Shocks: looking for Blistein quality at KYB price.

[MDchanic]

Like I said, I’ve run “basic **** box” Monroe’s and I’ve run KYB’s. I’d run Monroe’s every time given the choice between the two, based on their actual performance on the cars I’ve run them on. Money spent on KYB’s is wasted money.

Interesting point of view.

When I last used KYBs commonly, it was the 1980s-'90s and they were the "new thing."
I replaced "normal" (often Sears-Roebuck), worn shocks with KYBs on at least a Chevelle and a Cutlass, possibly on a '68 Delta, and maybe a '70 Monte. I also rode in at least three vans (GM and Dodge) that had swapped in KYBs just after they were purchased new, and the KYBs seemed better than what was there before in all cases.
But, what am I comparing them to, right...?

That being said, I have gained a bit of polish and discernment with the passing of years, and I no longer drive by alternately pressing the pedals to the floor, and at the time, I probably wouldn't have noticed much other than "Feels Tighter."

If you’re going to run radial tires, running the original size torsion bars is a mistake. The traction you’ll get from even the typical all season white letter radials is substantially better than from the factory bias ply’s, and better traction means more force being transmitted into the suspension. Which takes more wheel rate to manage.

Okay. I would be interested in people's personal experiences with this.
I'm the first to agree that the '64 Dart, like every 1964 car that isn't a Porsche or a Ferrari, is sprung very softly.
But while I do want to tighten up the car's suspension just a bit (and I do understand that this is not a modern car – I have an E36 and an E46 BMW and have had 911s), I am not looking to turn this into a race car, or make it do improbable things, or drive it like I stole it (the slant-six makes it a poor getaway car, and no, I'm not going to turbocharge it).
I just want to be able to drive around the twisty roads where I live without feeling like I'm hurling it, and take a drive on the NYS Thruway without my knuckles getting white and without being rear-ended.

And I am trying, strange as that may sound on a board full of hot-rodders, to keep it as original as possible.

As I say, if I want to zip around, I can drive my 330, and I know I will never get a '64 Dart to compete with that.
And if I want to modify the Bejeeeezus out of something, I can start restoring the SS I've had since 1980, which was a drag car before I bought it.

I'm just trying to make what is now a very old car, in very original condition, as pleasant to drive as possible with the minimum number of changes from stock.
I'm happy to spend money for significant improvements (which Bilsteins have been in every car I have installed them in), but I'm not looking to "tweak" it endlessly to maximize every aspect of performance.
And I really don't want to go changing torsion bars. And then adding a leaf to the rear springs. And then adding disc brakes. And then...

Hell, it's still got a bench seat and no cupholders or A/C, so how comfortable will I ever really make it, right?

So, to be clear, if any of the tiny group that's reading this thinks that the Bilsteins will suck, or otherwise not be worth the $350 price differential on a Dart with an otherwise stock suspension, please let me know. I had planned to use them, couldn't find them, bought KYBs instead as a "next-best" option, and now, thanks to this thread and to Beams, I know I can get Bilsteins as I had originally intended.
So, if my original idea of using Bilsteins seems dumb to you, please tell me, and I'l save my money. If they'll be good, but (as always) "could be better if only I ...," that's okay, I'm looking for "good," and may do "better" somewhere down the line.

Also, and this may clarify things a bit, I want to make sure that my wife is comfortable driving it. She doesn't have a problem driving older cars (as a kid she drove Javelin, for chrissakes), but I don't want her to feel that the car is hard to drive, or requires too many "weird" considerations (I'm a "When it does that, kick it here, and never use the cigarette lighter while making a left turn" kind of guy, but I find that never seems to go over well with the ladies).

Radials also need different alignment specs, so don’t run the factory specs, use the SKOSH chart.

I know well that alignment specs are different for radials (and should generally be tweaked even for bias tires).
I was not aware of the SKOSH Chart, though, so thank you for that.
(Yes, Google IS my friend).

Thanks for all of your excellent advice, and the time you've spent typing it!

