Pulled the Mess that was my Timing Chain....

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Unfortunately, my teacher had just about no time after school, so all I could do was fill it up with coolant, oil, hook up my electrical, and sit inside and turn on the fuzzy AM radio while making revving noises. No testing the engine just yet, until Monday.

Another bitter road bump; initially my car went into the shop because of a leaky pan gasket. Switched it out, filled it all up, and that's when it died. Now, because we have had to lift the car and keep the tranny up with a floor jack, the tranny is once again, leaking all over the floor. I guess that block of wood under the jack wasn't good enough! Going to have to check that one it's all running pretty.

On a side note, I may have figured out why I couldn't get above 60 on the highway (you know, besides the other issues). Hooking up the throttle cable back on the carb, I saw that it was pretty long. My gas pedal had about 2-3 inches of play in it too, and was sitting real low. Turns out, pushing the pedal to the floor only opened the throttle by 2/3. Gonna have to fix that...

Never been more excited for a Monday before! Time to get this all wrapped up.
 
She's alive, finally alive!! ...but barley. Got everything bolted up, so excited to turn the key, lights were all popping up like they should be, and went to crank. 'Click' . That's all I got. I was worried that it was my new starter (I pulled a mini starter from a 95 Dakota) . Checked connections, found loose connections to the starter. Tightened those up, and spun the starter went. After a few tries (probably dry on fuel) , VAROOOM ! So, freaking, happy! It sounded great! Turned it off after a few seconds, realizing that the distributor bolt was not locked down and wiggled the dizzy everywhere. -sigh- back to timing the thing. Now, trying to start it up...starts up in less than a second, but ran super rough and couldn't get it to stay running. Carb spewed fuel everywhere. Even while throttle was not held down at all, it ran worse without being held all the way open. I'm figuring it's way flooded, but from what? Maybe float bowls?

Another issue. Upon fiddling with my lights to make sure my connections were good, I realized that my turn signals were erratic and staying on. All lights work, but (especially my right signal) it doesn't flash, just keeps itself on until I turn it off. Tried to check connections, everything is solid.


I'm almost there, I'm very much encouraged, but I need help in bringing it home: figuratively and literally!
 
She's alive, finally alive!! ...but barley. Got everything bolted up, so excited to turn the key, lights were all popping up like they should be, and went to crank. 'Click' . That's all I got. I was worried that it was my new starter (I pulled a mini starter from a 95 Dakota) . Checked connections, found loose connections to the starter. Tightened those up, and spun the starter went. After a few tries (probably dry on fuel) , VAROOOM ! So, freaking, happy! It sounded great! Turned it off after a few seconds, realizing that the distributor bolt was not locked down and wiggled the dizzy everywhere. -sigh- back to timing the thing. Now, trying to start it up...starts up in less than a second, but ran super rough and couldn't get it to stay running. Carb spewed fuel everywhere. Even while throttle was not held down at all, it ran worse without being held all the way open. I'm figuring it's way flooded, but from what? Maybe float bowls?

Another issue. Upon fiddling with my lights to make sure my connections were good, I realized that my turn signals were erratic and staying on. All lights work, but (especially my right signal) it doesn't flash, just keeps itself on until I turn it off. Tried to check connections, everything is solid.


I'm almost there, I'm very much encouraged, but I need help in bringing it home: figuratively and literally!

Inlet needle and seat in the carb has probably got dirt in it holding it open or the float is stuck.

Make sure the battery ground to the body is good for the light problem.
 
Give more info on the "fuel spewing everywhere".......where exactly? If the needle is really stuck hard open, it could be coming out of the fuel bowl vent on the upper front part of the carb. It would explain flooding, which your symptom description tends to indicate.
 
That's what I have been seeing through my searching of this is either the float or the needle and seat.

The fuel, both in steam/vapor form and just raw gas spurts out from the top of the carb, and the only way from it not completely dying is by holding the throttle all the way open. No popping or actual fire, but just the vapor and the raw fuel coming out from the top. No signs of leakage anywhere else on the carb.
 
Inside or outside the top? Just curious....yeah, the needle stuck open or has some dirt/debris in it probably nails the issue. Easy to remove and clean on the Holley; I am not familiar enough with the Carter BBS to know if that one is as easy to remove.
 
