Slant 6 Turbo 68Dart Project

[Serj22]

Yeah It'll definitly be visible now. I just finished doing the black on the grill. I decided on a design, got out my oil based semi gloss black and a nice lettering brush and fine line brush and went to town. It took me about 3 hours to do it all. I went with a "GTS" kind of style, but left more silver in it. I wanted more of a silver field to be left because I liked it.

So here's what I got:

 

[Bill Dedman]

Yeah It'll definitly be visible now. It took me about 3 hours to do it all. I went with a "GTS" kind of style, but left more silver in it. I wanted more of a silver field to be left because I liked it.

CLASSY!!! That was time well-spent!!! I really like it!!!:blob:

 

[Serj22]

I hope everything will look right together when I get it all put in. Well, since I didn't have anything else to do, and the kids took a nap, so there was nowhere to play for a few hours, I went outside and repainted the whole radiator support frame, and bumper supports semi gloss black. I know the original was a satin or flat or something but this should be just fine I think. It's just so if you look through the grill you don't see anything ugly.

Once It's dry I'm rewrapping all the wiring and getting everything tucked into the wire clips nice and clean.

I also took about 3 C-clamps the top lip of the bumper to bend it back up. I'm not sure what happened in the past with this car, but this spot always bugged the crap out of me.

See directly under the passenger side parking light where the bumper is bent down from the grill? That's what I just bent back level with the rest of the bumper. No one else knew it was there either - but I did.

Now it's all nice and touched up, everything that was black is now repainted.

The new parts should be here tomorrow and I can put everything back together.

 

[Serj22]

Well, got an email from UPS, apparently it all gets here on Wednesday. Well... more waiting...

BUT! I did talk to the landlord for my shop about that slant six he has, and he is willing to sell it. $200 for the engine and whatever transmission is bolted to it.

I felt like that is a fair price. He said he pulled it out likely 30 years ago from something, which is probably believable knowing him. I don't know if I'm going to bother trying to oil it down the rings and start it or if I'm just going to start dissasembling it.

Is it worth running if I'm just going to take it apart? Or no?

I also figure I can offset the cost of the motor by selling the power steering equipment, lean burn stuff, carburetor, manifold, and everything else I'm not going to use, and my plan is to drop my solid lifter head on top of it, and then likely sell the hydraulic head to someone who needs one.

 

[RustyPlymouth]

if you are going to tear it down dont worry about running it unless you just wanna hear it run. if it has lean burn then there is a good chance it is a hydraulic motor too.

 

[Bill Dedman]

if you are going to tear it down dont worry about running it unless you just wanna hear it run. if it has lean burn then there is a good chance it is a hydraulic motor too.

What he said...

 

[Serj22]

I'm not sure if it's lean burn, but it has this huge electrical box of some kind of top of it "combustion Computer", so I'm assuming that's what it's for:

There's a lot of stuff bolted to it.

 

[CichliDart]

Does the Distributor have two separate connectors? One on each side?

If so it probably is.

Mike

I'm not sure if it's lean burn, but it has this huge electrical box of some kind of top of it "combustion Computer", so I'm assuming that's what it's for:

There's a lot of stuff bolted to it.

 

[Serj22]

All right. Today was a good day. I got two huge packages and I went to town.


All the stuff I ordered from my sponsor, Mishimoto arrived. IT feels nice to get some quality stuff in to this build instead of ebay junk.

They don't do any brown cardboard box junk, so that you can feel like your getting cool stuff right from the getgo. It's not boring.

So anyway, since this stuff is not cheap, I'll go ahead and show what you get for your money here.

First thing I opened up was the coolant overflow canister, P.N. MMRT-CA.

Their stuff is very well packaged. It came with a mounting bracket, all the hardware you need, and a short length of tube to hook it to the radiator. You just find somewhere that the can fits and install. I put mine next to the outlet side of the intercooler tubing I have, and had to bend the bracket 90* to mount it to the top of the radiator frame - totally easy process.

The canister itself is super nice with an easy to remove unscrewable lid, and nice welds on the inlet tube at the base, and the aluminum is a nice polished finish with "Mishimoto" laser engraved into the top. They also sell a red and black one, but I opted for the aluminum.

