New voltage limiter questions - 67 Dart 270

[Hilderbrand1983]

My fuel and temperature gauges are non-operational. After cruising this forum for a while, I determined that the best course of action would be to replace my instrument cluster voltage regulator (or "voltage limiter" for some). In the pictures, the new limiter is the one on the left, and the old one is on the right.

The old one seems to be original, so its age is a good reason for replacement (if nothing else). As an aside, the PCB hadn't been disconnected before, so all those pins were stiff and super-tight. Needless to say, seven of the ten pins broke off in the process and a new PCB is on the way (from PremiumDashDecals).

QUESTIONS:

1. The new limiter has an extra prong on it that the old one doesn't have. Does this mean I need to run a new ground wire? If so, does anyone have any advice (a) about where I can attach this ground wire to the chassis and (b) the gauge of the new ground wire?

2. The old limiter had some sort of small wire glued to it, and the adhesive broke as soon as I touched it. I think I know which way that wire is supposed to be affixed to the new limiter, but I have no clue what kind of adhesive is appropriate for this job. Any ideas?

I'm learning as I go with this Dart. Before I started, I knew how to change the oil and spark plugs in a car. I'm indebted to many of you for your help, though you may be unaware. If I've failed to explain anything adequately, please let me know and I'll try to get more pictures or more accurate descriptions of the issue.

Thanks!

 

[67Dart273]

I can't imagine what this "small glued wire" is. The one you bought appears to be an original type replacement, meaning, it's electro--mechanical. If it works, "fine." Many of us bought solid state replacements. I got mine from RTE engineering. Don't worry about the extra prong. I believe it's for connecting a radio noise suppression cap on some models.

There are several things you need to be aware of and check and do if need be

This is a good thread:

Printed circuit pins repair

1....All of these cars ground the cluster "by accident" through the mounting screws. Good idea to attach a ground pigtail to the pc board mounting screws and run over and bolt to the column support or dash frame

2....Check the harness connector pins carefully for looseness, and clean and solder them

3....Check the resistance between the springy fingers which form the connector for the IVR. On my car, and in the thread above, you have to solder jumpers across to the PC board, as they lose contact

4....Loosen/ tighten the gauge stud nuts several times to 'scrub' them. Consider replacing the nuts

You can check gauges for accuracy by getting resistors, or a variable resistor, and setting to the check points re: the factory gauge check tool. There's several old threads on here about that:

Hey Del, Look what I found!!! An original Miller Gauge tester!!!

Below is a photo of one of the Mopar testers. The figures in yellow were added by someone, these are the check points for the tester, which you substitute for the gauge senders

 

[Hilderbrand1983]

I can't imagine what this "small glued wire" is. The one you bought appears to be an original type replacement, meaning, it's electro--mechanical. If it works, "fine." Many of us bought solid state replacements. I got mine from RTE engineering. Don't worry about the extra prong. I believe it's for connecting a radio noise suppression cap on some models.

There are several things you need to be aware of and check and do if need be

This is a good thread:

Printed circuit pins repair

1....All of these cars ground the cluster "by accident" through the mounting screws. Good idea to attach a ground pigtail to the pc board mounting screws and run over and bolt to the column support or dash frame

2....Check the harness connector pins carefully for looseness, and clean and solder them

3....Check the resistance between the springy fingers which form the connector for the IVR. On my car, and in the thread above, you have to solder jumpers across to the PC board, as they lose contact

4....Loosen/ tighten the gauge stud nuts several times to 'scrub' them. Consider replacing the nuts

You can check gauges for accuracy by getting resistors, or a variable resistor, and setting to the check points re: the factory gauge check tool. There's several old threads on here about that:

Hey Del, Look what I found!!! An original Miller Gauge tester!!!

Below is a photo of one of the Mopar testers. The figures in yellow were added by someone, these are the check points for the tester, which you substitute for the gauge senders

You. Are. AWESOME! Thanks so much for all this! I'll get a picture of the wire when I head home for lunch in a few minutes.