I had a 1bbl Holley and my engine would flood every time I ran it. It'd run great for a few seconds then sputter and die. Turns out the float was sticking
 
So I was looking for the needle on my carb, where it does not have the adjusting screw like I've seen on all other Holleys, but rather this nut/threat combo that hooks my fuel line to the carb (found a PDF of a manual for Holley that appeared to be just that). I'm pretty sure that was the needle and seat....I provided a pic of the two pieces. Came horizontally from the side of the float bowl housing. It looked pretty clean (maybe a speck or two of dirt), but I sprayed it out with carb cleaner and dried it all up with an air hose before putting them back on. Didn't get to turn the engine over, since an earlier (inexperienced) class "tried" to check my valves. Some were screwed around with too far, so I had to spend my time trying to fix those to .12 intake and .22 exhaust, cold. Did not change any that were alright, just those that were obviously too loose. I will check them again when the engine is running for more accurate checks. If I turn it over and it's still struggling, I'm going to pull the float to check it, most likely tomorrow.

Below is what I thought was the needle and seat, with the thread and bolt that attached to float bowl area and to my fuel line. (Sorry for bad picture, my phone was just about dead) :

11175026_1276406095755160_8268748710139693616_n.jpg
 
Yep; you got it. The other Holleys you refer to are more performance oriented carbs and that adjustable seat is actually the equivalent to a float adjustment. If this continues, you may have to disassemble the carb; the float could have gotten stuck in the down position.
 
Hooked the carb back up today to the lines and hoses and for more than just a second (more like 15) she revved and sounded good, but then began to stumble, choke up, and flood again. No spewing out raw gas again though...but it /was/ leaking out from the bottom of the float bowl. So, unplugging lines and taking off the float bowl, I saw my float was actually in great shape; wasn't sticking, and wasn't soaked in fuel at all. However, I saw that were was some sticky, gooey stuff on the bottom of the gasket where it was leaking, and this little tiny metal ball, almost like a BB pellet. Took the float off, and saw a brass/metallic cap of sorts that was also just laying on the bottom of the carb. Looked very bent out of shape. I've never taken apart a carb before and I'm looking at diagrams of 1920's to try and help me out, but I cannot figure out where those pieces go.

- Unscrewing the float bowl screws, this was was leaking the most:

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- Took off the float bowl, found this rolling around on the bottom of it. On the bottom, you can see the sticky stuff on the bottom. It's not the gasket, almost looked like gelled up gasoline.

11120544_1277295062332930_4892352520272728971_n.jpg


Pic of the float and inside the carb. Not a lot of varnish at all, and (to me) the float looks like to be in good shape. Moves freely, no goop or soaked at all.


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Pic of carb instead without the float. Why is that area from the diagonal point look like it was drilled or chewed? Looked at a diagram of a 1920 but did not have that diagonal point to it, so I'll have to look for another.


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Another looksie:


1796658_1277295168999586_5391060114576070486_n.jpg



Pic of the little brass/metallic cap of sorta that was just laying on the bottom of my carb (not in the float bowl). Looks bent out of shape.


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Aaaand with that, I'm off to find more information on the 1920 and to hopefully get a better diagram or something that shows where that small cap and ball goes to. I'm getting close, I can feel it! My poor car is begging to run again!
 
Good pics, very informative. Yeah, the metering body looks like it is very broken there. Not sure how that could have happened.... the check ball could be from in that chamber and would have been sealed by the brass welsh plug that probably broke out.

The spring is supposed to go under the float.

What are the 2 stamped 4 digit numbers just above the float chamber?

Looks like a later 1920 but I am not an expert there. The metering body looks different from my very early Dart. The most experts for these are mainly posting on www.slantsix.org. You're certainly going to need another metering block at least.
 
ID numbers are 1581 6364.

I will definitely put a post up in Slantsix about this and hopefully can get more info. Thanks so much for the help.
 
Keep the 6364 number handy; that is the Holley 'List' number and sometimes is preceded with an R, as in R6364. That is how all Holley's are ID'd. I found one reference to this being for a '72 Dodge truck.
 
I'll keep that number on a little slip of paper if it slips my mind, haha thanks!

