Pulled the Mess that was my Timing Chain....

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Well.... very good progress. Congrats!

It is easy enough to check the timing using the info provided with just removing the valve cover and accurately finding TDC on #1 with a TDC tool that goes into the spark plug hole. (You can make one yourself with an old plug and a tap and a long threaded soft bolt, like a carriage bolt.) Do that to make sure that is or is not an issue, since you just replaced the chain.

Is the idle down where it should be now? The condenser fixed one ignition issue and the correct ballast made the spark energy and thus the idle a lot better.

Where is the points gap set at? Should be .017 to .023", and the points contacts should be smooth on both sides; if there is any roughness or metal build up on either of the 2 points contacts, then use emery cloth to smooth them; a bad condenser can make the points transfer metal from one side to the other and rough points contact will cause irregular spark . Also, take the spark rotor off and see if the if distributor shaft wobbles sideways a lot; try to move it towards and away from the points rubbing block. If the shaft or bushings are worn, then it could be changing the points gap dramatically and that will change the points dwell and that causes the charge of the coil to vary over the map. A few thousandths wobble, up to .005" or so, would be OK.

When you say the engine dies after about 10 seconds of idle, if is shuts off suddenly, then this typically indicates an ignition problem.

Put your voltmeter on the blue wire to the ballast and monitor the voltage. It should stay around 12v idling. When the engine dies, see if this stays near 12v or drops close to 0. If it drops close to 0, then something is wrong in the ignition switch or the wiring and connections from it to the ballast.

Sounds like you are a good candidate for an HEI upgrade if you don't want to keep the points system for some reason. (I keep mine for the sake of having a 98-99% original car.) The HEI will be give better spark.
 
Due to an event at school today, I only got limited time to fiddle with my car. Had the former shop teacher fiddle with my idle screw. Started up great, immediate, was running good but really high for idle (1000-1200). So, as he slowly began to decrease the idle, it began to run rougher and rougher, shaking more. He had me tap the gas and let off, where the idle set itself lower, like it should. It did that three times, then it died once when I hit the gas. We turned it back on, did it again one more time, where it decreased idle, and then second time it died. Inconsistent. Turns right back on, but after some time (with the lower idle now) it just dies.

Points are set to .017". I checked underneath the distributor cap and, uh-oh, the carbon center is worn down to partial metal, and it looks like there are sparkles around the points on the cap. Could that possibly be causing arc in the current for problems? Mind you, I just replaced this no more than the day before I got it running! Points are smooth all around, and I didn't sense any much movement from the shaft horizontally. There is, however, some movement up and down on the shaft, which a lot of people found odd.

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I will check the ballast too.....once I get the coolant back into the car. >.< I came back after class to see he already drained the coolant, wanting me to tear apart the front of the car to get the timing chain! I want to do these tests first before I dig into an hour and a half worth of work.
 
Turn the timing until the car runs good down the road, don't worry where the timing marks are.
Back off a little until it don't ping.
Real world timing is now set.
 
My problem isn't that it doesn't run good down the road, it does, but I cannot let up off the gas for any period of time, otherwise, it dies. Perhaps that doesn't fit under "running good". It also doesn't idle smooth until it is about 900-1000+ RPMs, and you may as well be hitting the gas. Timing is at 10 BTDC.
 
Man reading this makes me not want to wrench on my 6! "It ran fine before I took it apart..." story of all the good mechanics! your distributor, new or junk, is BAD. 1/8 end play on the shaft is ridiculous. I got 2 points distributors (you can have both!) and they both have less than 1mm of end play. I used a quarter and the loosest one has less than 1/2 quarter width play. Here is what happens with mucho endplay: the distributor runs on a hypoid gear, if it moves up and down, the relationship between the dizzy shaft and the camshaft changes, and so does the timing, so you are all over the board on timing. look at the gear, is it pinned on? there should be a washer/spacer right above it. second is your fuel pressure. pinch the fuel line with a pair of vice grips and slowly turn the adjuster so it crushes the line until your idle flattens out like when you unhooked the fuel pump. I think your fuel pressure is too high or your needle/seat is just bad, check for nicks under a loupe or magnifying glass, or pony up the 2 bucks and replace. I got a "not running for years" 6 for almost free, and the thing fired up [ame]https://youtu.be/f9uU5G3rIkg[/ame] and ran like a watch (which promptly ran out of fuel bowl gas) and when I took the lifters out to replace the cam, 1/2 of them were worn silly along with the lobes and the chain was almost hitting the cover it was so loose so they dont take much to run good, even when they are in terrible shape. Bad gas, no way: these can run on Bourbon with their 7:1 compression.
 
"these can run on Bourbon with their 7:1 compression"..... I bet that would smell pretty good!

Geez, I can't believe your shop teacher does not know how to check cam timing from outside the engine. That is just dumb. Siiiigh...