– Eric

 

[michiganpat]

just rebuilt my suspension. I upgraded from .85 bars to .92, and 33 year old 85 lb/in 5leaf springs to some used 340 spec 130 lb/in 6 leaf. I like the ride, the biggest improvement I made however was installing the hellwig front sway bar where there was none. many people here said it would still be undersprung, but frankly, I don't think I'd really want it much stiffer.

I am running KYB's, got them on sale from rockauto. they seem to match well with my combo.

 

[MDchanic]

Thanks!

 

[michiganpat]

just rebuilt my suspension. I upgraded from .85 bars to .92, and 33 year old 85 lb/in 5leaf springs to some used 340 spec 130 lb/in 6 leaf. I like the ride, the biggest improvement I made however was installing the hellwig front sway bar where there was none. many people here said it would still be undersprung, but frankly, I don't think I'd really want it much stiffer.

I am running KYB's, got them on sale from rockauto. they seem to match well with my combo.

note, I am also still running 14" rims for now, and don't autocross/canyon carve/race it, I just drive it like a normal car. if I had 17's and was more aggressive driving it (really, how aggressive can you get with a 1bbl slant 6?), I would likely have different opinions

 

[mopowers]

QA1 standard shocks

Where ya finding those for less than $600 a set?

 

[MDchanic]

... I am also still running 14" rims for now, and don't autocross/canyon carve/race it, I just drive it like a normal car. if I had 17's and was more aggressive driving it (really, how aggressive can you get with a 1bbl slant 6?), I would likely have different opinions

"Still" running 14s? I went out of my way to get 14s because nobody made whitewalls for the 13s.
And they're 70s, which were the "cool, wide tire" back in the '70s, so that's as radical as I'm getting.

Your post described my driving, as well. I just want to drive it like a normal car, but I want it to feel like it's planning to stay on the road when I do, not like I'm in the car chase from The French Connection.

– Eric

 

[-Boosted-]

You spelt "used" wrong.... lol

Honestly I don't think there is a Bilstein quality shock at a KYB price available.

 

[junkyardhero]

i had to block quote you down because you covered so much ground here. but let me start off by saying that some of what you're saying is counter intuitive to what you're thinking or what end goals you're trying to achieve.

I'm the first to agree that the '64 Dart, like every 1964 car that isn't a Porsche or a Ferrari, is sprung very softly.
But while I do want to tighten up the car's suspension just a bit (and I do understand that this is not a modern car – I have an E36 and an E46 BMW and have had 911s), I am not looking to turn this into a race car, or make it do improbable things, or drive it like I stole it (the slant-six makes it a poor getaway car, and no, I'm not going to turbocharge it).
I just want to be able to drive around the twisty roads where I live without feeling like I'm hurling it, and take a drive on the NYS Thruway without my knuckles getting white and without being rear-ended.

the stock slant six bars were the tiniest bars offered on factory show room cars, with only a smaller "drag race" bar offered by the parts department. upgrading these is absolutely essential. how big you want to go hinges on a few things: ride quality, type of shock you are willing to pay for, how much you want to pay for bars, end result.

.87 V8 bars are the absolute minimum i would run with a 6, with factory big block bars being next at .89 and if you can find them .920 bars being my 1st choice. all of these can be run with off the shelf shocks. from there .990+ bars really require a better shock such as the bilstein or QA1, etx.

specifically because you're trying kinda sorta retain originality, not have a buck board ride, do this on a budget, and you're not running big sticky tires, and you have a front sway bar, i'd err toward the smaller side of bars with .920's where you can get away with stock shocks if you want, or buy bilstein's and really compliment them. though i understand that the 1.03's are more available and afforable.

And I am trying, strange as that may sound on a board full of hot-rodders, to keep it as original as possible.

this is perfectly acceptable direction to take. i build a lot of cars like this. mildly updated suspension, bone stock appearance. better brakes, better spring rates, better bushings, better shocks, sway bars, slightly bigger tires. all the small upgrades add up to a nice riding and handling package. it's not gonna smoke an autocross circuit, but it'll be comfortable to drive and safe in modern traffic.

