Slant 6 Turbo 68Dart Project

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Well since I have an agreed upon price, tomorrow I'm going to see about removing the motor and moving it to my shop so I can work on it after work every day. Then I'll pay the landlord, but I'd like to get it dissasembled. I feel like i need to drop the block off at the machine shop then I can get some ideas as to what size pistons I need to get, etc... and then go from there. I looked up Wiseco's and it looks like if I bought them all individually, they're about $80/piece or $480 for the set, then find some molly rings, and then buy a master kit, take the cam from the kit, and send it off to Oregon Grinders, or see if my machine shop can handle it if I give them the info on what grind I need. That grind I still don't know what I want though...

And a picture since we're on a new page.

 
Serj, the problem I see with that is with Wiseco pistons you need to use either the K1/Molnar rod or a 198 rod may work. And then in the end, you will end up like Bill and have 9:1 compression. Except he can run on race gas and you can't. Pretty much, your only other options are custom pistons. Either through Flatlander or other well known companies. The good news is I hear custom pistons are getting cheaper... Would've been a lot simpler if Wiseco had just made a plain stock replacement forged piston. I guess that'd be too easy :violent1:

Oh, another thing. If you find the OCG Mech cam spec sheet over at .org (it's in the engine FAQs) look at the 1793D cam. I think that is a nice, simple, single pattern grind that has all the characteristics you'd want. Small duration, semi-aggressive lobes, high lift. Just have it ground at a 111-112 duration. Should come on nice and strong right off idle, and I wouldn't be surprised if it kept pulling to 5k.
Specs: [email protected] duration, [email protected], .485 lift with a 1.5 rocker

Bill, A few things:

Pressure gauge in the exhaust. Yup, hands down agree that would be a wonderful thing to have.

Those charts were supposed to be in one of the Hot Rod articles. HR may have removed them or something, I found them elsewhere and figured it was a decent visual aid. However. The turbo one is a little bit misleading. You see, the turbo i/e pressure ratio shown is what I would consider a pretty efficient. It can vary from as good as that, to looking like the supercharged one. With the intake and exhaust pressures switched. :shock: So pretty much, your cam profile could change drastically for each one. That's the problem with these turbo setups, no two are the same. I've yet to see two that were similar enough to be a decent comparison. Therefore, what may work and be good for one may not be the same for the other. You could have small overlap for fear of blowing the charge out the tailpipe, you could run overlap that would compare to RV-mild N/A cams (if the pressure ratios are similar) or you could have super minimal overlap (like, 244* cam on a 115 LSA) to prevent uncontrollable EGR.

Now all motor builds on the other hand... :D but I digress. You all know by now the ins and outs of both. You chose the rocky road, but I still wish you all luck!

And Bill, sorry, but there ain't much I can do with that information. At first I thought it might have been one of their 'Cheetah' series GN upgrade turbos, but the 66mm puts us in the dark there. The best I can assume is it is some form of a T3/T4 hybrid maybe? The stock GN turbo was considered this. Pretty much, there are different frame sizes of turbo compressors and turbines, with the t4 and the t3 being the more popular of them all. The t3 is smaller and the t4 bigger. Simply put, the hybrid combines the small, quick spooling t3 turbine with the large, air moving t4 compressor. Best of both worlds. Anywho, heres a little graphic that may help us out. Wouldn't happen to remember the shape of the flange would you? (I do believe this is metric)

41OjWvhlJWL.jpg
 
Brandon Weaver said:
Serj, the problem I see with that is with Wiseco pistons you need to use either the K1/Molnar rod or a 198 rod may work. And then in the end, you will end up like Bill and have 9:1 compression. Except he can run on race gas and you can't. Pretty much, your only other options are custom pistons. Either through Flatlander or other well known companies. The good news is I hear custom pistons are getting cheaper... Would've been a lot simpler if Wiseco had just made a plain stock replacement forged piston. I guess that'd be too easy :violent1:

Oh, another thing. If you find the OCG Mech cam spec sheet over at .org (it's in the engine FAQs) look at the 1793D cam. I think that is a nice, simple, single pattern grind that has all the characteristics you'd want. Small duration, semi-aggressive lobes, high lift. Just have it ground at a 111-112 duration. Should come on nice and strong right off idle, and I wouldn't be surprised if it kept pulling to 5k.
Specs: [email protected] duration, [email protected], .485 lift with a 1.5 rocker
Click to expand...