 

[autopar3000]

Hey there,
Welcome to the forum. I have a bit of experience in this realm as I myself am in the middle of making some upgrades to my instrument cluster.

I don't think adding a ground to the extra prong. It might be a good idea, but probably not critical.

I'm not sure about the wire that glued wired might be for, but that's probably something you would want to put a connector on and affix properly. Because whatever adhesive you choose will probably wear out over time.

Regarding the limiter itself, I recommend that you test it before putting everything back together. I just bought one (Airtex brand) and it didn't work properly. When it was hood ked up the gauge was bouncing all over the place. Put the voltmeter on it and it wouldn't really register. It would bounce around so much that nothi nothi registered. But I know some power is going through the limiter because the gauge would move. Apparently those new solid state limiters are supposed to bounce the voltage around to mimic the action of the old mechanical limiters, but mine
was doing it all wrong. So I bought a new one from a supplier up here in Canada (National Moparts) and the new one works perfectly.

 

[nm9stheham]

You could attach a new ground wire, but I can't see it begin required at all; the limiter grounds through the circuit board. It would not be a bad idea to get one attached to the meal dash shell. Just make sure the other dash grounds are good too.

Adhesive attaching a wire? This is not making any sense. Was it attached to one of the connection tabs?

 

[Hilderbrand1983]

In the circle, at the end of the arrow, is the wire that was connected to the old limiter with some sort of adhesive. You can see the adhesive, all crusty and such, on the old limiter in the second picture, above. Look on the metal plug farthest to the right for a discolored, amber-ish streak. That's what I'm talking about.

So that I don't sound like such a newbie in the future, what is the circled part on the instrument cluster called (that is, the thing to which the arrow is pointing)?

 

[Darthomas]

A capacitor. It helps keep the ticking interference created by the contacts out of the radio. Same way a capacitor is mounted at the ignition coil.

 

[Hilderbrand1983]

A capacitor. It helps keep the ticking interference created by the contacts out of the radio. Same way a capacitor is mounted at the ignition coil.

Thanks! Another stupid question -- is it worth replacing, since I already have it out of the vehicle, or should I not worry about it?

 

[Darthomas]

measure to see if it's not shorted..
extremely unlikely
then the tab goes into sideways slot along with the center tab on the regulator when it gets installed.

 

[RedFish]

That dab of glue would be a smart move when trying to replace the limiter while laying in the floor. 2 male blades go into the female slot together at the same time. Why not glue them together.
If you delete the noise capasitior ( second male spade ) the one male at middle of limiter may not make a good connection in that female. Result; instruments work intermittently.

 

[Hilderbrand1983]

That dab of glue would be a smart move when trying to replace the limiter while laying in the floor. 2 male blades go into the female slot together at the same time. Why not glue them together.
If you delete the noise capasitior ( second male spade ) the one male at middle of limiter may not make a good connection in that female. Result; instruments work intermittently.

What kind of glue would you recommend? Some sort of silicone-based adhesive?

 

[RedFish]

I would scuff the mating surfaces for clean and bond then apply a drop of gel type super/stooped glue. Metal to metal contact both outer sides is all you need.

 

[RedFish]

most of these plug in limiter applications had a paper like insulator between the circuit board and the limiter. Same 3 slots cut in a thin piece of some material ( razor thin phenolic I suppose ). Those would crack and fall away.
I don't know that you still need it. No other purpose than prevent short circuits where OEM limiter housing or that L shaped spade terminal from the noise cap' might contact the circuit board.
One of the very early Dart panels had a board mounting screw beneath the limiter ( how ignorant was that ? ). The insulator is absolutely req'd there.
A lot of members here will suggest that since a modern solid state regulator doesn't make noise, the noise suppression capasitor is no longer req'd. While that may be true under the electrical hat, it aint true under the mechanical hat. When you delete that second male spade you degrade the mechanical connection of the electrical. Because.... That girl has already been stretched to 2 boys. ( Here is another place for RTE to suggest, "bend the little thingy" ).
and btw as you dig the broken board pins from the harness connectors you'll notice those females aren't exactly round. Always have been slightly oval. A little bit of di-electric grease here will make them easier to remove next time ( we hope )