As I say, if I want to zip around, I can drive my 330, and I know I will never get a '64 Dart to compete with that.

au contraire pierre... you can indeed make an old *** mopar handle like a E46. here's the hotchkis taxi besting a bmw in a tire rack shoot out-- with the same driver laying down laps a full second faster than the ringer test car.



somewhere, footage exists of me in my 64 dart out hustling some E46's at buttonwillow on a track day. so, yes, it can be done. i have no doubt that the duster built by @72bluNblu would absolutely embarrass all but the top tier of modern performance handling cars, and that's all "old school" t-bar suspension.

And I really don't want to go changing torsion bars. And then adding a leaf to the rear springs. And then adding disc brakes. And then...

you've mentioned that you have a 911 (waves hi! i have an 80) and the E46 (which i owned one as well) so you know what a performance car handles like and how it rides. with the dart because of where you're starting at, you can tailor it to where you want to be-- wanna go point and shoot 911 or taut and responsive like the 330? easy to achieve.

but like those cars it's about system and about balance. big bars and a sway bar with weak *** saggy rear springs will just make it push. big burly rear springs and a rear bar will make it tail happy.

i wouldn't screw around trying to "add a leaf" or anything. i'd just buy springs that have the rate that compliments the front bars.

so, either you build out with the goal in mind from your designed system, or you make your decisions to "get there" with maybe doing the front first and then the rear as money provides. but just throwing parts because "that's what everybody is running" is a great way to wind up with something that rides like **** and handles like two wet cats in a burlap sack.

So, to be clear, if any of the tiny group that's reading this thinks that the Bilsteins will suck, or otherwise not be worth the $350 price differential on a Dart with an otherwise stock suspension, please let me know. I had planned to use them, couldn't find them, bought KYBs instead as a "next-best" option, and now, thanks to this thread and to Beams, I know I can get Bilsteins as I had originally intended.
So, if my original idea of using Bilsteins seems dumb to you, please tell me, and I'l save my money. If they'll be good, but (as always) "could be better if only I ...," that's okay, I'm looking for "good," and may do "better" somewhere down the line.

the bilsteins will not suck. they are 100% worth the money. even if you're running small bars, the difference in ride is noticeable and, if in the future you want to upgrade you can do so confidently without having to upgrade again.

remember, if you're building on a budget everything is a compromise. more money is usually good money, and good money usually only spends once-- the whole buy once, cry once philosophy.

 

[junkyardhero]

"Still" running 14s? I went out of my way to get 14s because nobody made whitewalls for the 13s.
And they're 70s, which were the "cool, wide tire" back in the '70s, so that's as radical as I'm getting.

*blinks slowly*

i rescind my previous statement and issue the following corrected statement:

.870 (or .890 bars), moog problem solver uppers, factory joints and rubber all around (including struts), poly on the sway bar, good monroe/gabriels from the parts house. stock V8 springs out back-- not HD or +1 or anything-- stock V8, rubber front eyes with poly shackle bushings. subframe connectors. align per the skosh chart.

done. within budget, no exotic parts, no muss, no fuss, nice easy driving car that rides well and is responsive.

 

[MDchanic]

First, thank you for the thoughtful response.

.87 V8 bars are the absolute minimum i would run with a 6, with factory big block bars being next at .89 and if you can find them .920 bars being my 1st choice. all of these can be run with off the shelf shocks. from there .990+ bars really require a better shock such as the bilstein or QA1, etx.

specifically because you're trying kinda sorta retain originality, not have a buck board ride, do this on a budget, and you're not running big sticky tires, and you have a front sway bar, i'd err toward the smaller side of bars with .920's where you can get away with stock shocks if you want, or buy bilstein's and really compliment them. though i understand that the 1.03's are more available and afforable.

Excellent practical information. Thank you.

au contraire pierre... you can indeed make an old *** mopar handle like a E46. here's the hotchkis taxi besting a bmw in a tire rack shoot out-- with the same driver laying down laps a full second faster than the ringer test car.



somewhere, footage exists of me in my 64 dart out hustling some E46's at buttonwillow on a track day. so, yes, it can be done. i have no doubt that the duster built by @72bluNblu would absolutely embarrass all but the top tier of modern performance handling cars, and that's all "old school" t-bar suspension.