Next up was the intercooler, their Z-line model, which is the smallest one they sell in their universal options, and this one comes in either black, or aluminum.

The intercooler dropped right in to the same spot the old one was, and wound up being the same length. This is a bar and plate style intercooler with nice cast aluminum end tanks, and good welds. The old one was thin pieces of aluminum welded together everywhere to make the shape. Here's the inside of the intercooler.

It's a way prettier, and nicer made intercooler. But the other one was $60 off ebay... so it did its job for a bit.

Also a good thing to note, is you can drop the intercooler out of the car and run over it and they'll likely allow you to return it and get a new one. Each one is marked and has a lifetime warranty and from everything I've read - they mean lifetime.

Once I put the grill in, the intercooler sits pretty nice in the space I intended. It's about 1" lower than I wanted, but I can cut more of the radiator frame upwards later. For now, it's in. I also used their silicone tubing and T-clamps to install. The T-clamps worked great, held on tight, and do not strip threads like the cheap ones, so I'm happy with that. It was way easier to assemble this time around with good clamps.

Now I just have to wait for my next paycheck, I'll be getting a couple more parts from them, and that other slant six and start pulling it apart.

 

[CichliDart]

Wow~!

Lookin good Dave!

All right. Today was a good day. I got two huge packages and I went to town.


All the stuff I ordered from my sponsor, Mishimoto arrived. IT feels nice to get some quality stuff in to this build instead of ebay junk.

They don't do any brown cardboard box junk, so that you can feel like your getting cool stuff right from the getgo. It's not boring.

So anyway, since this stuff is not cheap, I'll go ahead and show what you get for your money here.

First thing I opened up was the coolant overflow canister, P.N. MMRT-CA.

Their stuff is very well packaged. It came with a mounting bracket, all the hardware you need, and a short length of tube to hook it to the radiator. You just find somewhere that the can fits and install. I put mine next to the outlet side of the intercooler tubing I have, and had to bend the bracket 90* to mount it to the top of the radiator frame - totally easy process.

The canister itself is super nice with an easy to remove unscrewable lid, and nice welds on the inlet tube at the base, and the aluminum is a nice polished finish with "Mishimoto" laser engraved into the top. They also sell a red and black one, but I opted for the aluminum.

Next up was the intercooler, their Z-line model, which is the smallest one they sell in their universal options, and this one comes in either black, or aluminum.

The intercooler dropped right in to the same spot the old one was, and wound up being the same length. This is a bar and plate style intercooler with nice cast aluminum end tanks, and good welds. The old one was thin pieces of aluminum welded together everywhere to make the shape. Here's the inside of the intercooler.

It's a way prettier, and nicer made intercooler. But the other one was $60 off ebay... so it did its job for a bit.

Also a good thing to note, is you can drop the intercooler out of the car and run over it and they'll likely allow you to return it and get a new one. Each one is marked and has a lifetime warranty and from everything I've read - they mean lifetime.

Once I put the grill in, the intercooler sits pretty nice in the space I intended. It's about 1" lower than I wanted, but I can cut more of the radiator frame upwards later. For now, it's in. I also used their silicone tubing and T-clamps to install. The T-clamps worked great, held on tight, and do not strip threads like the cheap ones, so I'm happy with that. It was way easier to assemble this time around with good clamps.

Now I just have to wait for my next paycheck, I'll be getting a couple more parts from them, and that other slant six and start pulling it apart.

 

[MuuMuu101]

I'm a little confused... I didn't see a big shiny turbo in that lot of parts. Lol.

 

[Serj22]

I'm a little confused... I didn't see a big shiny turbo in that lot of parts. Lol.

They don't sell them... I've sent a sponsorship letter to Greddy to see what I could do, and haven't heard back. That's ok though. I've got the turbo there, one sitting in my kitchen, and likely find another one to play with as well.

 

[Bill Dedman]

Wow~!

Lookin good Dave!

David,

What us your desire/intention regarding that "new" slant six you just took delivery of? Is it to ultimately be a street engine, race engine, street and strip, or what?

Please email me at: [email protected], so we can discuss this stuff in detail without loading up FABO pages with minutiae that lots of folks might have no interest in...

I envy you, having a "blank sheet of paper" to work with, here, regarding this new motor!

It's exciting!:blob:

 

[CichliDart]

and my plan is to drop my solid lifter head on top of it, and then likely sell the hydraulic head to someone who needs one.

I may be interested in that if it is a peanut head.

Mike

 

[Serj22]

I may be interested in that if it is a peanut head.

Mike

If it is, I'll give you a good deal on it. Not looking to get rich.

David,

What us your desire/intention regarding that "new" slant six you just took delivery of? Is it to ultimately be a street engine, race engine, street and strip, or what?

Please email me at: [email protected], so we can discuss this stuff in detail without loading up FABO pages with minutiae that lots of folks might have no interest in...

I envy you, having a "blank sheet of paper" to work with, here, regarding this new motor!

It's exciting!:blob:

You know Bill, the excitement of this thread I think partially comes from discussion, so I don't mind if there are 10 or 11 pages worth of talk. My thought process has gone in so many different directions. If you look at page 1, I start this thread building a carbutetor that I didn't even use, using a color scheme that I decided not to have. Then I buy another carbuteretor and build it, only to find it's too small for my liking, to buy another that I don't want and then finally settle on a 350 and actually use it.

Then I paint the engine bay copper
Then I paint the motor blue
Then I paint the motor silver
Then I paint the engine bay black
Then I paint the exhaust manifold white
Then I paint the exhaust manifold blue
Then I use aluminum piping and polish it
Then I paint it blue
Then I buy MSD 6aln
Then I don't even use it
Then I buy mallory 6 ignition
Then I don't even use that
Then I buy HEI and use that

Are you seeing how my brain works? I'm a little too artistic and creative I guess, and I'm already deciding on a different color to paint the engine bay.... but anyway...

RIGHT NOW (that's the important term) I have a thought about the new engine going into my shop. Also, 15-20psi max.

The thing first - and foremost in my mind is that this car is my car - meaning my only one. I have the '74 318 Dart, but the driving joy is not the same if you catch my drift.

That's also why I'm opting to build a second engine instead of pulling the one currently in the car, because this minimizes downtime. I can still drive the car while I build an engine. Then when the other engine is out of the car... I don't know what I'll do with it - but something.

Block - So my thought is thus - how cheaply can I rebuild a motor while making some improvements to what's inside. There's a machinist nearby that I use for all my work. I'm thinking of dissasembling the block, and dropping it off with him so he can clean the deck (not drop the deck any) But perhaps bore the cylinders out slightly. I see a lot of people going .030 over, and am thinking that may be a good option.

Crank- I WAS going to see if I could get the crank shaft ground off center to turn it into a stroker, but I have since decided against that as I don't think the cost/power ratio would be much benefit to me. I can likely make up the difference in 1 or 2 psi of boost.

Rods and pistons - I'd like to tell you I know what to buy, but I don't. Something that is not super expensive and will withstand the boost pressure and be a reliable, good option.

Timing chain - I will try and find a double roller for this, or I'll likely just replace it with a cloys timing set.

Camshaft - I'd be lying if I said I knew what all the numbers on a cam grind really meant. I sort of understand it - as far as lift, duration of 360, etc... but as far as what cam I should get, I don't know. I've heard that the comp cam available is not a good turbo cam, but what about the brown, marine, etc? Or am I looking at finding an ISky or something? I feel like price-wise a cam that already exists is what I want, as opposed to a custom grind. Also I'd need new lifters since I am not using the hydraulic system.

Head:


The head is already decked nicely, and shaved a little.

Valves - I'm thinking of using the valves it has since they're new, but replacing the springs with something more robust, I hear 340 valve springs work? Or is it 360?

Ports - I already have a port done on the head, and it's gasket matched. I'll likely polish it while the valves are out.

And so far that's all I can think of that I'd actually change, the rest would just be a normal rebuild - new gaskets, etc...

 

[Serj22]

I'm also now thinking about a long rod slant with dished 2.2 pistons or something. Doug Dutra wrote an article about putting 198 rods in with different pistons and details ways to lower the C:R for a turbo build. There's so many options out there...

 

[Brandon Weaver]

2 problems with that.

