Slant 6 Turbo 68Dart Project

[Serj22]

Spring Fling is way down here. I don't think the Dart will make it, but I may show up to look at cars and buy parts.

Oh dang. L.A. area. I just looked it up. It might be a bit far for me.

Today I built one of the Support rods in the engine bay I had wanted to. Right now it's just sheet metal screwed down, I'll get some bolts for both of them when the car's ready to roll again and drill the holes out larger.

I had some leftover 1" steel conduit and bent two pieces into an arc. I did not like the straight rods like on the '74 I have and figured these would be different looking and more "custom" I smashed the ends down over a triangular piece of steel, cleaned them up with a grinder, cut off the excess. I think the first one turned out pretty good.

I primed it and sprayed it safety blue like the intake.

Looks the part. Tomorrow likely I'll make the next one. I already have a piece of pipe bent. I made them the same so it's a mirror image.

 

[Serj22]

I did wind up making the bar for the other side, and now the weather looks like it will start raining.



I had to move the fender mounting point to an L bracket just below the hoodline. The position I had them before wouldn't let the hood close just slightly. The next plan would be to find a way to connect the two fenders. That will serve two purposes - Rigidity (maybe) and a place to put my throttle return spring where I need it. The point I mount it too off the turbo is too low and doesn't return all the way sometimes.

I added a backflush piece to my upper heater hose, and plan to drain the coolant tomorrow morning, get it as clean as possible, then when the rains start, put a hose on there and let it go out in the gravel by my shop. Hopefully i can get the car that far.

I also drilled some holes through the heat sink I got, and mounted my HEI unit as inspiration to actually get it wired up.

 

[Serj22]

Well, I limped the car over to my shop, then went and got a 50ft garden hose and a T valve that goes in the upper heater hose to blow the water system out. I drained all the coolant, then ran a hose on it for about 15 minutes, till everything was clear, then I took the hose out, and inserted my air compressor hose onto the fitting, and created a large volcano of water, some little debris and all sorts of junk came flying out of the radiator. Then hosed it again, then air, then filled the system.

170-180 degrees constant now. Awesome.

The T-clamps on the turbo piping are starting to drive me nuts. I'll have to buy new ones. These cheap chinese ones keep coming apart. I was making 2psi boost pressure and thought I had another problem, looked under hood and two of the T-clamps were loose. Tightened them as much as I could, and naturally they stripped before actually being tight, but making 8 psi again. Maybe if I find some better ones I'll find that I can make 14psi easily.

In other news I am beginning to engineer my master shutdown switch. I am going to mount the lever activated moroso switch I have laterally in the trunk, then drill a hole through the arm, and attach a rod there, then remove one reverse light bulb, and drill a hole through the tail light lens where the reverse light was. Then I will grommet that section, put my "OFF" indicator over the rest of the reverse light lens. Then it will have a chrome knob, that you push, to throw the lever forward and turn the car off.

The problem now is I need a relay to shut down the field side of the alternator, since the car will keep running even if I disconnect the battery. I spoke with a tech and they said they would normally have you run the car, then hit the button and see if it stops. If it stops in a sec, you pass, if it still runs, you fail. All because the battery is in the trunk.

So I'm working on that, because I do want to get some times in at the track, just for fun at least. I also don't want to put the battery back in the engine bay, I am very invested into this setup.

 

[Serj22]

I'm waiting for a relay to come for the battery shutdown switch, hoping it's here soon so I can go to the drags next wednesday.

Yesterday I popped the valve cover off and went through my valves, they were a bit tight, and I was pulling 7 inches of vacuum. I backed them off to the proper setting and now I have 15 inches of vacuum, no more stumble idle, and it runs great. I'm working on ideas of a new turbo manifold, trying to decide to use the stock one (which will be cut) or invest some time and money into a regular header-type manifold made from an exhaust manifold flange set from ebay and a "build your own header" kit. I think I could do it as far as tacking it all together, then bring it to the muffler shop I use and they could weld it all together for me. It's still a thought.

But for today, I'm prepping for a car show tomorrow. I cleaned the whole car which felt nice since it hasn't gotten a bath in weeks, did a tech wax, and now I'm pretty happy with it. It'll be fun to talk to people about "why would you turbo a slant six?"

Sorry I have not been doing much turbo work lately, when the car started overheating it was sitting in the driveway for a while so I started building other things for it. I'll be back on it soon though.