I'm off to look for either a metering block or, if the price is right, another 1 bbl entirely and make a functioning carb out of it or the two put together. If anyone has a reasonably priced, working/rebuildable Holley, PM me.
 
Ended up getting a new carburetor, rebuilt but never used. Hooked it on, got all reconnected, went to start it and....SAME PROBLEM! Rough running, barely can keep it running (maybe it's a hair better now), misfiring or flooding. Shaking the entire car with how rough it runs. No backfire, and seems to want to start right up. I don't get it. Am I off a tooth in timing? I am trying to fire it off at TDC, and it really shouldn't run this horribly....
 
Well, welcome to the world of cars.....sorry to hear this.
Ignition:
- Check firing order on spark plug wires....!
- Pull the coil high voltage wire, set the end 1/4" from metal, and crank; see if it jumps that gap or a bit more with a good snappy, blue spark
- What coil and ballast do you have? Please post pix of ballast
- If the 4 terminal ballast, make sure the coil + hooks to the low resistance side
- Check voltage to the ballast on the blue wire while running and make sure it is 12v
- Are the plugs and wires new?
- Is the rotor hitting the underside of the distributor cap?

Valves/timing:
- Re-adjust valves; for cold valves, set a bit wider than than the hot settings. Are you sure you are doing this right? It is critical.
- Pull valve cover; figure out exactly where TDC is by probing the #1 cylinder to where it is at the very top; this has to be done very carefully
- Check 0 degree timing mark at the damper with #1 at TDC
- Look at the vavle son #1 and #6; one or the other should have the ex and in valves open equally if the timing chain is right; use a straight edge across the retainer to see this.

BTW.... rebuilt carbs can be bad from the box.....

Have you checked fuel flow and pressure while cranking?
 
I'll triple check those spark plug wires, although I'm just about positive that they are in the correct order.

I will be checking voltage on ballast resistor and coil for spark and for voltage. Coil brand, I have no idea, it's one of two (??) coils I found on the car when I first got it. Blue, nameless, no branding anywhere. Ballast resistor is a two-pronged type, looking just about as exactly as this:
shopping



Plugs and wires are new, as is the distributor.

I will check for rotor hitting the dizzy cap.


I have adjusted the valves to .012 for intake and .022 for exhaust, and planned to readjust them properly when the engine was running. I did them properly; I spun the engine over by hand, checked each valve pair (minding the two intake runners right next to each other), and by the little screw on top I adjusted them by quarter turns, checking with feeler gauges.


I was really afraid it might be the carburetor, but I had this exact same problem with my old carb too. The new carb only did a hair of difference, barely noticeable.

Fuel flow while cranking is definitely there, checked. Don't know exact fuel pressure, all I know is that it is a mechanical pump, but it is working.

Did pull a spark plug, merely curious on how it looked like. No, or faint fuel smell (although it was sitting for a few hours since it was cranked over), but the tip was completely covered in a thin layer of black carbon. Was able to wipe it off easily, perfect after that. Put it back in.

Back before I had these problems, my car was in the shop getting the tranny pan gasket replaced. It was running okay, cut out completely on sudden acceleration, but started up without a doubt. Shut it off, left it overnight, come back to find it's running like such, hardly starting. Obviously the timing chain and cam were apart of those problems, but after all that, it still runs like this? Starts right up, but still runs as if I'm trying to destroy it! It's baffling me!

If anything, I will be towing the car home tomorrow to really get to work on it much more over the weekend.
 
That ballast resistor is not the right one; the resistance it too high cold (2 ohms) and waaaaay to high hot (7 ohms). It is limiting a fair amount of your system's possible spark energy. Try to get a BWD19 which is close; a lot of the box stores have them. The best is an OEM Mopar part 2095501; cold resistance is 0.5-0.6 ohms. MSD sells a close equivalent through places like Summit. This may not solve the immediate issue but it needs to be corrected. Possibly, do an HEI conversion if you are not set on staying original.

I just suggest the steps to go through the ignition and timing as you have an issue that can have several causes in different systems. You're going to have to go through each one 'til the cause becomes clear; some tests to eliminate some of the sources of trouble will help you narrow in on the trouble area. The plug carbon could have come from the prior carb issue (though it would eventually burn off), or it may still be a carb issue.