1. 198 slants are the rarest of slants, only made 4 years. Everyone has seen/heard of the Dutra article, and now thinks their 198s are worth their weight in gold, just for the rods.

2. The 2.2/2.5 engine family is like the slant. Old and obsolete. No one makes a forged motor for the 2.2 (or 2.5) anymore. Only Hyper cast pistons that I know of.

The long rod motor wouldn't provide you with much of a benefit really. Sure, lighter rotating assembly and more compression, but you don't really need either of those. By the time you got 198 rods and had them reconditioned, and then had a forged piston made, you'd be in the ballpark of the K1/Wiseco combo. Just a couple hundred under most likely. A stock rod/forged piston (even if it was custom) would be a better route IMO.

Also, keep in mind your newly acquired is a cast motor. Cast cranks have gone to 300 horse, but I think it's uncharted territory past there.

Some more thoughts:
Overbore: only bore as much as you need. Your machinist will be able to tell you that number. 80's motors are said to be thinner, I don't know yea or nay on that. Regardless, I wouldn't want to bore past .060 and look into a sonic check if it needs that much

Crank: Nothing fancy. It's a cast crank, you're not supposed to offset grind those I don't think. If it needs a little undersized, fine. Another thing your machinist will have to look at.

Rods and Pistons: like I've been saying for a while, I'd look at the FlatLander forged piston rebuild kit. Also, I'd shoot for a 8-8.5 comp ratio. I wouldn't dip below 7, it'd just make it a dog off boost.

Cam: No one really knows. *I* would say most lift you can get, first off. Then I'd say a 264* or smaller cam ([email protected] if measured that way) and no more than 40* overlap (or no more than [email protected]) Then (and lots will disagree here) I'd say don't necessarily worry about LSA. 111 or greater will work alright, it don't have to be 114+. LSA is only used to reduce overlap. That's it. Supercharged motors are the only ones that you have to worry about blowing the boost out the exhaust. The thing you have to worry about with a poorly designed turbo system is exhaust pressures being too high and coming back into the cylinder. If you don't know about your turbos that could be a problem, but if you don't push the limit that I said I think you'll be alright.

Oh, and I wouldn't rule out the hydro cam. Just think, no more adjusting valves!

 

[Serj22]

Brandon, that's good info, and I'm very glad you didn't just say "don't build a turbo motor because a turbo slant squished fluffy..."

I will look up that flatlands set. So there's no real good advantage to overboring more than necessary?

And also yes I know it will have the cast crank, and I've heard it's not as sturdy or robust. I'm wondering if I should get everything machined, and then decide to yank the forged crank out of the other block, or let it go.

 

[Brandon Weaver]

https://www.flatlanderracing.com/hpkits-chrysler.html

Power gains from overbore will be minimal. The only advantage I can see that comes from overboring more than necessary would be more room for big valve without shrouding. IF you were to go to big valves (which is an option I wouldn't throw out the window just because your std valves are new) then the .030 would be all that you need to prevent shrouding on the engnbldr valves (1.7/1.44) Even then, I was told those valves would still work wonderful with a stock bore size.

It's been drilled that forged cranks and cast don't interchange. Dutra has done it in one of his exotic motors, so it's not impossible. But it may not be worth the work. I don't know what all is different though... I do know the connecting rods are different. Cast is narrower at the big end, forged is wider. I'm thinking there must be something else as well... Your call either way on that one.

Hmmm. It does seem odd me not saying something negative... Oh, wait. LEARN TURBO MAPS! While your at it, get a decent turbo! :evil3:

Seriously though, that's the base of a good build, that's why it's called a turbo slant :razz::thumbrig: Maps look all confusing and stuff, but once you get the hang off it it ain't too bad. I may try to find you some useful links that helped me learn stuff. Also, the turbo is what ultimately decides the end power you make. Case in point: Tom's "stock" slant with a turbo on it. 23 pounds of boost and he barely made 300 horse. The reason? (IMO) He used an old Regal turbo. Ancient tech and poor efficiency. I'm not saying I'd get top-of-the-line stuff (I certainly wouldn't dish out for that!) but get one that's properly sized and has decent effeciency. Turbo maps will show you what are good and what are poor, both for your app and in general.