That grind sounds good to me - accepting that I could not figure it out myself. I'll keep researching too. As for pistons, do you know of some other "drop in" configuration piston besides a stock one? I'm figuring if I can't get something extreme, then I can at least find something robust.

Pulling to 5k would be excellent.

As for progressive work done today, I didn't do much. I fixed someone's M1 carbine stock, and re-oiled it, and did more work on a boat restoration, like usual (since it's my job) and since radioshack is closing up, i went in and found some heat shrink tube, and wire connectors, no flat spades like I need for the other part, but I managed to build a harness for my HEI for about $2.00.

20150601_193042_zpsp9xvni8h.jpg


As I work on this engine project as well, I'll be working on going through individual wiring circuits and replacing them with nicer ones, and tuck whatever I can.

As for above I have a t3/t4 hybrid currently while I'm still working on the garrett airreasearch turbo, which is a t3/t3
 
So the 198 rod is shorter? I happen to have a 198 and 225 that were running well when pulled. Might make for a good turbo project?
 
Idaho said:
So the 198 rod is shorter? I happen to have a 198 and 225 that were running well when pulled. Might make for a good turbo project?
Click to expand...

If you want to sell the rods on the "not so expensive" order. I'd be a buyer... if you want them to go to a good home. Otherwise yes, if you build it, the article I read sounds promisingly neat.
 
If I did not have a Demon shell all primed wanting a powerplant I'd let them go. I've always had a hankering to do something with a six. Seems to me there should be 198s out there?
Is there a link to the article in this thread?
 
Idaho said:
If I did not have a Demon shell all primed wanting a powerplant I'd let them go. I've always had a hankering to do something with a six. Seems to me there should be 198s out there?
Is there a link to the article in this thread?
Click to expand...

Here you go:

http://www.slantsix.org/articles/stroking/stroking.htm

Also if you decide to just put the 225 in there and want the 198 rods to have a home... ya know.

And as I recently found out, it's not that they're "rare" persay here, but people want a lot of money for the rods because of this, just like mentioned earlier.
 
Serj22 said:
Molnar looks like the only alternative i can find, at $500 for the set... http://molnarrods.com/slant-six-rods

But I feel like connecting rods would be reman'd so I could get a "replacement" for a 198...
Click to expand...

Dick, Freddie (my ex-partner,) and I ordered our pistons from Wiseco along with a set of K-1 rods and the pistons were delivered with"european" rings, which we then had to file the end gaps on. Those rings are thinner and lighter than OEM stuff. Supposedly, better...

Just FYI...

The k-1 rods might be lighter than OEM 198 rods, but I am only guessing.. The K-1 rods that fit the cast crank ARE considerably lighter than the ones for the forged crank; probably because the bearing is narrower, probably making the whole bottom end of the rod narrower, as well. More esoteric information, requiring yet, more decisions... LOL!
 
Brandon Weaver said:
And Bill, sorry, but there ain't much I can do with that information. At first I thought it might have been one of their 'Cheetah' series GN upgrade turbos, but the 66mm puts us in the dark there. The best I can assume is it is some form of a T3/T4 hybrid maybe? The stock GN turbo was considered this. Pretty much, there are different frame sizes of turbo compressors and turbines, with the t4 and the t3 being the more popular of them all. The t3 is smaller and the t4 bigger. Simply put, the hybrid combines the small, quick spooling t3 turbine with the large, air moving t4 compressor. Best of both worlds. Anywho, heres a little graphic that may help us out. Wouldn't happen to remember the shape of the flange would you? (I do believe this is metric)
41OjWvhlJWL.jpg
Click to expand...

Brandon,

My problem is, the car is not here. I took it (on the trailer) to a shop that belongs to a friend of mine, to remove that faulty transmission. I am too old and lazy to expend the necessary effort at my age, to get it out and into the bed of my pickup, so I can take it to back to the shop for re-installation. He fixed it and I went and I got it and brought it back for re-installation.

That shop is only about 200 feet from the rain-swollen Arkansas river, and just about ten feet elevated from it. Big mistake! Floodwaters are standing 2-feet deep in the shop, so, he can't work.

I'll have to wait 'til the waters recede, before I can get my car back.


