Dodge72
Odd one out
The leak down test earlier was somewhat inaccurate with a misaligned test. We tested it again with a more accurate one, first dry then with oil: Dry test was around 66%, with oil was not much better at around 62%.
Pulled the Mess that was my Timing Chain....
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Dodge72
Odd one out
Finally putting it all back together. Installed the timing chain, oil pump, and fuel pump back on. Also spent some time with a putty knife and scraping off globs and handfuls of old gunk and grease off, revealing the much nicer looking turquoise paint underneath it all.
I torqued down the camshaft sprocket bolt properly and then took the sprocket and tried to wiggle it to see if it would wiggle from the worn surface. No movement at all.
I know there are a billion questions about timing already on the Slant topic, but I wanted to ask now because I replaced the camshaft and the rocker shaft is off (so all the valves are closed). I know that when the dots on the sprockets point at each other, you need to set it to #6 on the distributor. But my teacher was telling me that since all the valves are closed anyways, you could set it to #1 and be fine. My thought is is that once I get the lifters and the rest of the top end put together, #6 will still be on the power stroke while #1 will be on exhaust rather than power. Am I right, or is he right?
Tomorrow I'll be checking the rear main seal just to see if it is leaking (since it's all torn apart anyways), then pushing through to clean, lube, and bolt the oil pan, install a new water pump, and put on timing cover and hopefully install lifters and push rods if I have time... I'm feeling better already that I can double/triple check everything to make sure it will run better than ever.
Progress, it's happening!
I torqued down the camshaft sprocket bolt properly and then took the sprocket and tried to wiggle it to see if it would wiggle from the worn surface. No movement at all.
I know there are a billion questions about timing already on the Slant topic, but I wanted to ask now because I replaced the camshaft and the rocker shaft is off (so all the valves are closed). I know that when the dots on the sprockets point at each other, you need to set it to #6 on the distributor. But my teacher was telling me that since all the valves are closed anyways, you could set it to #1 and be fine. My thought is is that once I get the lifters and the rest of the top end put together, #6 will still be on the power stroke while #1 will be on exhaust rather than power. Am I right, or is he right?
Tomorrow I'll be checking the rear main seal just to see if it is leaking (since it's all torn apart anyways), then pushing through to clean, lube, and bolt the oil pan, install a new water pump, and put on timing cover and hopefully install lifters and push rods if I have time... I'm feeling better already that I can double/triple check everything to make sure it will run better than ever.
Progress, it's happening!
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Did you put locktite on the cam sprocket bolt and torque to at least 45 ft-lbs? That torque is beyond the spec but is needed to have the best luck in keeping it tight.
You can't swap the pointing of the distributor rotor button; the crank does not care (probably your instructor's point) but the cam certainly does. BTW, with the dots lined up, the 1/6 cylinders are not quite at TDC; they are something like 17 degrees off of TDC.
I hope you don't have any adverse effects from the cam setting back.....keep us posted for a while. You might want to pull a lifter after a few thousand miles and check the wear pattern. You did get new lifters with your new cam, right?
You can't swap the pointing of the distributor rotor button; the crank does not care (probably your instructor's point) but the cam certainly does. BTW, with the dots lined up, the 1/6 cylinders are not quite at TDC; they are something like 17 degrees off of TDC.
I hope you don't have any adverse effects from the cam setting back.....keep us posted for a while. You might want to pull a lifter after a few thousand miles and check the wear pattern. You did get new lifters with your new cam, right?
Dodge72
Odd one out
Yes, locktite was applied and I required down to 50 ft lbs, which was the spec in my book.
The distributor is out anyways. If they are 17 degrees off, will that affect setting the distributor, out it's it just fine tuning?
Yes, I got new lifters. Those will be lubed up good and installed today. I'll keep that in mind to check wear pattern, thanks for the tip.
The distributor is out anyways. If they are 17 degrees off, will that affect setting the distributor, out it's it just fine tuning?
Yes, I got new lifters. Those will be lubed up good and installed today. I'll keep that in mind to check wear pattern, thanks for the tip.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Cool. Yeah, the 17 degree thing is fine tuning; just be aware of it.
I assume you are using a moly lube on the new lifters and cam?