 

[adriver]

Apologies in advance for the thread resurrection. But I do use "search" before posting questions.
I just put an IVR4 in a 73 cluster. Didn't need the capacitor? Took it out.
Well, now my AM doesn't have a "click", it's got constant static.
Can't hear a thing but static on AM.
FM is fine.
I guess I will have to pull the cluster back out and put the capacitor in.
I don't know what else it could be since nothing changed but that.
The tighten up is a good idea too.
And funny.

most of these plug in limiter applications had a paper like insulator between the circuit board and the limiter. Same 3 slots cut in a thin piece of some material ( razor thin phenolic I suppose ). Those would crack and fall away.
I don't know that you still need it. No other purpose than prevent short circuits where OEM limiter housing or that L shaped spade terminal from the noise cap' might contact the circuit board.
One of the very early Dart panels had a board mounting screw beneath the limiter ( how ignorant was that ? ). The insulator is absolutely req'd there.
A lot of members here will suggest that since a modern solid state regulator doesn't make noise, the noise suppression capasitor is no longer req'd. While that may be true under the electrical hat, it aint true under the mechanical hat. When you delete that second male spade you degrade the mechanical connection of the electrical. Because.... That girl has already been stretched to 2 boys. ( Here is another place for RTE to suggest, "bend the little thingy" ).
and btw as you dig the broken board pins from the harness connectors you'll notice those females aren't exactly round. Always have been slightly oval. A little bit of di-electric grease here will make them easier to remove next time ( we hope )

 

[RedFish]

IVR4 is what ? I'll guess aftermarket solid state electronic regulator. You're guessing that could produce static because mechanical points produce a "pop" noise. The same capasitor employed to reduce/remove your static would be anyone's guess.
The thing is... what you're reporting is one I haven't heard before. If the vehicle hasn't been moved since the change, move it enough rule out electric interference produced by overhead wiring, florescent lighting, etc...

 

[adriver]

IVR4 is what ? I'll guess aftermarket solid state electronic regulator. You're guessing that could produce static because mechanical points produce a "pop" noise. The same capasitor employed to reduce/remove your static would be anyone's guess.
The thing is... what you're reporting is one I haven't heard before. If the vehicle hasn't been moved since the change, move it enough rule out electric interference produced by overhead wiring, florescent lighting, etc...

IVR4 is one of the electronic ones from RTE which you mention in post 13.
The only reason I did not leave the cap in the 73 is that it's 45 years old and what if it failed?
I sort of wanted to let it be known that this is an issue since a capacitor is not supposed to be "necessary" with the solid state unit.

Number "4)" here:

http://rt-eng.com/rte/images/c/c7/LimiterManualIVR4_E.pdf

But the AM is now useless. It is a older radio with a cassette player. Probably from the 90s?
The car is a daily driver and I'm pretty sure it's the capacitor.

I'm putting the capacitor back in this weekend and will report on it. I'm real good at pulling the cluster and it will take me an hour or two.

I also bought a IVR3 for a 67 car. I'll have to open the gauge for that one.
Nice to know this may be an issue before I do that.

 

[RedFish]

IVR4 is one of the electronic ones from RTE which you mention in post 13.
I also bought a IVR3 for a 67 car. I'll have to open the gauge for that one.
Nice to know this may be an issue before I do that.

No you don't. nobody ever needed to open a 3 post gauge to disable the mechanical limiter. A heck of a lot folks have done more harm than good by attempting to open a gauge.
The truth is, No matter where a electrical component is located, if the current path is broken, it cant function. Interrupt positive, interrupt ground, same result.
Lift a 3 post gauge from the panel and you'll find its mounting much different from typical 2 post gauges. There's a metal to metal connection on the back of a 3 post gauge that provides ground to/for a internal limiter. 2 post gauges have a single current path through the sender to ground. They are isolated from ground in the inst' panel mounting. So... Isolate that 3 post gauge from ground and that limiter is disabled, totally irrelevant. If the sender path through the other 2 posts is good ( this gauge measures 20 ohms ) the gauge will function just like any 2 post gauge.
Apparently you do have both standard and rally panels on hand so you could dig a little and figure this to be correct/true for yourself. You too might suspect that RTE never had a complete rally panel and a workbench. I assume they had a gauge alone and snapped a pic or 2 of what they thought was the necessary procedure.
The fact is, IF when bending the little thingy you should break the windings insulation shorting it to the bi-metal beam its wound on and didn't isolate that short from ground, this would function ( conduct current ) much like another, and defective, gauge attached to theirs or any secondary regulator installed. In effect, what you did was open one connection/current path and create another. And if that limiter was dead it might already be shorted. So why bother opening the gauge when all you really need to do is isolate the gauge housing from ground in the first place?
The villain that desired the shroud of darkness didn't go into the bulb to disable the light. He simply unscrewed the bulb a turn or two. Same principle.
I realized I couldn't undo this mess that had been created on the internet here but also realized at this point the creator(s) of this mess cant undo it either so... Good luck either way you go.

 

[adriver]

No you don't. nobody ever needed to open a 3 post gauge to disable the mechanical limiter. A heck of a lot folks have done more harm than good by attempting to open a gauge.
The truth is, No matter where a electrical component is located, if the current path is broken, it cant function. Interrupt positive, interrupt ground, same result.
Lift a 3 post gauge from the panel and you'll find its mounting much different from typical 2 post gauges. There's a metal to metal connection on the back of a 3 post gauge that provides ground to/for a internal limiter. 2 post gauges have a single current path through the sender to ground. They are isolated from ground in the inst' panel mounting. So... Isolate that 3 post gauge from ground and that limiter is disabled, totally irrelevant. If the sender path through the other 2 posts is good ( this gauge measures 20 ohms ) the gauge will function just like any 2 post gauge.
Apparently you do have both standard and rally panels on hand so you could dig a little and figure this to be correct/true for yourself. You too might suspect that RTE never had a complete rally panel and a workbench. I assume they had a gauge alone and snapped a pic or 2 of what they thought was the necessary procedure.
The fact is, IF when bending the little thingy you should break the windings insulation shorting it to the bi-metal beam its wound on and didn't isolate that short from ground, this would function ( conduct current ) much like another, and defective, gauge attached to theirs or any secondary regulator installed. In effect, what you did was open one connection/current path and create another. So why bother opening the gauge when all you really need to do is isolate the gauge housing from ground in the first place?
The villain that desired the shroud of darkness didn't go into the switch to disable the light. He simply unscrewed the bulb a turn or two. Same principle.
I realized I couldn't undo this mess that had been created on the internet here but also realized at this point the creator(s) of this mess cant undo it either so... Good luck either way you go.

Good to know.
I just now looked at the 67 cluster for the first time.
It's a scary crimped shut metal box where the limiter is.
It's a 67 Charger BTW.
What a nightmare.
(Electorlumiwhat he said after he bought the car.)
I will study that IVR3 install on that car more closely before touching it.
And I will also report back next week with my modified factory detailed prints on the 73 after we see that the capacitor corrects the snow on AM radio.
Thanks.

 

[RedFish]

Yeah, Some have started by separating this screen from its stand off supports ( which is even more unnecessary foolishness ). Others break the fibrous back board. It is always fragile and sometimes extremely brittle.

 

[adriver]

Yeah, Some have started by separating this screen from its stand off supports ( which is even more unnecessary foolishness ). Others break the fibrous back board. It is always fragile and sometimes extremely brittle.

The good news is that I turned on AM last night on the way home from work and it was fine.
So I won't have to pull the cluster back out.
You were correct in that I was getting interference in the two or three places I checked.
It's an "Audiovox" cheap from the 90s maybe and the AM in particular has never been good.
Sometimes it has sounded like a beat frequency oscillator to me when I get interference.
And there is a cone in town where the city has a big antenna and I can't get anything there.
So my bad.
But here is my current problem with installing an IVR3 before I put these back in.
I know you can't tell everything by the pictures, but any suggestions from your experience would be welcomed.
Thank you in advance.
(Damn. Pictures are rotated.)
I'll work on that. See next post.

 

[adriver]

Second try

 

[RedFish]

I had assumed your other car was A-body rallye panel ( Barracuda ). Charger aint A-body. How to open the gauge I typed earlier doesn't exactly apply to what you have here. Close enough to geter done ( if you intend to open it ). Anyway...
The noise cap goes at 12 volt all examples. If you dont have a ring terminal on a blue wire to attach at that post along with the noise cap' you'll have assume the 12 volt supply is inside the cluster housing through the side of this gauge can.
Only "neg" is chassis. This gauge has chassis ground connection right in the middle of the back just like the other 3 post gauge examples though. Lift it and look at its back. There's a thin strip of metal captured under those 2 bent tangs you can see now. If the gauge is good you only need to cover that with a couple layers of electric tape to disable the internal limiter. First... measure ohms "A" to "S".
There wont be a wire to "A" ( marked 5V this example ) post of this gauge. That connection/current path is inside this gauge. That 5 volts does have to get out again to G3 and G3A routed to the other 2 thermal instruments ( yellow wires? I forget ).
"S" post(s) gets sender wires. Temp is purple, oil is gray.
And just so you're aware, transformer for electro-luminescent stores a charge that will knock your socks off.

 

[67Dart273]

Some time ago I came across a big "how to" on Charger clusters. The high voltage illumination came from a separate HV inverter. 250V? or so sticks in my mind.

 

[adriver]

Thanks to both of you.
I work with 750-900 Volts DC everyday and still alive.
A little internet searching and I could have avoided asking "stupid" questions.
This car is a real SOB. Takes dedication and stupidly to do one.

I really really really wish I had internal prints of the meter.
But a picture does help.
Source Guide

I THINK what this person below is saying the same thing Redfish says.

Fuel gauge conversion for 66 Charger
Post number #5
i.e. Bending the arm is the WRONG thing to do since the 12 volt feed wire is still warped around it and could ground.
Like in the RTE picture.
I see that little wire feeding both the meter arm and the limiter arm.
Image:Imperial1.jpg - rte



(The guy from Sweden, post 6, has a good picture of the insides. Jord=Ground. Till bisin tanken would be to the tank I guess.)



He recommends removing the internal limiter entirely and doing what appears to be reconnecting that part of the circuit (meter wire) to the new 5 volt feed (of whatever limiter is used ) to the post.

 

[RedFish]

I practiced and preached complete limiter amputation only because I always opened the gauge to inspect. The fuel gauge has a different duty cycle/lives a different life from the other 2 thermal instruments. It runs hotter, especially where the limiter generates heat in the same can. A full tank of fuel not only generates more heat but there's a rapid heat/needle swing with every ignition switch cycle too. After 50 years labor, Over 90% of those I opened were fried. Soooo I removed the limiter while in there for this other reason ( although it wasn't absolutely necessary to remove it ).
And to go all the way... completely removing the limiter includes removing that chassis ground connection. There's a separate fault condition related to that chassis ground path in the a-body rallye cluster that I need not go into here. Anyway...
My only surprises were the few fuel gauges that didn't need complete renew and the 3 different factory defectives that should have never been put in a car.