When that happens, I can give you some more information as regards that turbo. It's not a 3-bolt flange, but I don't even know the significance of that... sorry.:banghead:
 
Oh, and the 198 rods won't even work with your motor Serj. Sorry, it just now crossed my mind. 198 is a forged crank motor, and the rods won't swap to your cast crank without a lot of work. Order (or just ask to look at your local parts store) a set of rod bearings for forged and cast motor. The forged motors are much wider on the big end of the rod than the narrower cast ones. With some machining they may work (Dutra did something like this in a build called 'Twiggy) but now you're getting into cost prohibitive area...
 
Perhaps use your new engine until you get your current one rebuilt to the specs you want?

Can you do a compression check at work?

As fast as you work I bet you could swap it out in a weekend.


Mike
 
Yes i could do a compression check at my shop. I haven't seen the landlord in a few days so haven't been able to shove cash in his face and take my engine, but he'll turn up. He's always out there working on something.

I thought about taking the motor out of my car now and building that, and putting the other block in my car and driving it - but then lets say the other engine runs like butt because it's been sitting for 20 years... but I know mine runs, and it runs ok. It slings out out the valve cover seams like oil is free - BUT I know exactly how to deal with this engine. Swapping another one in would be another mystery to solve.

I'm thinking cost prohibitively as well - that I should build the 80s block to just be robust, and keep my 60s engine around till i have buku bucks to rebuild that. I'd like to say I have money to play with these things like some of the people on here, but all I can do is get what I can get. I work as a carpenter, and have family, other car to pay for, etc... I'm not complaining, just being realistic - I can't afford to build something totally awesome.

BUT I can afford to rebuild a nice engine back to good and reliable, get a nice cam grind, double roller timing chain, oversized pistons (just because why not). I feel like the machine shop will charge me the same for boring .030 as .060, so why not 60? I know it doesn't make a huge difference, and my dad stated that then I wouldn't have any more rebuilds really if there was an issue, but I have a whole nother engine. If that's the only place I can pick up even .00001HP then why not do it? It looks like I'll pass on the 198 idea for this block then, since I did read up as well and found the bearings and everything are different for the different cranks. But that's ok, like I said - make a really good engine here, and strap a turbo to it, and I believe it will be better than the 47 year old engine in it right now that's never been rebuilt with mysterious overheating issues.

I built my current turbo setup with the motor in the car, and just think of how much nicer I can make it with the engine in a non-restricted environment? That's what I plan to do.

Then I can set the 60s engine aside, and build it later.

My plan is to build this new motor, then pull the old one on a friday, scrape the whole engine bay down, and get it ready for paint, move some wiring around, spray it Saturday (turbine bronze) and then put the engine in Sunday.

Also my color scheme may be a bit weird for the new motor, but I have seen a lot of red, blue, orange slants, and even saw a purple and green one after I tried that too. I am thinking of a White engine block and head, with copper valve cover, Black intake and exhaust, Copper oil pan, and some really really good sealing so that oil doesn't mess it up. No chrome. I know, I'm weird.
 
Dave,

That all makes good sense.

I once did a weekend swap without even going over of the engine. Turned out it had a flattened cam lobe. While I set a personal best for engine swapping it really backfired on me.

I will keep my eyes out for parts for your build. I did find a best offer a couple years back on the rods for around $300. if I recall correctly. I don't think we will get that lucky again but deals do come along from time to time.

Like the color scheme idea. Look forward to seeing it.

Mike

Serj22 said:
Yes i could do a compression check at my shop. I haven't seen the landlord in a few days so haven't been able to shove cash in his face and take my engine, but he'll turn up. He's always out there working on something.

I thought about taking the motor out of my car now and building that, and putting the other block in my car and driving it - but then lets say the other engine runs like butt because it's been sitting for 20 years... but I know mine runs, and it runs ok. It slings out out the valve cover seams like oil is free - BUT I know exactly how to deal with this engine. Swapping another one in would be another mystery to solve.

I'm thinking cost prohibitively as well - that I should build the 80s block to just be robust, and keep my 60s engine around till i have buku bucks to rebuild that. I'd like to say I have money to play with these things like some of the people on here, but all I can do is get what I can get. I work as a carpenter, and have family, other car to pay for, etc... I'm not complaining, just being realistic - I can't afford to build something totally awesome.

BUT I can afford to rebuild a nice engine back to good and reliable, get a nice cam grind, double roller timing chain, oversized pistons (just because why not). I feel like the machine shop will charge me the same for boring .030 as .060, so why not 60? I know it doesn't make a huge difference, and my dad stated that then I wouldn't have any more rebuilds really if there was an issue, but I have a whole nother engine. If that's the only place I can pick up even .00001HP then why not do it? It looks like I'll pass on the 198 idea for this block then, since I did read up as well and found the bearings and everything are different for the different cranks. But that's ok, like I said - make a really good engine here, and strap a turbo to it, and I believe it will be better than the 47 year old engine in it right now that's never been rebuilt with mysterious overheating issues.