 

[Bill Dedman]

"I'm waiting for a relay to come for the battery shutdown switch, hoping it's here soon so I can go to the drags next wednesday."

How are you going to run the wiring for that shutoff switch?

I have to do that this upcoming week, myself, but, I am woefully ignorant of the best way to wire it. My (illogical, probably,) thought was to add a relay that would be normally "off" to the wire that connects the distributor ro the coil, so that when the relay loses power, due to having been turned off at the external switch, it will create an open circuit in the wire that connects the coil and the distributor switching mechanism that operates as an electronic "set of points" on what was the breraker plate, in days gone by.

Will that work, or, is there a better way?

I'm all ears...

Thanks for any better ideas!

 

[Serj22]

I read up on it over and over and there's a lot of different "Ways" but basically all you are trying to accomplish is have the whole car shut down when the switch is turned off. So I am going to try hooking the relay to the alternator field wire, so when the switch is on, it allows the alternator to stay connected to the system, and when it disconnects, the alt should discharge to the battery and then it will be cut off from the system.

Some people skip the relay and just run the alt charge wire all the way back to the battery, so if the switch is disconnected, the alt sends power to the battery, but the battery is now shut off from the system, so so is the alt.

I've read about 10 different methods to do it, and they all seem to "work" The relay just seems the cleanest.

This is where my idea came from:

http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/weight/battery_relocate.htm

 

[Bill Dedman]

I've read about 10 different methods to do it, and they all seem to "work" The relay just seems the cleanest.

Freddie had already installed a master cutoff switch that did everything BUT kill the motor.... so, in the interest of expediency, I am going to use the relay I just bought, to defeat (interrupt) the primary ignition circuit to kill the motor when the switch is turned off.

I don't see any reason why that won't work; do you?

Thanks for the info! Somebody needs to tell the guy who wrote that bevy of articles you sent the URL for, that a pulley is not "reciprocating weight." He refers to it in that manner several times in the text of that dialogue, so I know it wasn't a fluke; he really believes that. It was an unwelcome distraction in an otherwise well-written assemblage of articles. Lots of good information there... and, I don't think that's nit-picking.

Thanks!

 

[Serj22]

I didn't even read the rest of the article, and just was hunting through everyone's info for the infoirmation I needed. I went back and read and his placement of the switch is ideal, and his workmanship is nice and clean for it. I had to go a different route. Basically to turn off my car, the reverse light on the driver side will have a big "OFF" and a lightning bolt, then you will see a plunger switch coming out of where the reverse light used to be. Then I'll just have a single reverse light on the passenger side. (can't see anything with em anyway)

I think your idea would work. Do you have the 2 pole switch like I do? Or is yours the newer 4 pole that is actually meant for it? I don't know why they sell the 2 pole and say it kills the car, all it does is disconnect the battery, and then the alternator keeps the car running. According to the track rules, the switch needs to kill everything. I wonder if BMW owners with stock batteries in the trunk get away with not having all this.

 

[Bill Dedman]

I didn't even read the rest of the article, and just was hunting through everyone's info for the infoirmation I needed. I went back and read and his placement of the switch is ideal, and his workmanship is nice and clean for it. I had to go a different route. Basically to turn off my car, the reverse light on the driver side will have a big "OFF" and a lightning bolt, then you will see a plunger switch coming out of where the reverse light used to be. Then I'll just have a single reverse light on the passenger side. (can't see anything with em anyway)

I think your idea would work. Do you have the 2 pole switch like I do? Or is yours the newer 4 pole that is actually meant for it? I don't know why they sell the 2 pole and say it kills the car, all it does is disconnect the battery, and then the alternator keeps the car running. According to the track rules, the switch needs to kill everything. I wonder if BMW owners with stock batteries in the trunk get away with not having all this.

I just bought a nornally-open relay to fit into the primary (12-volt) wiring that connects the distributor and the coil; I haven't even looked at how Freddie wired the main power (battery) off switch, because I know it won't kill the motor. I am pretty sure the engine won't run without the switched signal that goes from the dist. to the coil.

Then again, I have been wrong before... too many times to mention.)ops:

 

[Serj22]

Pics from the car show:

I romped on it a bit today, making some pressure, getting some turbo action going on and checking my AFR guage, need to adjust the carburetor again because it dips to 14 on boost. No good. I saw a bunch of smoke come out of the hood when I got to work, and lo-and behold, it was steam, a stream of water was shooting out at the exhaust pipe...