 

[Bill Dedman]

Supercharged motors are the only ones that you have to worry about blowing the boost out the exhaust. !

Brandon; when you said "Supercharged motors are the only ones that you have to worry about blowing the boost out the exhaust." did you mean that turbocharged motors don't have to consider that?

I would like you to explain that to me. One way or another...

I really enjoyed your explanation of the answers to the questions Dick asked, and thoroughly agree with everything you said. I wish I could learn to read turbo/compressor maps, but I am afraid it's simply too late for me. I'll just ask you....

 

[Serj22]

While not ever adjusting the valves again sounds great and all - I've had the 60s head I have right now machined a couple times and it's VERY nice already. It's cost effective. Also my dad told me that the solid one is a better head to have anyway if there's an option between the two. He sometimes knows what he's talking about, but right now, it's just that the head is already super clean. I looked at several stock grinds to get an idea of what the camshaft is supposed to look like for a STOCK motor, and maybe make a baseline off of that for what would be good to add to it, but that just confused me more.

Also I noted that the 60-80 cams are very different from the 81+ I'm guessing because of the hydraulic lifter thing. So I'm wondering what ball park estimate I want this cam to be in. Unfortunately for me, there are so many options available to buy online for the slant six, but I'm not sure which one is for me.

I think I'll scrap the longrod idea too, since just like Brandon said, I've noticed a lot of "unobtanium" about them and how many millions of dollars those rods sell for. SO I guess my other question would be, what is a nice, price friendly piston for what I am doing? ALso, am I looking for flat pistons, domed, or dished? I assume Dished pistons to lower the C:R a bit but like mentioned above i will try and stay out of the 7's.

I see a lot of people who buy rebuild kits for these, and they say to just buy it, scrap the cam it comes with, and buy your own cam, and it's cheaper than buying everything seperately, would that be the same case if I'm replacing the pistons too? Or should I piece it all together seperately?

I looked at the flatlander kit, and at $1,200 without including shipping it doesn't have a cam included. Is this the only option or just one of them? Their stock master kit is $430 and am wondering where the huge difference will lie. It seems like they pull pistons and parts from other sources, and then sell them to you in a setup.

 

[Brandon Weaver]

I say supercharged motors are the only ones you have to worry about, but I guess if you built a super duper lotsa money turbo motor with the most efficient turbine, so on and so forth, and then ran low-ish amounts of boost then you may have problems. The turbo graph in the below post is a very efficient setup. I think most have more exhaust pressure than inlet pressure, or equal (I'm talking higher in the rpm range, toward/after peak power). This is the reason of the old 'dont have overlap' train of thought, it wasn't cuz of boost blowing out (though it seems to have morphed into that.) Don't worry Bill, you're not the only one I've seen say that. Appears to be a common misconception. Tis true when referring to supercharged setups, just not so much on turbo setups.

From Billy Godbold (A Comp Cam Lobe designer)

Older turbo systems often needed cams with almost no overlap because the backpressure was much higher than the inlet pressure and the systems were prone to reversion issues

Here's a couple of articles to go over (You may have read them before though)

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ctrp-1106-turbo-camshaft-guide/

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-1011-cams-for-turbocharged-engines/

Serj, heads don't really matter themselves when talking cams I don't think. What I mean is, I believe you can put the hydro setup on your nice head. I think you need the rocker setup, pushrods, lifters, and cam... maybe somethin else to. It's been detailed more over at .org. I'm not really sure which would be better, I think if I were to build one I'd lean towards the hydro, but that's just me. I think it may be one of those personal preference type deals...

Huh, I haven't compared the stock hydro cams and mech cams too much. That is interesting that you say they differ so much though.

I know of a few turbo builds using the old MP 244 stick (don't be fooled, this isn't much like the stock 244 cam at all. More lift, aggressive lobes, unsure of LSA) and having wonderful luck, also there is a fellow that runs a 264 cam on 114 and has wonderful luck. I've always thought a 252 cam (like the OCG818 cam) on a 112lsa would work nicely for a turbo cam. I've got the 819 (264*) on a 109 and it's got a little bit of lope. Me thinks that may be a little too much overlap, but it would work if need be (46* overlap) it wouldn't be ideal though. I would use Oregon Cam Grinders for a cam, they can either regrind yours (if I could go back in time this is what I'd do) or grind on a new blank (i went this route, I feel like it was money that could've been spent better elsewhere) and they have TONS of different lobe profiles, not to mention more grinds than anyone else for the slant (I think they have 50 or more :glasses7: ) Or, you might give Comp a call and have them custom make you one for your app. That would be a fine way to go as well, as they would actually know what they're talking about lol.