I built my current turbo setup with the motor in the car, and just think of how much nicer I can make it with the engine in a non-restricted environment? That's what I plan to do.

Then I can set the 60s engine aside, and build it later.

My plan is to build this new motor, then pull the old one on a friday, scrape the whole engine bay down, and get it ready for paint, move some wiring around, spray it Saturday (turbine bronze) and then put the engine in Sunday.

Also my color scheme may be a bit weird for the new motor, but I have seen a lot of red, blue, orange slants, and even saw a purple and green one after I tried that too. I am thinking of a White engine block and head, with copper valve cover, Black intake and exhaust, Copper oil pan, and some really really good sealing so that oil doesn't mess it up. No chrome. I know, I'm weird.
Click to expand...
 
Serj22 said:
I feel like the machine shop will charge me the same for boring .030 as .060, so why not 60? I know it doesn't make a huge difference, and my dad stated that then I wouldn't have any more rebuilds really if there was an issue, but I have a whole nother engine. If that's the only place I can pick up even .00001HP then why not do it?
Click to expand...

Have you talked to your machinist to confirm the price would be the same? Usually they charge by how much they cut, I'm not sure I've seen one yet that didn't (keep in mind, there aren't many machine shops round here, so my experience is limited). Another thing: Your dad had a decent point, but you also said the forged motor would be built even higher, so that nixes that. However, the larger the bore, the weaker you will make the cylinders, and in turn the block. I wouldn't set a specific bore size, just whatever is needed. What power a bigger-than-needed bore might make would be counteracted when the bore distorts and is out of round (round bores make power)

I'm not trying to shoot holes in all your plans, I'm trying to help you make them bulletproof! :D

Oh, and your swapping plan is pretty similar to mine. I swapped out my original motor (which I believe is forged, haven't been able to confirm. Engine stand is in use!) for a built cast motor. This leaves me with a forged(?) motor to build for... whatever... if I so choose. Or I may jump the gun and drop in a roller 360. Who knows.
 
Brandon Weaver said:
Have you talked to your machinist to confirm the price would be the same? Usually they charge by how much they cut, I'm not sure I've seen one yet that didn't (keep in mind, there aren't many machine shops round here, so my experience is limited). Another thing: Your dad had a decent point, but you also said the forged motor would be built even higher, so that nixes that. However, the larger the bore, the weaker you will make the cylinders, and in turn the block. I wouldn't set a specific bore size, just whatever is needed. What power a bigger-than-needed bore might make would be counteracted when the bore distorts and is out of round (round bores make power)

I'm not trying to shoot holes in all your plans, I'm trying to help you make them bulletproof! :D

Oh, and your swapping plan is pretty similar to mine. I swapped out my original motor (which I believe is forged, haven't been able to confirm. Engine stand is in use!) for a built cast motor. This leaves me with a forged(?) motor to build for... whatever... if I so choose. Or I may jump the gun and drop in a roller 360. Who knows.
Click to expand...

The machinest I use is a friend of a close family friend who is basically like an uncle to me. He does cash rates at what i believe to be reasonable, he rebuilt my entire slant head, put brand new valves in it, new push rods, new springs, and gave me a set of brand new lifters, shaved the head, and tanked it - for $270 which I believed to be incredibly reasonable. I will ask him if it's the same price regardless to be sure. I don't want to cause a problem overboring, but we'll see what looks safe once the engine is out and I can get a good look. Maybe it has a huge hole through a bore or something? I don't know till I open it up. I think then would be the best time to see what to do maybe. I am still waiting on seeing the landlord. I want to get it before he forgets that he was going to accept $200 for the whole thing.
 
Well today I gave up on trying to figure out my overheating symptoms, and decided it's time to ditch the radiator for a new one, so I ordered a new aluminum rad. I feel whoever had the car before me was running straight water, rusted the block up pretty good inside, and then all that junk got flushed into the radiator, because it was cooling just fine for a year or so. I tried literally everything to no avail. I can drive the car for about 15 minutes before it goes up to 220 and it keeps climbing if you let it. So I tried flushing the rad, taking it out like you guys saw a few pages back, and just can not get it unclogged. Rad shop wanted $80 to deal with it, and MAYBE fix it, or $150 for a new one. The choice was obvious.
 