And this lovely event occured today. I already popped it out, then 3 others, and replaced them (auto store only had 4, I'll get the other one later) with brass ones.

 

[CichliDart]

Lookin good!:cheers:

Pics from the car show:

I romped on it a bit today, making some pressure, getting some turbo action going on and checking my AFR guage, need to adjust the carburetor again because it dips to 14 on boost. No good. I saw a bunch of smoke come out of the hood when I got to work, and lo-and behold, it was steam, a stream of water was shooting out at the exhaust pipe...

And this lovely event occured today. I already popped it out, then 3 others, and replaced them (auto store only had 4, I'll get the other one later) with brass ones.

 

[Serj22]

Thanks chichli!

Leaf blower video. It's loud.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTutTfYHVI8"]Turbo 225 Sound Bite Engine bay and Exhaust - YouTube[/ame]

 

[pishta]

Nice Pishta-pipe bro!

 

[CichliDart]

Love it!

Sounds serious : )

Thanks chichli!

Leaf blower video. It's loud.

Turbo 225 Sound Bite Engine bay and Exhaust - YouTube

 

[Bill Dedman]

Love it!

Sounds serious : )

I think it sounds like it means business!:angryfir:

Tomorrow (May 2, 2015,) I will FINALLY have my car at a (somewhat) proper drag strip for some test 'n' tune runs and the FIVE YEARS of waiting will be pretty much over for me! Not that I will learn anything spectacular; I have the waste gate set at a paltry 10 pounds of boost, so I can get the chassis at least, somewhat sorted out before I get serious, but if this bucket of bolts actually makes it down the strip under its own power without blowing itself up, I will fall down on my knees and thank the powers that be for making at least, the beginnings of my dreams, come true.

More boost will be in the offing, soon, if this maiden voyage proves at all successful...

We'll see...

Wish me luck! rayer:rayer:rayer:rayer:

The gates open at 4, racing starts at 5, and goes on into the night... so,I won't get home until midnight, if all goes well, (and, when did THAT ever happen???):banghead:

So, don't look for any early results; they won't be HERE until the morning hours, but win, lose, or fail, I promise to post the results of this first outing, however ugly it may be...

My guess: quarter mile times of 13.50 at 100 mph (converted to 1,320 feet from the 1,000-foot times they give you.) I estimate a 60-foot experience at 1.8, or thereabouts...

Let's hope I have SOMETHING to report... It's a 60-mile (one-way) drive... I'd hate to do that for nothing... LOL!ops:

Five years ago, I'd read the posted results of Tom Wolfe's '70 Dart and Ryan Peterson's '66 Valiant; they were both making over 500 horsepower, and I said to myself, "Self, THAT'S what I want to do!":cheers:
They made it look easy...

It's NOT!

But, it's FUN!!!!:blob:

Well, so far it is... We'll see....:happy1:

 

[Bill Dedman]

"I promise to post the results of this first outing, however ugly it may be...

My guess: quarter mile times of 13.50 at 100 mph (converted to 1,320 feet from the 1,000-foot times they give you.) I estimate a 60-foot experience at 1.8, or thereabouts..."

Well, I'm back from the wars with war stories, as promised!

This is an eighth-mile/1,000-foot strip (there's not a quarter-mile drag strip in Arkansas!) so I had to go with the times printed on my timeslip and have the online Wallace Automotive Computer program extrapolate them to what they would be, in a quarter.

Well, there was a problem (see photo.) My first run was an aborted single, because my 76 year-old brain malfunctioned, forgetting that the reverse-pattern Turbo Action shifter requires that you pull back on the shifter to go from 2nd to third, not push forward, but, old habits die hard when you've lived for over two thirds of a century, so, I did the stupid thing and hit 1st gear, which, fortunately, is on a sprag, so just overruns... aborting the run.

On THAT run, I experienced an unfamiliar phenomen, and didn't figure it out for a while... I was running with no hood on the car. When the transmission shifted into 2nd gear, I couldn't help but notice a spray hitting my windsheld, momentarily. When it dried (which it did, immediately,) it left a residue that was not oily.

I just dismissed it as some sort of fluke, not being able to figure it out.

Here's what happened: My Snowperformance Boost Cooler had pure alcohol in it. The cold-side plumbing that delivers air to my carb hat was forced loose by the boost and the spray from the Boost cooler escaped into the atmosphere, and ended up on my windshield.

That was the aborted run.