More on pistons; Your spare motor already has the 'perfect' compression ratio. My late 70's cast motor had somewhere around 8.1:1 actual SCR right from the factory. The 80s one may be a touch closer to actual spec, but a dished piston shouldn't be needed. Now, you could get a taller piston, and then get a dish to drop compression back down to where you started in hopes that you'd get a better shaped combustion chamber, but now you're getting into engine theories that may or may not have any noticeable effect. No way do you want a dome. Higher comp and a poorer combustion.

My thoughts on the 1200 dollar forged piston kit was along the lines of what you stated, buy a package and save money. However, the more I got to looking I noticed something.
Other than the pistons, the only thing the HP kit has different than the master kit is:
Moly rings (unknown rings in master)
High Volume oil pump
And 'Performance' wrist pins

Also, it says:

Some master engine kits can have parts upgraded or even deleted from the kit. Items like timing sets, oil pumps, cams and pistons can be upgraded to performance or aftermarket including forged pistons (not applicable to all kits) Call us for details on your kit at (603) 378-0090

So, I'm thinkin you should call them and discuss deletin the cam and tossin in the forged pistons and goin from there. The forged pistons they have aren't "off the shelf" I don't think, I was under the impression that they just ordered them for you or sumthin, that's how you could get different comp heights, have them made 'for most aftermarket heads' and so on.

Lastly, You may want to ask about the Master Kit w/out pistons and rings, and the price actual custom piston mfgrs like Probe, Ross, etc.

Oh, and there may be some stuff I am not completely key-rekt on. I'm still learnin too!

 

[Brandon Weaver]

Bill, here's what I meant by that...

 

[Bill Dedman]

Bill, here's what I meant by that...

Thanks for the graphic explanation and the text, explaining the different phemomena exhibited by supercharged, and then, turbo motors.

I have run out of time to write, right now, but will continue this discussion later.

Thanks for the time it took to resarch and write that. I do appreciate it.

 

[Bill Dedman]

Bill, here's what I meant by that...

That is an interesting graphic presentation, for sure, Makes me see the necessity of having an onboard pressure gauge installed on the exhaust side as well as a boost gauge.

But, due to my thick-headed, muddled thinking, even as well as the reasons were presented, I still cannot see how the lessened pressure-differential, changing from turbo to supercharging, is going to affect flow out the exhaust valve, during overlap. I understand how it would reduce reversion, as less exhaust pressure would cause less exhaust gas making its way back up the intake port, (with some boost there to stop it,) but how does that affect gas flowing out the exhaust valve while it's still open (on overlap)? That exhaust port doesn't know kind of gas that is, going out.


Duttweiler said, "“When you spread the lobe-separation angle way out, the engine gets lazy. As an example of a good V6 engine, Duttweiler says he built a V6 turbo Buick with a 215-degree-at-0.050 intake lobe camshaft that made 900 lb-ft of torque and 580 hp and idled at 16 inches of manifold vacuum."

Not one word in that statenent, about lobe separtion angle.... Go figure.

Nowhere did I find any explanation of the benefits of having at least, some overlap in a turbocharged engine as opposed to none... so, I remain ignorant on that subject. :banghead: They implied that, but never actually said it.

I also would like to get some knowledgable person's opinion about whether this turbo I have in my possession, is well-suited to my individual engine, or needs to be replaced, due to mismatches in its size, and, or, flow map descriptions of design inadequacies.

I will try to get some information as to what it is, beyond a 66mm Turbonetics with a 4-bolt flange. I know tha'ts not much to go on... How can I identify it further?

Any info will ne appreciated.

And, thanks a lot for your interest! Gerry at the G-pop shop in Springdale, Arkansas, looked at it (the turbo,) and said it was okay, but I dunno...