Pulled the Mess that was my Timing Chain....

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My options are getting limited with the increasingly dim chances of hearing this engine running without rebuilding the entire top end; and if you build the entire top end, why wouldn't you build the block end as well (not to mention the potential damage caused already)? And I did have plans on upgrading this engine, so if the entire thing got pulled, it would only make sense to make the upgrades now....


The idea my dad threw around was that if we removed the head and take a look at the pistons to see scarring or whatnot on the cylinders, he wants to just throw out the engine and replace it. Wasn't able to do a complete compression test (darn you other classes) but those I did see (only half) were around 100-115 psi, in the acceptable range. Honestly, I do not have a problem taking the time to rip it apart and learning in the best way possible. However, seeing one sloppy or lazy job after another going deeper into the engine, I'm truly concerned on the pros and cons of tearing it down and rebuilding it back up.


Kinda just writing my thoughts and the options I've heard. Perhaps some advice for a learner like me would be beneficial in terms of how to go on.
 
How many miles on the engine? And what other issues are there so far? I am not sure what issues you refer to with the 'top end'??? The chain and cam are part of the 'bottom end'. The '100' part of 100-115 psi is a bit on the low side. Common things I would be looking for are worn valve guides and worn rings/pistons.

If you replace the engine, don't toss it; there are some /6 guys up in the PNW who I imagine would take it. (Which is why you should post some on www.slantsix.org; several are there.) As for putting in another engine, if it is known good, that is one thing, but if not, it can be the same thing all over. I guess my main concern what to do with the groove behind the cam sprocket (assuming that is worn). Putting in another block is the easiest.

If 'twer me, I'd pull and rebuild at this point' specially if you are planning other mods. But, I also have not seen the engine or driven it so that makes my input sort of a knee-jerk reaction based in limited info. And, I have done a goodly number of engines so it is not daunting, and I don't mind spending the $$ on modest rebuilds because that is entertainment for me. Others won't view things the same way. You at least have plenty of support for this at the shop and with your dad, however you go.
 
nm9stheham said:
Since the varnish on the lifters is so common, I suspect the chance of mushroomed lifters to be pretty much nil. They are well hardened so would not be prone to mushrooming any way. The cam won't pull out with any lifter nearly in place. They have to be up about 3/10's of an inch or more to clear all the lobes. If you got it that far forward, however, perhaps the cam journals jut dropped in-between bearings and it is not lined up to slip into the next set of cam bearings.
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I disassembled my 225 a couple months ago. There was plenty of sludge but because this thing had been sitting since 82, things had kind of dried up. I wasn't sure what the future of these parts was going to be so I tried not to damage anything. I could not get the lifters to come out the top side so....I rotated the block in the engine stand so it was horizontal. I rotated the cam completely around so the lobes pushed the lifters as far up into their bores as possible. I probably pushed them up even higher, not sure. I was able to get the cam out with some careful finagling. I pushed each lifter through into the space vacated by the cam and caught them one by one. It is the built up varnish on the lifters that cause them to get stuck. They will not be mushroomed.
 
If you rebuild the engine, it will cost far more than just swapping in a good used one. Apparently, people give away good /6's for nothing or a couple hundred bucks but I must not be lucky. Maybe you could throw in a running engine to get back on the road and rebuild yours as time and money allows.
 
Thanks for the input. I've decided to keep it at the shop due to accessibility to tools, space, and equipment I wouldn't have at home. I think what we will likely do is what you said KosmicKuda, to put it on a stand and rotate it to make it easier to get the cam and lifers out. As for replacing it, I will be looking around. My dad, of course, knew this guy who /gave away/ a slant with 90k original miles not too long ago. >.< Oh well. I'll be looking for some decent, running slants but hoping I can fix my own.

Fortunately, Spring Break is coming but I'm allowed to go in with some friends and work on the car for an entire day. Going forward with the car won't happen until Tuesday of next week.
 
It is hard for me to tell from the pictures, but I would be concerned about the ware on the front of the block from the cam gear. It looks pretty deep. Might be better to find another engine for cheap (free), and rebuild that one. Look on this site, dot org, and craigs list for a "core" engine.
Just make sure the "core" engine is 1968 or newer, and before 1976 (forged crank), though 77-88 is still ok (cast crank). The crank in a 67 or older engine will not mate to your trans.
 
Dodge72 said:
My dad, of course, knew this guy who /gave away/ a slant with 90k original miles not too long ago.
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Well, my /6 engine with 60k original miles was in pretty sad shape in the bores; they had to be bored out to .040" oversize since the prior owner had run it of thousands of miles with a bad carb leak and the "oil" was as much gas as motor oil. So you never know with a used engine. I tend to be one to rebuild what you have for that very reason.

As Charrlie sez: the wear in the block behind the cam sprocket is the concern. I doubt you can put any thin hardened washer in there; it'll just cause more issues since the cam can float some. You could weld the groove up and regrind with the right techniques, or weld in a hardened shim and finish to the right thickness, but block replcement is the easiest.

I would use your present head if you rebuild; look at the www.slantsix.org articles for the head article.
 
Thanks for the articles.

If I were replace the block (currently looking right now), were the block and heads paired together like intake and exhaust manifolds were? If they were paired, would both the block deck and header have to be machined at a shop to fit correctly?
 
Here's a tip for you next time you work a motor. Spray "Gumout" around the lifters and let sit for a minute or 2, work lifters up & down till they come out. May take a couple shots of gumout till they pop but it works. Good Luck
 
Thanks for the tip! I actually haven't gotten those out yet, so if I have anymore difficulty I'll give out a try.
 
Update: Tomorrow we're pulling the engine out and onto a stand. Man, there are a lot of bolts! Gotta get some sticky notes and a little organizer to keep them all together. Hopefully tomorrow I can get some pictures up of the engine out and finally get some progress in.
 