I assume you are using a moly lube on the new lifters and cam?
Nice progress!
I don't know much (working on y first slanty) but I found the oil holes in my rocker shaft and rockers were plugged with dried sludge after sitting for 32 years. Easy for you to check now. I removed the plugs in the end of the rocker shaft to clean it better and got new plugs from Rockauto. They're like mini freeze plugs.
I think I remember reading on slantsix.org that the cam actually uses the rear of the block for rear ward thrust so your block wear in the front may not be an issue. That probably was caused by the loose cam gear when you got it. Dutra also shows how to make an adjustable thrust stop that welds into the timing cover in the front. May not be necessary but it's an option and something to play with.
I'm pretty sure the engines in 72 were blue, not turquoise. You can degrease and clean yours thoroughly when you get it all together and rattle can it so it looks like new. Most auto parts stores have Chrysler blue on the shelf.
I don't know much (working on y first slanty) but I found the oil holes in my rocker shaft and rockers were plugged with dried sludge after sitting for 32 years. Easy for you to check now. I removed the plugs in the end of the rocker shaft to clean it better and got new plugs from Rockauto. They're like mini freeze plugs.
I think I remember reading on slantsix.org that the cam actually uses the rear of the block for rear ward thrust so your block wear in the front may not be an issue. That probably was caused by the loose cam gear when you got it. Dutra also shows how to make an adjustable thrust stop that welds into the timing cover in the front. May not be necessary but it's an option and something to play with.
I'm pretty sure the engines in 72 were blue, not turquoise. You can degrease and clean yours thoroughly when you get it all together and rattle can it so it looks like new. Most auto parts stores have Chrysler blue on the shelf.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
The only thing in the back of the cam is the rear cam plug and the cam does not ride on that at all. The rear thrust face is the front of the block. Stock, there is no forward thrust control. The lifter contact points (and I think the oil pump mesh direction) are what keep the sprocket back against the front of the block.
Here ya go with the info: www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24119&highlight=
Dodge72
Odd one out
I picked up a tube of engine assembly lube with moly-graphite in it, some "black stuff" that seemed to match up with the description of what my grandpa told me to get. I'm assuming that this is what you're talking about?
Today was a slow day, after trying to replace the rear main bearing seal. While it's out, you know? We were having trouble getting the bottom half out. We took a welding rod (it was a thin one, we may need something thicker) and hammered one side, making sure we didn't nick anything, but as one side went down, the other side did not raise at all. Could it possibly be that it was an older rope seal? Tomorrow we'll get something else a little thicker to try and pop it out.
Today was a slow day, after trying to replace the rear main bearing seal. While it's out, you know? We were having trouble getting the bottom half out. We took a welding rod (it was a thin one, we may need something thicker) and hammered one side, making sure we didn't nick anything, but as one side went down, the other side did not raise at all. Could it possibly be that it was an older rope seal? Tomorrow we'll get something else a little thicker to try and pop it out.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
I have used AL or brass welding rods but don't use steel. It may be easier to just remove the caps and lift the crank a bit. Probably is a rope seal as the neoprenes always seem to have a steel 'backbone'. That one sounds really stuck.
Yeah, the black moly stuff is what I have used for 30-40 yrs.
Yeah, the black moly stuff is what I have used for 30-40 yrs.
Thanks for the link. I'm waiting for my reground cam to arrive from Oregon Cam (shipped last Friday) The bagged/bored/honed block is on the engine stand at home so I have nothing to look at.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Just one more thing related to this: the lifter-to-cam contact points are what make the lifters rotate continuously to even out wear (and which also rotates the pushrods). The cam being back with move the lifter contact point forward on the cam lobes. It ought to still rotate the lifters, but I would check that visually after start-up.
I would start the engine and run it at fast idle for 10-15 minutes as the recommended initial cam break in. Then remove the valve cover to re-check valve settings and run the engine at low idle to watch for the lifter rotation and the oiling dribble from the rockers.
Dodge72
Odd one out
The minor setback with the rear main bearing is fixed. We ended up lifting the crankshaft out of the way to scrape the nasty old thing out of there, cleaned it up, and installed the new set. Now moving forward again by buttoning everything back up ad clean it real good, especially take some time to clean the engine bay as well.
