 inch hole and flow and pressure will be the same.

Guys are blaming one thing when the issue is the other.
 
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