Block and head are not paired, and manifolds are not paired either. (If I understand your meaning of 'paired'.) All those parts are interchangeable. The manifolds are held together with 3 bolts that need to be loosened/removed before re-installing the manifolds, and the inner one commonly will be eroded and will sometimes break and then the bolt hole in the exhaust manifold needs to be drilled and Heli-coiled.
 
Do I need to remove the manifolds when pulling the engine?
So I got everything unbolted....but the damn chains from the picker feel down a hole where a in ground car lift was being repaired. Looks like the engine pulling won't happen until tomorrow.
 
You may or may not remove the manifolds; your choice.

There are 2 holes in the top of the head near the center and near the manifold flange that are drilled/tapped in angled bosses and that take 3/8" coarse threaded bolts. Lift with these holes. Use grade 5 or grade 8 bolts in the holes.

There are threads in this subforum about pulling the engine that have pix showing this.
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=300385
 
Another update: Camshaft is here and engine is finally out! Thank you for the thread nm9stheham; helped us out to where to bolt it up. Now I've got a grocery list of things to be getting before getting down on a whole day's worth of work on Monday or Wednesday, should be fun. Still debating on whether or not to pull the head or not to check pistons and head wear, but that decision will be made later on.

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If you think there are lots of bolts on that, you should try working on new cars. There are more wires and fasteners in a new car's dash than in your whole car and that's the truth.
 
Got to work only a fraction of the time I thought I was going to get to. However, we managed to get the camshaft out easy and the lifters with a light tap. Yes, those lifters were heavily varnished; except for one, suspiciously from the same place that the new push rods were found too.

And this is where the fun keeps rolling; upon doing a leak-down test, we found that the lowest percentage of leaking past the pistons was 44% from #5. The worst, found in about 3-4 of the cylinders was around 76-80%. That's where we halted work, and where I need to make a decision. Either I can take this engine to a shop and they will completely rebuild, machine, and clean it perfect for about $1600 (with an attached 75,000 mile warranty), or go hunting for another slant for cheaper. The risks with that is obvious, where a problem could show up at anytime with a used engine.

Just some pics below of the wear in the block from the cam sprocket, lifters, and cam themselves. The new and old one should be pretty clear.

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EDIT: I should put this here before I forget. Upon removing the cam, the oil that collected on the front cam bearing was mixed with some silvery stuff...? I am guessing that it may be from the oil pump that we removed, after seeing some sort of silvery lube on the shaft. I didn't get a good picture of it, sorry.
 
That's a tough one but you can always take the engine completely apart and analyze what you have. Checking the bore sizes, bearing wear, etc. will give you a good read on the overall condition.
Some of this has to be based on what your goals are. If you just want a short term driver then just fix what truly needs fixing and don't go any further. If you want to keep the slanty running for another 20 years then maybe you do a complete rebuild. You can save money by hauling the junk to a machine shop for machining but do all the assembly yourself.
If you have a spare running motor, that can be your short term fix until your "real" motor is ready to go back in.
Good luck and keep posting.
 
I am still concerned about the front of the block. Hard to tell for sure from the picture, but I think the block is junk. Yes, it could probably be repaired, but most likely cheaper to get another block/engine.
 
Upon discussing with my dad and some others and taking a gander around craigslist, I think it may be more economically feasible to look for other running engines for sale, and put some money into making that one a better running engine for less than it would be to completely rebuild. Slant six, or possibly even a 318 is somewhat tempting (I know that the small block takes a little more effort to swap). Will this option keep me going for another 20 years? Probably not, but it will keep me going until I can gather the money to make my car into what I want it to be.
 
Charrlie_S said:
I am still concerned about the front of the block. Hard to tell for sure from the picture, but I think the block is junk. Yes, it could probably be repaired, but most likely cheaper to get another block/engine.
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After seeing the pic that's a good call Charrlie. If it was a rare Hemi block or something really valuable, you'd probably fix it.
 
Went in today just to chat with my teacher, but saw that the previous auto shop teacher was there. Talked to me about his 73 Charger he once had, taught me a few tips and tricks on my slant, and then told me that my engine will run again. I asked him about the wear on the block and told me that the wear was very even and while it was a little concerning, as long as the bolt is properly torqued, should be fine.

So today I lubed and installed the new camshaft and got down and dirty with a putty knife and solvent tank to get the engine all cleaned up. Really cleaned out the oil pan and actually found my old camshaft pin (not in the picture), the end of my oil dipstick, and a huge chunk of a distributor gear amongst 3 pounds of sludge. Glad that's all cleaned out.

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Well there are 2 things to consider with the block wear behind the cam sprocket:
1) The front cam bearing is set 3/16" behind the front surface of the block; this is to provide some oil flow space from the front bearing to the little circular oil feed to lube the back of the sprocket. This space is considerably reduced now so how well the cam sprocket will be lubed is a question.
2) The ONLY cam alignment mechanism for the position of the cam is the place where it is considerably worn. It will now ride too far back in the block. This will effect the lifter contact point on the cam, and the distributor gear mesh in the cam, and, perhps most importantly, the ol pump gear mesh with the cam. Any of these 3 misalignments can be a significant problem for you.

Have you measured the depth of this wear? It would be easy to measure from the block face to the back of the groove and would be good to know.
 
I'll measure the wear on the block when I get to working on my car again. Today I just went to the junkyard with some friends in hopes of finding a mini-starter and a dipstick, or even to just see some Mopars. Saw some 318's, and only one beat up bottom end of a slant out of a '64 Dart. Oh well! Up here there's plenty of yards, so we'll go again next week.
 
What about the leak down test? It sounds like you have some worn or broken rings.
 
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