On the carb:
- Did you look down into the carb while running to see if there is fuel dripping down in drops into the carb? Try to use a mirror to do so.
- Also, was the choke plate closed before starting? If so, the choke should open slightly when the car starts. This is the choke pull-off function and is done by the small vacuum dashpot at the top of the carb. If the choke plate does not open slightly at start up, then it will be overchoked and run rich and rough.
 
Okay. So, I got to spend the better portion of 4 hours on my car today with my dad, my teacher, and the former auto shop teacher who is much more familiar with the older mechanical engines than anything. All three, including me, are absolutely stumped. All cylinders are producing spark, and at the right time. Carburetor is producing gas, but not dripping fuel, it's a mist. We plugged up all possible sources of vacuum and that seemed to help a little bit, but still nothing majorly improving. We did a smoke test; there is minor leakage around the base of the carb where it hits the gasket (brand new gasket, a thick one from Fel-Pro). No leakage coming from manifolds or anywhere else. The former shop teacher says it sounds like either a crossfire, or a fuel issue. Timing marks all line up. There are, however, some interesting clues that may point to a larger issue(s).


First, the distributor: This is a little odd. It never spins out 180, it is always in the correct spot when we take off the cap, but no matter how much we advanced or retarded the timing with both the primary advance and the secondary (the little fine-tuning screw on the flip side of the distributor), it never backfired. Always either: Never fired in the first place, would try to start but never really truly start, or start up, run like 3 cylinders were misfiring, and then die and shaky death. But no pops or violent flames. And they played with at least 30 degrees. Another thing; the rotor IS hitting the top of the cap, as seen by the destruction of the carbon tip at the top of the cap. This was proven again by buying a new cap, and after only 6 or 7 starts, it was already halfway rubbed off by the rotor. The shaft, holding the rotor, also has about 1/8 of an inch of play vertically. You can move it around up and down, and this was a brand new distributor as of 3 months ago.


The carburetor: Is giving fuel. Sometimes it didn't. I forget when it didn't give fuel, but the problem here is definitely not because it's too lean. Fuel pressure is unknown, thinking of buying an in-line pressure gauge just to get a reading. I did not mess with the float upon getting it, only to raise it up to make sure it hit the needle and seat. I cleaned the needle and seat. Choke opens when starting. I tightened the idle screw by 2 1/2 turns, ended up not improving so I backed it back out the same turns. No spitting of fuel, no mist, no backfire. There is this weird little hole on the carb (maybe it was for another port?) by the throttle shaft.

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The ONLY time it ever fires up, without even a split second of thinking, and runs good, is when we have had the fuel line disconnected from the carb and hooked it back up after whatever period of time. Then, after about 10 or 15 seconds, it sputters, chokes on itself, and returns to either the crappy idle or just shakes and dies. Always ends up dying. With that crappy idle, if you hit on the gas (or merely tap it), it sputters, shakes, and suddenly dies. If you do that during that "golden moment" of the 15 seconds, it just surges, and then suddenly cuts out and dies.

Coil is getting surges from 9-11 amps when bumping the starter.


I am giving out as much as I possibly can. I hope this helps, because I am trying to put the tiny pieces together.


EDIT: Oh, and I grabbed a quick pic of my ballast resistor. Is this really the wrong one?

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IGNITION: Yes that is really, really, really the wrong ballast. Get a BWD19 as noted; it is pretty close to having the right designed-for resistance value, both hot and cold. I have made detailed measurements on several ballasts and yours is not right for a Mopar of this vintage. If you have a meter with a ohms function (resistance), measure this ballast cold; if it measures around 2 ohms like I think it will, then it is wrong. The proper cold resistance is 0.5 to 0.6 ohms, cold. A BWD19 only costs a few $$...put it in, and get that issue behind you; it may not solve the immediate issue but will cause poor cold idle at the least. (Don't be shy to speak up if you need help making this measurement if you want to check.)

BTW, the wrong ballast can cause the idle to go to crap after 10-30 seconds of idling, particularly right after cold start up.....does that sound like your issue?