My camshaft was from a rebuilt slant in it that was already in at 1000 miles. Should I still break in the cam? I will probably do it anyways just for safe measure.
My camshaft was from a rebuilt slant in it that was already in at 1000 miles. Should I still break in the cam? I will probably do it anyways just for safe measure.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, well absolutely. As mentioned, the lifter-to-cam contact points will be off due to the block wear, and even without that, they could/would be a bit different in a different block anyhow. So a new wear pattern will have to be established. Due to the block change, actual new (or properly reground) lifters are needed. The same lifters that came with the used cam likely won't have the same contact points when in a different block.
Dodge72
Odd one out
I bought completely new lifters, I didn't get them with the used camshaft.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
OK, I was not clear what 'new' meant; good deal!
Dodge72
Odd one out
Got just about everything all buttoned up on the bottom half, now it's about flipping it over and installing the lifters and pushrods, and should be good to go back in. Yes, progress is extremely slow going, and I wish I could spend an entire day finishing it up and driving it home, but I don't have the luxury.
On a fun note however, the class is going to be rolling my car outside to get the engine bay hosed down and all nice and clean for the cleaned engine! Started on it today, and a lot of it is just brown dirt that has been stuck there. All good metal underneath, nothing worse than surface rust.
On a fun note however, the class is going to be rolling my car outside to get the engine bay hosed down and all nice and clean for the cleaned engine! Started on it today, and a lot of it is just brown dirt that has been stuck there. All good metal underneath, nothing worse than surface rust.
Dodge72
Odd one out
Got the timing chain cover installed. Engine is finally right side up again and lifters, pushrods, and the rocker shaft will be installed tomorrow! Should be all ready to go back in after tomorrow!
Dodge72
Odd one out
After the engine bay gets a hose down tomorrow, should be ready to go...after this one final detail. Now, nm9stheham said:
Would that be BTDC or ATDC? Now I'm a little concerned that my timing won't be any better than it was last time, causing some drivability issues. We're going to try and get it timed right the first time, so when we crank it over for the first time we aren't trying to fiddle too much with the distributor to get it to run decent. The timing chain we put on it was identical to the one we pulled off, we lined up the dots and closed it all up. For the distributor timing, would I leave the dots where they are and simply turn it slightly before or slightly after #1?
Would that be BTDC or ATDC? Now I'm a little concerned that my timing won't be any better than it was last time, causing some drivability issues. We're going to try and get it timed right the first time, so when we crank it over for the first time we aren't trying to fiddle too much with the distributor to get it to run decent. The timing chain we put on it was identical to the one we pulled off, we lined up the dots and closed it all up. For the distributor timing, would I leave the dots where they are and simply turn it slightly before or slightly after #1?
Charrlie_S
Well-Known Member
Don't even worry about the dots for ign timing. Put number one cyl at TDC compression (both valves closed) install the distributor with the rotor pointing at # 1 spark plug tower.
Turn dist so the points just open (if using points dist), or the reluctor is even with the pole piece of the pickup (electronic dist).
FYI: if you have the dots lined up, #6 cyl is TDC compression, and if you install the dist pointing at #1, your timing will be 180 degree off.
PS: Where has your shop instructor been during all this? Hasn't he/she been able to answer most of your questions?
Turn dist so the points just open (if using points dist), or the reluctor is even with the pole piece of the pickup (electronic dist).
FYI: if you have the dots lined up, #6 cyl is TDC compression, and if you install the dist pointing at #1, your timing will be 180 degree off.
PS: Where has your shop instructor been during all this? Hasn't he/she been able to answer most of your questions?
Dodge72
Odd one out
I did know I have to point it to number 6 if the dots lined up. I'll line the distributor up like that...I've got points. (For now)
My instructor had been able to answer a lot of questions, but is completely unfamiliar with this engine. Plus he has been busy with other cars, so it's up to me to look the procedures and specs up myself. Today I'm be getting the pulleys all on and timing aligned with the distributor. After a spray down of the engine bay, it'll be ready to go back in.