Okay. I've gotta watch that video (no time this second).

I find this surprising, but not at all unbelievable.

Of course, that would be a fairly modified A-Body vs a fairly stock E46, no?
Even so, I'm still impressed.

you've mentioned that you have a 911 (waves hi! i have an 80)...

Well, had. 1970 911E Targa. Actually had two of them, and one motor, which I built myself.
Dumbest mistake I made was to sell it, figuring "I'll just buy another."

... and the E46 (which i owned one as well) so you know what a performance car handles like and how it rides. with the dart because of where you're starting at, you can tailor it to where you want to be-- wanna go point and shoot 911 or taut and responsive like the 330? easy to achieve.

Exactly. And this is not meant to be that.

but like those cars it's about system and about balance. big bars and a sway bar with weak *** saggy rear springs will just make it push. big burly rear springs and a rear bar will make it tail happy.

i wouldn't screw around trying to "add a leaf" or anything. i'd just buy springs that have the rate that compliments the front bars.

so, either you build out with the goal in mind from your designed system, or you make your decisions to "get there" with maybe doing the front first and then the rear as money provides. but just throwing parts because "that's what everybody is running" is a great way to wind up with something that rides like **** and handles like two wet cats in a burlap sack.

That's generally the way I think of things, too.

the bilsteins will not suck. they are 100% worth the money. even if you're running small bars, the difference in ride is noticeable and, if in the future you want to upgrade you can do so confidently without having to upgrade again.

This is the piece of information I need right now.

Parts is parts. I can always change torsion bars and springs down the line.
I know I've had good results with Bilsteins in other cars. Since being advised in this thread that I can get Bilseins for this car, I just wanted to be sure that there wasn't some tricky reason why I shouldn't.

The consensus seems to be that they're worthwhile, as expected.

Thanks again!

– Eric

 

[MDchanic]

i rescind my previous statement and issue the following corrected statement:

.870 (or .890 bars), moog problem solver uppers, factory joints and rubber all around (including struts), poly on the sway bar, good monroe/gabriels from the parts house. stock V8 springs out back-- not HD or +1 or anything-- stock V8, rubber front eyes with poly shackle bushings. subframe connectors. align per the skosh chart.

Ha. So you're not confident that the Bilsteins would be helpful in a darned original configuration.

Fair enough.

Hey, this is a granny car. It's got a 1bbl slant-six with an all-original exhaust system with a factory muffler and a 1-1/2" tailpipe.
It is completely original and low mileage.

I'm not messing with it too much. This is just a little museum piece I can take out a cruise around in from time to time.

I like Bilsteins. I've used them for years. I'd like to put them on this car, as it has factory original shocks, but I just wanted to check others' experiences.

Thank you, though.

– Eric

 

[junkyardhero]

Of course, that would be a fairly modified A-Body vs a fairly stock E46, no?
Even so, I'm still impressed.

not really. 64 dart, subframes with torque boxes, 8.25 with MP circle track springs, i ran between .990~1.14 bars and different configurations of sway bars from solid and hollow 7/8" to 1-1/4" up front to 1/2"~7/8" out back-- both adjustable and non adjustable. boxed control arms, stock uppers with offset bushings, poly on standard strut rods and solid sleeve tie rods. 16:1 manual box. wheels varied from 15" to 17". bilstein or QA1 adjustable shocks.
so there really wasn't anything high dollar in the set up, it was just built as a system and tuned. only the tuned M3's were running away from me, but even then i was knocking on their back door. and these were cars that were trailered to the event. i drove, 120 miles there, raced and drove back. on the same tires.

Well, had. 1970 911E Targa. Actually had two of them, and one motor, which I built myself.
Dumbest mistake I made was to sell it, figuring "I'll just buy another."

oof. that's a tough pill to swallow. we all have those "i'll just get another"... be it cars or women. ;)

 

[junkyardhero]

Ha. So you're not confident that the Bilsteins would be helpful in a darned original configuration.

Fair enough.

Hey, this is a granny car. It's got a 1bbl slant-six with an all-original exhaust system with a factory muffler and a 1-1/2" tailpipe.
It is completely original and low mileage.

I'm not messing with it too much. This is just a little museum piece I can take out a cruise around in from time to time.

I like Bilsteins. I've used them for years. I'd like to put them on this car, as it has factory original shocks, but I just wanted to check others' experiences.

Thank you, though.

– Eric

they'd be a great riding shock, but if the difference is between +300 on shocks or new rear springs, on a basically stock set up, i'm going springs.

for that type of set up you won't need the high end shocks, but they'd sure be nice. and if you do upgrade, you won't have to buy new ones.

the absolute best thing you can do is increase the spring rate*, how much you increase that rate is dependent on how much you want to spend on shocks and what your desired outcome is for ride quality and end use.

*and tire size/grip, but you're locked in there

 

[MDchanic]

. we all have those "i'll just get another"... be it cars or women. ;)

Don’t get me started on women…

 

[Kern Dog]

You haven't started on women yet? How old are you?
I suggest that you try them. They can be a LOT of fun.

 

[RustyRatRod]

You haven't started on women yet? How old are you?
I suggest that you try them. They can be a LOT of fun.

View attachment 1716260946

They can also divorce you and take half your stuff.

 

[rumblefish360]

Where ya finding those for less than $600 a set?

Summit but you can do better if you poke around

 

[MDchanic]

They can also divorce you and take half your stuff.

Or worse, they can like horses, stay with you, and take more than half.

Ask me how I know.

 

[mopowers]

Summit but you can do better if you poke around

Their non-adjustable shocks are over $600 a set.

 

[rumblefish360]

Their non-adjustable shocks are over $600 a set.

OK, whatever! I found them under that price. If $604 - $624 or whatever you found is breaking your bank, ignore my posts.

 

[mopowers]

OK, whatever! I found them under that price. If $604 - $624 or whatever you found is breaking your bank, ignore my posts.

Don't get you're panties in such a bunch. I thought you may have known of a new line of QA1 shocks or something. I had their double adjustable on my old Duster. They worked well.

 

[rumblefish360]

Don't get you're panties in such a bunch. I thought you may have known of a new line of QA1 shocks or something. I had their double adjustable on my old Duster. They worked well.

View attachment 1716261007

Nothings in a bunch. But your reply is a tiring one and further replies just make me thing your a female that just wants to start **** by keeping the gum’s flapping.

So far, you seem to want and like to stir the pot. Is there a third reply? More talking crap? Complaining? Hair splitting? An “I told you” so in there? WTF is next?

 

[Kern Dog]

No, he just makes sense and some people are too dense to see it.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Well, here's my 2 cents on shocks. And I don't give a crap what anybody thinks of it, either. I ain't spendin 600 bucks on any kinda shock for what I'm doing. Never have and never will. It's my opinion that most guys who do have cars that they will never, ever use to their potential 100% with street driving. Road racing or some kinda autocross, then yeah, get the best you can buy, but for the street? I find some of yall down right hard headed when it comes to recommendations for shocks. It's like no matter "what" the person's doing, the lowest "budget" shock some of yall recommend is Bilstein. Yeah, ok. It's almost repugnant what some of yall recommend for shocks to people who will spend 100% of their time on the street. A good, quality heavy duty hydraulic shock, with sway bars front and rear and even stock size sway bars (God forbid I said THAT) with fresh torsion bars and springs of your choice will handle far better than most people can ever imagine on the street. Think about it. WHERE IN THE WORLD are you going to be able to LEGALLY drive on the STREET to take advantage of all those canyon carver goodies? That is, without seein red and blue lights? Besides, maybe 90% or more of a car's handling prowess is the connection between the seat and the steering wheel.

 

[MidnightSwinger]

It's my opinion that most guys who do have cars that they will never, ever use to their potential 100% with street driving…. Besides, maybe 90% or more of a car's handling prowess is the connection between the seat and the steering wheel.

Bingo and bango Rob, bunch of Sunday drivers with suspension they will never use(me included).