On your spark testing, was it done like described, across a 1/4" gap? Testing by just putting the spark plug on the ends of the wires and seeing if the spark jumps that small gap is not a good test at all. The compressed fuel/air mixture takes a LOT more spark voltage to jump that .035" gap than it does to jump it in open air. That is why you have to test spark across a 1/4" gap in open air: so that it will be know to be adequate inside the cylinder under actual firing conditions. (I emphasize this since you have not described how you tested spark, and if not done right, you still don't know if you have good spark.)

BTW, I think you mean 9-11 VOLTS on the coil when bumping the starter? That sounds good and means that the ballast bypass function of the ignition switch is right.

Can you post a pix of the inside of the damaged distributor cap? I would encourage you to post this info on your www.slantsix.org thread; the guys there know the rotors/cap issues inside and out.

COMPRESSION: When you speak of the distributor always stopping in the same spot, that is odd; it should stop randomly when any cylinder is starting the compression stroke. (It might favor some cylinders but one just one all the time is abnormal.) It implies that just one cylinder is sealing up well. When you set the valve lash, are you sure the cylinder being adjusted is not anywhere near TDC on the overlap? I don't want to insult you; it is just one explanation of why the engine would always stop with the rotor as just one spot. Have you turned the engine over by hand and found resistance every 1/3 turn of the crank? Have you run a compression test? That would answer this issue and settle it; A COMPRESSION TEST AT THIS POINT IS NEEDED, IMO.

Another reason for poor sealing in these engines is sticking valves. I can't recall if you had the head reworked or not. If not, then valves sticking will prevent good cylinder sealing (and perhaps bad lash adjustments in some circumstances).

CARB/FUEL:
The occasional hole in the carb base was a mystery to me, and I thought it was just someone's hacking, but it was explained on a thread (by SlantSix Dan, I think) that sometimes these are drilled to get the idle or transitions mixture right (as I recall). It seems to be needed on just specific individual carbs.

The carb mist sounds good; the slight vacuum leak at the carb base is of concern. Have you sprayed something like WD40 or carb cleaner around the carb base while idling to see if that changes things? Have you put a vacuum gauge on the intake manifold under the throttle (true manifold vacuum) to see what you have? A vacuum test may not be useful with such a bad idle, so is probably only meaningful in those short spurts when you get it run well.

Disconnecting the fuel line removes the residual pressure that should stay in the fuel line for quite a while. (Residual pressure shows that the fuel pump's outlet check valve is good.) Why that helps? I can only guess at this point.. perhaps the float setting is high and this line disconnection allows the fuel level in the bowl to drop to where the carb runs right until the fuel pumps pushes more fuel and overfills the bowl again. OR the new needle and seat is crap. When you disconnect the line does any fuel flow back out of the carb inlet when you pull the line away? (That is a long shot check....)

Bad fuel? Try pulling fuel from a container rather than the tank. But, if the fuel was bad, it would not likely ever run right in any circumstance, not even when you have disconnected the fuel line for a while. So bad fuel does not seem likely at this point.

BTW, did you ever answer SlantSixDan's query as to if this was a '72 California car? He would know how that effects things better than anyone I know.
 
On the ballast resistor: Okay, I will go grab a new one then. The only reason I was hesitant is because I was told otherwise. Well, it does cut out after around 15 seconds, but that is when I cut the fuel line. I do know how to perform am ohms test, I've got the proper meter for it. Never got to it because nobody thought much of it.

Yes, I meant volts, whoops.

I did not test across a 1/4" gap for the spark plugs, merely testing that they were firing in a pulsating order by a timing light that checks for electrical voltage. I will go and test them by the gap tomorrow.

No, I didn't mean that the distributor lands in one spot every time; I missed the important detail that we brought it up to TDC and checked that the right cylinder (either #1 or #6) was in the compression stroke, and then checked if the distrubutor rotor was in the right place. It was. No hesitation or slop when we turned over the engine by hand. Sorry about that.

Carburetor: Okay, that makes a little more sense. If there is any explanation, then at least it's not something completely random. We did try to plug it up if it helped, but didn't do any noticeable difference. Did not expect for such a drastic improvement anyways.

We didn't get to spray any cleaner like that on the carb base because we couldn't get it to run long enough to test that just yet. No vacuum test either. I will suggest that and should get one, just to rule out something else.