The second (and, final,) run was done with me unawares of this significant boost leak; I hadn't figured out what had happened, yet.

I did a better job of driving my wounded steed in the second stanza, and was rewarded with an 8.81 for the eighth, which translates to a 13.71 for the quarter.

I had predicted a 13.5 last night, but, that was for a healthy motor; not one leaking significant boost (see photo.) When I get back to the track (see "more" developments,) I'll try this again and see whether my prediction comes true.

added development... when I tried to put the car on the trailer for the trip home, it had no reverse. This is a new transmission that has performed flawlessly,so far, so. I am clueless as to what is going on... It does everything well; it just won't back up...

Stay tuned for chapter II...

Oh yes,a pitiful. wheel-spinning 2.11 60-foot time... ugh!

 

[Serj22]

These setups sure do behave differently once you try and push them. At least now you know the clamps and everything are not up to par, or something happened with that carb hat bead. Luckily now, you know about all of it and can sort it out. The transmission though, I don't know what could possibly be going on there.

 

[Bill Dedman]

These setups sure do behave differently once you try and push them. At least now you know the clamps and everything are not up to par, or something happened with that carb hat bead. Luckily now, you know about all of it and can sort it out. The transmission though, I don't know what could possibly be going on there.

Thanks for your interest! I will have to thoroughly examine the carb hat/discharge pipe interface to see what allowed that junction to come apart, for sure. Only 10 pounds of boost shouldn't be pushing plumbing joints apart like that... sloppy... very sloppy!ops:

I have a couple of friends who build racing transmissions for a living (and, hi-stall converters,) so, I'll tap their combined expertise to see what can be malfunctioning, to keep this thing out of reverse.

If it's not one thing, it's another... That transmission has less than 50 miles on it...:banghead:

 

[Serj22]

I experienced a lot of the failures over time and usually it's because of cheap stuff. For instance, my T-bolt clamps all started failing and I noticed I couldn't build much pressure. They all came lose/ stripped threads, etc... it seems with the cheaper ones it's a one use item, so if you tighten it, then take it off, that was it. If you put it back it never gets tight again. Also, if you have the right size T-bolt clamp the two humps in it should almost touch, yours on the hat looks real far apart like it's the wrong size, or the nut backed off a lot.

 

[Idaho]

Good to see you got a run in Bill. You guys keep at it. Get it all sorted out.
Make it easy for the rest of us to put all those slanties to a good use before they all rust away.
Oh ya, figure out how to do it on the cheap too.

 

[Bill Dedman]

Good to see you got a run in Bill. You guys keep at it. Get it all sorted out.
Make it easy for the rest of us to put all those slanties to a good use before they all rust away.
Oh ya, figure out how to do it on the cheap too.

Thanks for your kind comments! This has not been cheap, but, probably for the performance potential involved, is likely cheaper than swapping in a V8, after all the necessary swap parts are paid for.

I say that because, according to the Wallace online automotive calculator, a no b.s. service that seems to give some fairly accurate results, this motor, yesterday, with only 10 pounds of boost (some of which was leaking,) made 233 horsepower on that particular run. Now, my engine s a closely-cloned copy of Ryan Peterson's and Tom Wolfe's engines, both of which make in excesss of 500 horseepower, but at a strastopheric. 28 pounds of boost. Just starting out, as it were, I limited my boost to 10 pounds with a Turbonetics waste gate, for practical reasons.

You can build a stock-piston/rod, non O-ringed (CHEAP,) slant 6 for the street without spending much money at all, and get similar performance that I got, which was over one hp per cubic inch, and at a perfornance-level that is hard to come-by, naturaly aspirated.

The difference is, my motor has some forged internals ($$$) and is slated for a (LOT) more boost, down the road, but that is not something that a lot of folks would necessarily be interested in.

The "extra" money I spent is all about resistance to detonation, and if you're willing to not require boost (and, horsepower) levels over 10 pounds and 250 horsepower, I think you can have a turbocharged a body that will run 13's with stock pistons, rods, cam, and head gasket. You could probably, add the turbo and wastegate, having never taken the head off the motor.

That will probably be a whole lot cheaper than swapping in a 360, with all the necessary add-ons that procedure requires.

Just my 2-cents...