The inside of the distributor cap does not look too awful on the posts. But again, please go over to www.slantsix.org and look up the best caps and rotors.
 
pics of distributor gears, note end play tolerance: ie, none. Ill send one just give me an address. Heck, I gave away my 1920 to another member. they are still out there.
Do not confuse end play to a loose rotor shaft, they are 2 pieces held together with a circlip or bolt inside hollow rotor mount.
 

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He does, but tells me it just wouldn't be accurate and it would be better to check the chain. Basically, we're doing this and I can't say otherwise. Grr, I'll just grab a guy or two and help me pull apart real quick, it's not like I don't know what to do...

I will post again on Slantsix.

It's not the bottom with the hear on it that moves, it's the tip where the rotor connects to. Wobbles around, up and down, and doesn't affect the end play. This is with the rotor disconnected. I will PM you.
 
Well, timing chain is out in the open again! Thanks to another shop hour class for doing most of the work for me!

Aaaand....looks good to me!

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Now, somebody on Slantsix mentioned to degree the cam? I have seen the dial you can print out and put on, but have never done it. I'm also a little nervous on messing with it if it's good.
 
Degreeing it and then adjusting for a little cam advance will help the low end torque and feel good. But you need to have the car running so you can figure out the current problem. IMO, skip the degreeing for now; it can be tedious, the timing adjustment takes some minor mods, and just getting in the new chain will take out 4-5-6 degrees of retarded cam timing anyway and make it fee like a new car....if it idles right!

The crank sprocket teeth wear pattern seems pretty deep for these few miles. This is the block with the deep wear groove behind the cam sprocket, right?
 
Yes, while the torquey improvement would be great, but so would driving it period! As for the sprocket teeth, they were like that then we installed it.
 
Any progress? You must be driving it so much you don't have time for an update.

BTW, the FSM says to space the distributor gear away from the housing with a .007" shim so I guess that's the recommended end play. I'll be doing this soon as I just ordered a new gear from NAPA. P/N 655-1120. Actually 2, one for the car and one for the glove box.
 
Haha, that would be great! I actually came on here to report some new findings. I am still having trouble when idling, but with a vacuum gauge and timing light hooked up, I was able to do some more critical work. I haven't been able to really work and diagnose the problem, and it's frustrating that my teacher is focusing on other things like the alternator belt being a tad loose. (It's still operating normally according to the dash.)

Started right up, like normal. Timing light has a tach meter on it and it read at 1500 RPM at startup! Goodness! As we allowed it to warm up, it cut off it's idle slowly like it should, down from 1450-1500, to 1200-1300, and then finally it was slowly going down to running rough at 800-900 RPMs. It was struggling to run smooth and was hunting for idle speed from the 830's-960's, occasionally going and dropping into the 760's and then surging up. Finally, it went down to below 760 and it sputtered out and died. Timing was at about 17-20 BTDC.


Vacuum testing. Hooked it up to the carb where the hose would connect to the air filter. The vacuum at first was very rough, at around 16-17 mm hg, but when I placed my hand over the carb to choke the air up (I did feel suction), and the idle raised and evened out from 1200 to 1400 (this was when it was warming up), and the vacuum shot up to 19-21. So we placed the air filter on, and now the vacuum hovers at 19-20.5, slowly bouncing in between them and changing whenever the idle goes up or down. When the RPMs tried to slow down to 700, it really began to drop down to 15, lower and then it died, with air filter on.

Choke, I noticed was wide open all the way upon startup, and didn't seem to change position as it was warming up, but then we placed the air filter on in an attempt to even out the idle and did not see if it was changing at all.

Screwing the initial idling screw in about one and a half turns did not seem to change idle too much.

I did find an unplugged vacuum hose during the warmup process. Plugging it in to the round circle vacuum thing on the passenger side (forgot to take a picture), it helped even out the idle at around 800-900.


According to one of these vacuum testing worksheets I have from the previous shop teacher who printed them out, a steady back and fourth from 1-2 points on vacuum means spark plug gaps are spaced too close. I am going back in after school today and -sigh- after tightening the alternator belt just that one touch more, can go about to fixing the problem. Did feel good to prove to my classmates though that it DID indeed run!
 
Update: adjusted spark plug gaps , most were too tight. All had a light ash color to the tips too. Put then back in, started my car. Ran even at 1200, and the vacuum variation is gone, now sitting at 19 steady. Vacuum is normal when I hit the throttle, jumping from 10 up to 23. I even put the car into reverse and drive, dropped in idle and was even and didn't die or anything! Put it back into park, and then the problems arose again when the car heated up. Rough idle, slowly dropping in rpms until hitting just below 750, and it died. I can start it again when hot, but it dies immediately. It's it the carb, the coil I hear can overheat? I'm so close, I know it!
 
Having the air filter on or of should make not difference in idle, hot or cold, fast or slow. Does it run with good vacuum with the air cleaner off now that the plugs are set better? If you need to air cleaner on to run right then something is very much wrong there. Can you show some detailed photos of the carb and ALL the hoses in and out of it and where they go? I am suspecting that your hoses, or some vacuum activated parts, are mucked up.

If the idle is dropping down as it warms up , it says the choke spring is working basically right. But the choke plate not working at all makes me suspect the linkage is not connected right.

Sounds like you are learning a lot... I think!
 
I forgot to take off the air cleaner while it was running well when cold. I was happy enough that it idled in drive! I will check first thing tomorrow, since it will be nice and cold. I think it might improve. If not, I will post some more pictures.

With the air cleaner off, I'll also be able to watch the choke as well as it warms up. It's very possible, since the only thinking linking the plate to the linkage itself is this wire....

As a side note, I checked the metering of the coil just to be curious. Measured 1.2 ohms on the primary circuit. I'm not entirely sure what it is supposed to be. The coil was actually cool to the touch, and I recently ran the engine 10 minutes ago. If it were overheating, I would think it would still be at least a little warm like the coolant hoses were.

I sure feel like I am! I'm at a point though where it sure would be nice to drive it out of the shop!
 
So being curious, I tried a different coil. We actually got it to run rough, but running. Adjusted fast idle, got it actually running as smooth as ever. Put it on reverse, good. Backed it out of the garage. Uh oh, squeaking noise! Power steering belt was loose. Turned the car off, checked it, tightened it, went to turn on the car. Starts, but just dies. No sputter, no fighting, just dies. Roll it back into the garage. We tuned it again, backed it out, and dies a slow death in reverse. Roll it back in. There is a hissing noise from the carb,. And idle does change slightly when air filter is on. It has to be the carburetor. It can't be timing or electric. Not a vacuum leak, now steady at 20. I'm going to tear it apart this weekend. It was very dusty when I got it, who know where that dust got into it.
 
Dodge72 said:
So being curious, I tried a different coil. We actually got it to run rough, but running. Adjusted fast idle, got it actually running as smooth as ever. Put it on reverse, good. Backed it out of the garage. Uh oh, squeaking noise! Power steering belt was loose. Turned the car off, checked it, tightened it, went to turn on the car. Starts, but just dies. No sputter, no fighting, just dies. Roll it back into the garage. We tuned it again, backed it out, and dies a slow death in reverse. Roll it back in. There is a hissing noise from the carb,. And idle does change slightly when air filter is on. It has to be the carburetor. It can't be timing or electric. Not a vacuum leak, now steady at 20. I'm going to tear it apart this weekend. It was very dusty when I got it, who know where that dust got into it.
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Try giving it a shot of gas directly in the carb once it's warm and won't stay running.

If it stays running longer, then you have a fuel delivery issue. If not, then you don't. Rule that out, and it narrows things down a bit for you.

If you do, then it could be the filter/pump or combination. Basically, once you start putting a load on the engine, you're using fuel faster than it's reaching the bowls.
 
Warmed the car up, took about four minutes. The second it starts to drop to warm idle, it struggles and then it's a slippery slope from there. Got some gas and sprayed it in the carb when warm , sure enough, I kept her alive for another moment before choking itself out.
 
Dodge72 said:
Warmed the car up, took about four minutes. The second it starts to drop to warm idle, it struggles and then it's a slippery slope from there. Got some gas and sprayed it in the carb when warm , sure enough, I kept her alive for another moment before choking itself out.
Click to expand...

When you say 'warm idle', what do you mean? Are you running it on the high idle cam from the choke at first?

Back to basics: fuel filter, fuel pump, 'vapor lock'. The hissing you heard from your carb could be fuel boiling off the bottom of the intake that's been squirted by the accel pump as you're trying to pedal it to keep it running. It could be fuel boiling in the carb for some reason. It could be an engine gnome taunting you... Do you smell fuel near the carb once it shuts itself off? If so, fuel may be boiling off.

Start with the easy stuff: fuel filter. Pull it and maybe run some gas backwards through it, into a drain pan, and see if you get rust or crud. If you have a mechanical pump, disconnect it from your carb and run it into a container and crank the engine to see if you get (clean) fuel flow.

After that, look for evidence of too-high a temperature near the carb. What's your coolant temp when it dies? Can you hold your hand against the intake near the carb base (heat-wise) after it dies? If it's too hot, or your carb is screaming hot, it could help to explain what's going on. Anything else out of the ordinary can help indicate what's wrong and causing your issue. Be observant! :D
 
Car was sitting for 4 hours, so it was in the cold cam setting. No fuel lines, hoses, or carb felt blistering hot. I have intentionally routed the fuel house up and around the engine block front the front to be away front the hot block and exhaust valves. I saw no fuel bubbles or anything front my in line fuel filter. No discoloration or fogging. Haven't checked the actual fuel filter. Coolant just beginning to build pressure and steam....I should know, coolant hose wasnt tightened on all the way at first. I can't accurately gauge temperature with the dash, I'm pretty sure that's broken! It never gets past 135 degrees!

From looking underneath the car when it was lifted, the fuel tank looks relatively new. Of course, might not mean anything. I have pics of the carb and hoses, need to get home to post them.
 
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