My instructor had been able to answer a lot of questions, but is completely unfamiliar with this engine. Plus he has been busy with other cars, so it's up to me to look the procedures and specs up myself. Today I'm be getting the pulleys all on and timing aligned with the distributor. After a spray down of the engine bay, it'll be ready to go back in.
Dodge72
Odd one out
The slant is back in the car today! We really worked great with multiple pairs of hands helping to get everything bolted up. We ran out of time, but tomorrow if we work as well as today, I should have almost everything bolted back up and ready to pour in some fluids and get it going.
(Fingers crossed!)
So for the camshaft break in, I've been reading things here and on SlantSix that normally people keep the engine revving in between 1500-2500 RPMs for 15-20 minutes, then some say they shut the car off, drain the oil due to the break in lube, replace the filter and drive it moderately for the first 500 miles, then replace it again. In regards to timing, should it be well enough that it can run, then fine tune it afterwards?
I've been trying to read up a lot on initial and total timing with mechanical and vacuum advancing. But for the latter, I'll probably just drive it home first (it's not far, like 3 miles) so I can tinker with it there. But that's after the car is all said and done and it's ready for that.
EDIT: I keep forgetting questions. This one had my teacher stumped and unable to answer; should I add zinc to my oil to break in the cam and lifters?
(Fingers crossed!)
So for the camshaft break in, I've been reading things here and on SlantSix that normally people keep the engine revving in between 1500-2500 RPMs for 15-20 minutes, then some say they shut the car off, drain the oil due to the break in lube, replace the filter and drive it moderately for the first 500 miles, then replace it again. In regards to timing, should it be well enough that it can run, then fine tune it afterwards?
I've been trying to read up a lot on initial and total timing with mechanical and vacuum advancing. But for the latter, I'll probably just drive it home first (it's not far, like 3 miles) so I can tinker with it there. But that's after the car is all said and done and it's ready for that.
EDIT: I keep forgetting questions. This one had my teacher stumped and unable to answer; should I add zinc to my oil to break in the cam and lifters?
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
I personally would not use any zinc additive. The zinc levels anymore are not all that low compared to the past. And a given additive that is not compatible with the additive package already present in the oil can very well lower the oil's protectoin levels.
You used the cam lube and that has always been enough for my break-ins. The filter change may be a good idea; I never have in a lot of new engines with no issue. I personally would not drain the oil for a few hundred miles but others may do differently.
I just keep the rev's up around 1500 for 15 minutes and then go from there, making sure to varying the RPM'sa lot for a while and gradually increasing the torque used.
You used the cam lube and that has always been enough for my break-ins. The filter change may be a good idea; I never have in a lot of new engines with no issue. I personally would not drain the oil for a few hundred miles but others may do differently.
I just keep the rev's up around 1500 for 15 minutes and then go from there, making sure to varying the RPM'sa lot for a while and gradually increasing the torque used.
I think it is far more likely to wipe a cam when using a radical cam with stiff valve springs. A stock /6 cam and springs is less likely to have a problem.
I talked this over with my engine machinist and he recommended Brad Penn oil. He sells the stuff and has not seen a single failure. He told me not to use additives, just the right oil and that's it. He's been doing this since 1962 and I trust his knowledge. He also told me to change the oil at 100 miles. This is for my 225 with bore/hone, new pistons, etc.
Someone posted the a few days ago that NAPA has Valvoline VR oil on sale for $4.29/qt. This oil has high ZDDP content so you just run it straight up and not worry.
I talked this over with my engine machinist and he recommended Brad Penn oil. He sells the stuff and has not seen a single failure. He told me not to use additives, just the right oil and that's it. He's been doing this since 1962 and I trust his knowledge. He also told me to change the oil at 100 miles. This is for my 225 with bore/hone, new pistons, etc.
Someone posted the a few days ago that NAPA has Valvoline VR oil on sale for $4.29/qt. This oil has high ZDDP content so you just run it straight up and not worry.
Dodge72
Odd one out
Thanks guys for the input. Well, just about everything is put back together save for a few missing bolts (argh!), hooking up the starter, and hooking up the radiator. Doing that, and I should be ready to fire it up for the first time in a month! Really hopeful that the rest will go smoothly and I can finally remember what my car sounded like!
Think Positive and it'll go just like clockwork for you.
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