What do you have left to do for your HEI setup?
Everyone who has done the swap wishes they had done it sooner. Seems cheap to do.

When I was having my no start problem I started researching the HEI swap. Anything to get rid of that ballast resistor!

I just ordered one of the GM factory heat sinks and bought an Accel HEI 4 prong. Bought a coil a couple weeks ago. Need to get the connectors and relays at this point.

Serj22 said:
and since radioshack is closing up, i went in and found some heat shrink tube, and wire connectors, no flat spades like I need for the other part, but I managed to build a harness for my HEI for about $2.00.

20150601_193042_zpsp9xvni8h.jpg


As I work on this engine project as well, I'll be working on going through individual wiring circuits and replacing them with nicer ones, and tuck whatever I can.

As for above I have a t3/t4 hybrid currently while I'm still working on the garrett airreasearch turbo, which is a t3/t3
Click to expand...
 
Dave, may I have the name of your machine shop?

The shop I used for the last 25 + years closed last year and I could use the name of trustworthy shop.

Mike

Serj22 said:
The machinest I use is a friend of a close family friend who is basically like an uncle to me. He does cash rates at what i believe to be reasonable, he rebuilt my entire slant head, put brand new valves in it, new push rods, new springs, and gave me a set of brand new lifters, shaved the head, and tanked it - for $270 which I believed to be incredibly reasonable. I will ask him if it's the same price regardless to be sure. I don't want to cause a problem overboring, but we'll see what looks safe once the engine is out and I can get a good look. Maybe it has a huge hole through a bore or something? I don't know till I open it up. I think then would be the best time to see what to do maybe. I am still waiting on seeing the landlord. I want to get it before he forgets that he was going to accept $200 for the whole thing.
Click to expand...
 
CichliDart said:
Dave, may I have the name of your machine shop?

The shop I used for the last 25 + years closed last year and I could use the name of trustworthy shop.

Mike
Click to expand...

George Beavis
405 sutter Street
Beavis Machine in Vallejo

I don't know if I'd be the right guy to name drop if you go there, I usually have to re-explain how I know his place even exists every time i go there. They always help me take heavy parts out of the trunk and everything if I need it, give you a quote for how much it's going to cost, then you tell them go ahead. Then when you pick it up, it costs that much - doesn't get any better.

Also that's exactly what I bought for the heat sink and HEI module, all I literally have to do is hook it up, but I usually get pretty mad when I get home smelling oil leaking out from under the valve cover and the car overheating, so I keep putting off actually attaching everything. There's HEI running in the '74 dart we have and it works great.
 
A new part from Mishimoto arrived, and a few parts i ordered to hook it up. I am going for another sandwich adapter, this one is much better built, and I have a solution worked up for the stove pipe on the pump to not be in the way, while still retaining the pipe. Before I had to bore out the adapter, and that made it weaker than it already was and the adapter literally pulled apart from the oil pressure.



I am doing this setup with pushloc and I can see that the 6feet I got is not enough. This has to get to the bottom of the radiator support frame.

I was kind of hoping the radiator would show up today. I'm not doing this addition till the radiator comes. It will all be done in the same go.

Today I may try and hook the HEI up also.
 
Well, radiator came today, and swapped it in today. I took it for a freeway test and the results were incredibly good.

Old and new.

20150609_140251_zps7vay0fdb.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]



Oh there's the problem I figured it was...



20150609_171429_zpsefehdg1c.jpg


After 20 minutes on the freeway, that's where it was at. I'll take it. Today was a good day.
 
I guess the new motor is on hold till the owner remembers he wants to sell it. He's back to thinking about if he still wants it. It's ok, I don't have the funds yet to start machine work anyway. I can be patient with him. It also means I don't have to store it yet.

Today I received a neat package in the mail, which was three rolls of blue silicone tape. I've never used this stuff, but it sure is cool. I wanted to stiffen up the section from the intercooler to the carb hat and make it "1 piece" so it was easier to remove for valve cover removal or anything like that.

Before:



After:



The tape sticks only to itself, and to the silicone couplers. After about 2 hours it was solid. It's super cool, and I recommend it. The tube is sealed and I pressure tested it with 40 psi. It seems fine to me. No leaks. time will tell. I can still put clamps on it later if need be. I did put about 5 wraps on the whole thing, and that used up all three rolls stretched out.
 
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