When I disconnected the needle and seat, no fuel leaked out. The float is a possibility, or at least one of the possibilities. What is the appropriate height for the float? I saw it once posted, but I can't find it again.

Can fuel go bad after 2 months of sitting? It's 10% ethanol.


I posted it now that I don't think it is. The original owner lived here, and the car was made in the Windsor plant in Canada (if that means anything).


EDIT: I forgot to post about the distributor cap. I will post a picture tomorrow.
 
Fuel will start to go bad pretty quickly but 2 months would not do this, in my experience. Besides, it would not ever run for any period of time with bad gas, but it does run Ok for you in the right circumstances.

OK, on the distributor position; understood. Says your new timing chain is not falling off the sprockets!

When you are testing again, I would suggest doing the electrical items first to get that settled to some degree without moving on to other things. Then do the compression tests to see if there are any issues there. Then go over the carb operatoin, float setting, etc., and leaks. A vaccum test is probably not possible or meaningful with it running so poorly. It helps to do things in a group to rule out issues with a whole system or aspect of operation.

Also, as suggested, look at the choke butterfly to see if it closes with one pump of the throttle when cold and not running, and then opens a bit more than 1/8"' after starting to make sure the unloader is working right. If the choke stays firmly closed after the engine starts, that is a problem for your situation; it will make the mixture overly rich and choke off too much air to the engine. You can always stick you finger or a popsicle stick down the carb throat and open the choke and see if that helps cure an overly rich choke situation.

Sorry, I am not giving things in a more orderly fashion; my brain is on small blocks nowadays. You'l get there... sent ya a PM.
 
Thank for you the PM, I really appreciate the offer and may hit you up on that later. But.....


IT'S RUNNING!


I knew it was going to be something cheap and stupid, and it was; the condenser on my distributor went bad. A $10 part from the parts store down the street, hook it up, and turned the key. Immediately it responded with all cylinders firing, revving up strong and such sweet music to my ears! We broke in the camshaft for a good 15-20 minutes, with no ill sounds (save for the power steering fluid, which was not filled back up and was boiling. In the process of flushing it as I let the engine cool down.) I adjusted the valves slightly just to make them all uniform and while it was hot just to triple check. Now I'm changing out the oil, checking out timing, and getting ready to DRIVE home!!
 
Perhaps I spoke to soon. It definitely runs, but idling is rough and off not warmed up, will die immediately. Playing with the distributor now, but disputed the PCV is stuck open, since when is plugging it off will even out. It acts like it goes down to die, but then picks itself back in idle speed, then tries to stop down again, ect.

UPDATE: As we hooked the hot air intake to the air cleaner that we reattached back to the carb, the idle did rise and stabilize itself a noticeable difference. However, with the timing light we saw that it was only a mostly even idle at around 900-1100 RPMS and with 15-20* BTDC, way too high. As we tried to lower the RPMS to about 850 and move the timing forward, it began to get choppier and choppier, struggling to idle correctly. We managed to get it to hover at a little above 900 at 8* BTDC (without vacuum advance), but it sounds kinda rough. We test drove it after finding no leaks, and man, did she die a lot when you let off the gas. Struggled up the onramp (not a very steep climb), but easily got up to speed to 65 to cruise. Much, much more responsive and lively, no hesitation in power. You had to put it in neutral and park even slowing down towards a stop and hitting the gas to keep it from dying. After getting it back to the shop, we found that the PCV valve wasn't doing its job. Quick stop at the parts store to get a new PCV valve and that BWD19 resistor. Two minutes to put them both on, and turn on the car. Higher idle, a much healthier idle, and didn't feel the need to bog down. Going through the gears; neutral was good, reverse, idle drop, but sounded good, drive, sounded good (it was on each gear for about 5 seconds), then back into drive. Sounded okay, dropped in idle like it should, but after 10 seconds, just died, as if someone turned the key off.

My teacher is concerned that we were a tooth off on the timing chain, but with these minor improvement with all of this, could it really be the timing chain? We made leaps and bounds today, but it's time to get this problem solved now while we have momentum.
 
Just a quick check, are you setting the timing with the vacuum line to the distributor un-hooked and plugged?
 
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