 

[Bill Dedman]

I experienced a lot of the failures over time and usually it's because of cheap stuff. For instance, my T-bolt clamps all started failing and I noticed I couldn't build much pressure. They all came lose/ stripped threads, etc... it seems with the cheaper ones it's a one use item, so if you tighten it, then take it off, that was it. If you put it back it never gets tight again. Also, if you have the right size T-bolt clamp the two humps in it should almost touch, yours on the hat looks real far apart like it's the wrong size, or the nut backed off a lot.

I hadn't had this sort of problem before, but will look a lot more closely at those connections now. for sure! I'll try to send a few more photos, later, after I get the car off the trailer.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Brandon Weaver]

Glad to hear you got a run Bill. Sorry that you couldn't make it to MoKan, I was hoping to see the car make its maiden voyage in person. That's too bad you had transmission problems on top of leak problems as well.

You can build a stock-piston/rod, non O-ringed (CHEAP,) slant 6 for the street without spending much money at all, and get similar performance that I got, which was over one hp per cubic inch, and at a perfornance-level that is hard to come-by, naturaly aspirated.

The "extra" money I spent is all about resistance to detonation, and if you're willing to not require boost (and, horsepower) levels over 10 pounds and 250 horsepower, I think you can have a turbocharged a body that will run 13's with stock pistons, rods, cam, and head gasket. You could probably, add the turbo and wastegate, having never taken the head off the motor.

That will probably be a whole lot cheaper than swapping in a 360, with all the necessary add-ons that procedure requires.

Just my 2-cents...

I wish I could find someone that did a v8 swap on a budget like Serj did his turbo build. I can't though, but this is the best I have:

-Small block (say, 360) and transmission (904 or 727) running and in decent condition $3-400? Possibly less depending case from case
-v8 wiring harness, new from Year One $125-145
-v8 conversion mounts $140-180
-Small block trans crossmember
-v8 Kickdown linkage (good chance it will come with the engine/trans)
-v8 steering link (drop center)

The prices I do know come in from $565-$725. If we set a budget of $1500 like serj did, I am going to guess we could make it without too much trouble. Not to mention it'd be much easier to tune (no witchcraft here)

If I add my $.02 to yours, does it make $.04 or cancel out and make 0 cents?

P.S. I understand that you still have TONS of tuning and issues to figure out, but I wouldn't be satisfied till it pushed 300 ponies at the crank on 10lbs. I don't think it's anything out of reach for a built motor like yours. I know of 2 blown slants that make (IMO) decent hp-per-psi. The one makes 250hp/330tq with 7psi, the other makes [email protected]#... more 2 cents I suppose...

 

[Serj22]

The other thing to factor in with cost in a build like mine, is the engine never left the car. I think once you have a nice $400 engine, it's almost silly not to at least open it up and maybe replace a couple things before putting all that work into dropping it in. I don't know though. Mabe you could just drop and go, but there's all those other parts to swap out too.

 

[Bill Dedman]

Glad to hear you got a run Bill. Sorry that you couldn't make it to MoKan, I was hoping to see the car make its maiden voyage in person. That's too bad you had transmission problems on top of leak problems as well.



I wish I could find someone that did a v8 swap on a budget like Serj did his turbo build. I can't though, but this is the best I have:

-Small block (say, 360) and transmission (904 or 727) running and in decent condition $3-400? Possibly less depending case from case
-v8 wiring harness, new from Year One $125-145
-v8 conversion mounts $140-180
-Small block trans crossmember
-v8 Kickdown linkage (good chance it will come with the engine/trans)
-v8 steering link (drop center)

The prices I do know come in from $565-$725. If we set a budget of $1500 like serj did, I am going to guess we could make it without too much trouble. Not to mention it'd be much easier to tune (no witchcraft here)

If I add my $.02 to yours, does it make $.04 or cancel out and make 0 cents?

P.S. I understand that you still have TONS of tuning and issues to figure out, but I wouldn't be satisfied till it pushed 300 ponies at the crank on 10lbs. I don't think it's anything out of reach for a built motor like yours. I know of 2 blown slants that make (IMO) decent hp-per-psi. The one makes 250hp/330tq with 7psi, the other makes [email protected]#... more 2 cents I suppose...

Thanks for your interest, Brandon! Half the reason I do this is for the feedback I get; I learn a lot from others who have, maybe a different perspective than I have. I'm an old hot rodder who has been doing this type of thing:banghead: for more years than I like to admit, but I am a newbie at turbos and slant sixes, so, I have a lot to learn!

I agree with your assessment, but for now, I'm just happy that it went down the track, sort of...

More later....:glasses7: