Slant 6 Turbo 68Dart Project

[Bill Dedman]

Do you mind giving some of your awesomeness to us? That would be greatly appreciated.

Yeah; what he said...

 

[Serj22]

Do you mind giving some of your awesomeness to us? That would be greatly appreciated.

You guys can always ask me how to do something, and I can teach you, or if you want something weird made, I can probably make it. :glasses7:

 

[Bill Dedman]

You guys can always ask me how to do something, and I can teach you, or if you want something weird made, I can probably make it. :glasses7:

David, when I posted these (shown below) pictures of the mild-steel header that my ex-partner, Freddie, made for our turbo slant six, I got TWELVE PM's from people, asking for him to make them one!

What they didn't know was that, Freddie was 74 years old, had a 'pacemaker' and couldn't weld because of it (RF issues,) so, had to cut all the many individual pieces (cut-and-try) and use adhesive tape to hold the pieces in place until we could get them to a weld shop for tack-welding 'til they could be finish-welded (at a different weld-shop location,) after the final configurtion was decided on. Then the assembled header was driven to a T.I.G. welder for final welding. Then, it was picked up and driven to a plating service, where it was ceramic coated. All-in all, some 650 miles of hiway driving, for the completed project. This was back when gas was $4.00 a gallon...

His 2012 Charger gets about 28mpg, so that was almost a hundred dollars worth of gasoline... to get this job done, and by the time all the expenses were added up, it was very close to $1,000.00.

This was the first and only header he had ever attempted, and when asked about more, he said, "Never again!"

It is a crude, elementary design that could surely be improved upon, but to Freddie's credit, I think it looks very good for a first-effort.

I had no hand in the creation of it.

But, YOU, David, could probably figure out a way to build something like this that has easier construction methods and an effective, but simpler design and I would bet you could sell a lot of them!

Our hobby NEEDS something like that...

Think about it, PLEASE...rayer:rayer:rayer:

You could do it...:cheers:

 

[MuuMuu101]

You guys can always ask me how to do something, and I can teach you, or if you want something weird made, I can probably make it. :glasses7:

I've got some ideas for my next project... I'll let you know whenever I get it. Lol.

 

[Serj22]

Our hobby NEEDS something like that...

Think about it, PLEASE...rayer:rayer:rayer:

You could do it...:cheers:

You know bill, I've been thinking about it, and had an idea for castings as well, and simple headers to put together. But the main problem with my ideas is $$$. I wish someone would sponsor me to do and make whatever I want for no reason and that was my job.

 

[Bill Dedman]

You know bill, I've been thinking about it, and had an idea for castings as well, and simple headers to put together. But the main problem with my ideas is $$$. I wish someone would sponsor me to do and make whatever I want for no reason and that was my job.

David, I think that if you settled on a header design and built a prototype for your Dart, someone (with money to invest,) if you explained the reason for bulding it, it could spur some meaningful activity in the event that people liked the design.

The PISHTA unit is an innovative and imaginative way to mount a turbo on an A body's slant six, as far as it goes, but there are those out there, who would like to take that next step... I just know there are...

It is not outside the realm of posibility that some moneyed individual could see your new design operating at high efficiency on your Dart, and be sufficiently impressed to decide to make up a few sets for sale.

It sounds like something that needs to happen, to me. I KNOW, that if you built it and it got the right exposure, there would be lots of folks contacting you for a set of their own!

At least, that is my best guess, based on what happened with the one Freddie built... they were coming out of the woodwork for that one, because there is NO ALTERNATIVE!

My 2-cents'... :banghead:

 

[Serj22]

Basically my idea involves a very simple setup that anyone could bolt to the slant and would fit under the stock manifold. But I haven't worked it out yet really. It's more up in my imagination than on paper at this point. I'd build 3. One would be for me, then the other two would be up for grabs I'd think.

Either way, I know it doesn't look like I'm working on this, but I promise I am. I went for a budget build and I think I accomplished that. I created a turbocharged slant in the driveway for about $1500. So that goal was definitly met - but now, I have been improving it, and with improvement comes more cost. I am basically replacing all the cheap components with more durable ones.

One of the systems i have ready to add is the oil cooler, and the 2nd line I ordered for it showed up in the mail. That system is all attached with -10an hardware.

I plan to drain the oil, setup the new improved oil sandwich system (I have figured out a way to do it unlike the original that was a total failure). Once that is set, i will of course be taking pictures of it. I like documenting everything I do, because besides those who read it whenever there's an update, someone on google is typing "slant six turbo" because they want to know how, and my slant does show up on the first page of results, and maybe that helps someone. It's one thing to say "I did this. Here it is done" and another to say "I did this... here's photos of what I did"

For example, I helped my dad replace the water pump and timing belt on his 1994 Toyota Celica and someone had posted pictures on a forum of exactly what to do to complete the whole process in dumbed down terms. That was way better than drawings in a service manual or haynes.

Anyway, back on track - once the oil is drained I will also be changing the system that bolts the oil return to the oil pan. I hunted around and located a steel -8an weld on fitting, and it will be going in place of the screw in one that turned to junk on that fateful drive. It's mostly improving on the farmer parts, with more durable and reliable ones.



I also got some 45* -8an fittings for the weld on, and for the bottom of the turbo, to replace the braided stainless and clamps i have now.

Then the other thing going in is the cooler, sandwich, and the -10 an push hoses and routing those. I may have to drill some holes in the radiator support frame, but i may have a way around that.

More to come - basically going to get oily.

 

[Bill Dedman]

Basically my idea involves a very simple setup that anyone could bolt to the slant and would fit under the stock manifold.]

David,

I'll say this; you certainly have a way of getting things done!:cheers:

I am waiting with 'bated breath to see your turbo header design; I KNOW it will be a pragmatic approach to the problem!

I'll try to control my enthusiasm 'til then. :blob:

 

[Serj22]

Well, I started taking apart the oil stuff in the car so it's been sitting in the driveway undriven for about a week, because if I start it, all the oil will shoot out, as the turbo drain is still not attached. The oil drain outlet I ordered was for the wrong turbo so it is too narrow to fit on the bottom of the turbo housing, and so I had to order a different one or I can't attach it. It's kind of a lame thing to wait on, as I can't buy one in a store obviously, so it had to be gotten online... the -an size was correct, but the bolt pattern was not...

This piece is what I'm talking about:

Once i have that back together I can drive it over to my shop and drain the oil, install the oil sandwich plate, and get back to it.

All this is coupled with the fact that i have been putting a lot of work into starting a new side business for some more money.

 

[Serj22]

Well, nothing too terribly interesting going on, but I did finally get the oil line in, and it is a huge difference, because now there is no longer any oil seeping out at the pan and being blown all over the engine bay by the engine fan. I basically took that weld-in bung, tacked it to the pan and covered the heck out of it with JB, and it's pretty sound. For the new construction engine when I finally get it, I'll be doing a thru-hull type fitting, instead of just on the outside. The screw in fitting eventually failed and started getting kicked by the crank. That may have just been bad placement on my part.

Couple that with the fact that I am trying to find somewhere to move because the neighbors here have become unbearable, and trying to start a side business, this project hasn't moved much. It's unfortunate. But I am still trying to get it done. I have not forgotten about it, and I have parts here that need to go in, just need more time!

also, check out this thing I'm trying to start, could help income-wise...
www.curtisracks.com

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Not a terribly exciting update, but I also didn't expect this to make the car stay out of commission for three days either. I still have this oil cooler ready to go in - I have a spot for it set out, and now just need a good chunk of time to drain the oil and hook it all up.

 

[Bill Dedman]

the neighbors here have become unbearable, and trying to start a side business, this project hasn't moved much. It's unfortunate. But I am still trying to get it done; need a good chunk of time to drain the oil and hook it all up.

I am sorry you have neighbors that are hard to deal with; that makes anything you try to do, doubly-difficult.

Hang in there; I've seen your capabilities.... you'll get it figured out!!!!:cheers:

I know you will...

 

[Serj22]

Boy you'd think I'd have time to just go outside and work on this... but I don't. lol. I got stopped by 3 orders for roof racks through my new side business, which will bring money to the table for this project.

The problem is, there's a member on here with a 64 Dart in Oakland, Ca which is 30 minutes south from me... with a slant six. And it's not that expensive... and i think I want that too, but don't have the money yet. I would never sell my bronze dart, never. I just want 3 darts is all.

Then I want to turbo that one too... :banghead:

 

[Matts440]

Turbo power is a sickness

 

[Bill Dedman]

:wack:

Turbo power is a sickness

One man's opinion... :???:

 

[Matts440]

Never said it was a bad thing, I have it too on my 67 dart I'm working on.
Keep up the awesome work.

 

[Bill Dedman]

Never said it was a bad thing, I have it too on my 67 dart I'm working on.
Keep up the awesome work.

Sorry, Matt... I mis-read your post!ops:

I am doing what I can, which isn't much in this heat...

But, cool weather will be here soon. Then, maybe I can accomplish something!:happy1:

 

[Matts440]

It's all good, i understand about the heat we had 111 sitting and 101 heat driving around for two days and go on a stay that high for a few more days. Love California weather lol

 

[Serj22]

I personally am excited for this El Nino thing, and am sick of the heat already... lol

 

[Matts440]

Amen to that, was 117 yesterday when I got in my truck at 1, but once I drove it dropped to 106. Course they are saying even with El Nino it's not going to be enough to get us out of this drought. Oh well atleast it's rain

 

[Serj22]

103 here today. I actually got some work done today. I filed out a nice spot for the oil cooler lines to pass through the radiator support frame underneath the intake tube that returns from the intercooler. So the oil cooler system is good to go in. I think another thing i want to do is add an oil pressure gauge. I've been operating without one and this would be a good time to do it. I'll ditch the idiot light and just plug in the gauge. That way I drain the oil once, do all that, change filter, and refill.

Also cool shirts came in the mail today. I'm excited. I also made my first out-of-state sale that went to Portland, OR, so if anyone's around that area you might see my stuff on top of cars out there, cause there's been 3 orders after that for the same area. lol.

 

[Serj22]

Ok. No update in a while. Tonight when I was leaving work the car smelled awfully of coolant, and when I stopped at a stop sign I could see a nice plume of smoke go up. I only had a 6 block drive to get home. I made it home. I parked and looked back. It was a nice liquid trail leading right to my house. Gosh I hope that goes away... It's a consistant stream. It's dark so I looked all over the engine bay with my phone light. I know it was spraying coolant at the turbine or U pipe because it was steaming. I saw the repair freeze plug I popped in had popped out up against the exhaust manifold. It's a rubber one. That sure didn't last long. Somehow it blew out when I revved the engine while starting the car. Not quite sure how or why that'd happen. But...


I've been putting off new engine time for too long. I have the money and in a few days I'll have a break from working. Thinking it may be the time.

But right now all I'm worried about is the trail of breadcrumbs going to my house. this is California after all.

 

[Bill Dedman]

I've been putting off new engine time for too long. I have the money and in a few days I'll have a break from working. Thinking it may be the time.

I need to mind my own business...

BUT, if I am to survive the wars that rage, constantly, inside my head, I need to say something, however irrelevant, now and then...

This may be one of those times...

You see, I am aware of the constant pull toward excellence in performance that goes on with these engine (turbocharged slant sixes.)

They start out as cannon-fodder for every Honda Civic, Toyota Camry V-6 and Honda Accord at every stoplight in the country, with quarter-mile times that would be better, measured with an hourglass; a slant six (stock) that will run in the seventeen-second bracket in the quarter-mile is a rarity. Most run about 19-seconds, or slightly better.

Enter forced-induction technology. This method of going faster works wonders for slant sixes, which happen to be blessed with one of the strongest crank/block/head infrastructures ever put in an American engine.

There are documented results of slant sixes that have survived 37 (no typo, thirty-seven) pounds of boost, without damage.

That protocol, stopping at about 28 pounds of boost, can make for an engine that has 500+ horsepower capability. That kind of power can put an A-Body well into the tens at almost 130mph (quarter-mile times.)

But, not everybody wants to go that fast... so, building a 350-horsepower engine that will push your 3000-pound A Body 12 seconds flat (with only 15 pounds of boost) becomes a "Plan B" and is probably more practical.

A car that runs 12-seconds flat will outrun, probably, 90-percent of the cars on the road, and (this 15-pound, boosted slant,) will run on pump gas, idle like a stocker, get decent mileage, and have impeccable road manners, to boot. Icing on the cake, is, that it really LIKES a 2.76:1 rear axle ratio, so hiway driving is something that this gearing lends itself to with no overdriven, top-gear, being necessary. Yes, that ratio works best on the quarter-mile drag strip, too. It also makes it possible to use the cheaper, more-plentiful, 8.25" ring gear, rear end (rather than a drop-out center-sectiion, 8.75" unit, which has become prohibitively-expensive, in recent times.)

The important part of my tirade, is, that it is not-necessarily CRITICAL that the pistons in this motor be forged, (in this 15-pound-boost, engine,) but, realistically, anybody who recognizes that "boost is addictive" will know that, once you get a taste of a 12-flat car... at some point, and, probably SOON, you're gonna want more.

The sad fact is, 15 pounds is probably pushing the limits of the stock, cast-pistons and rings already, and if you want more performance, there's nowhere to go... You can't raise the boost to 20 pounds without running the risk of breaking something... probably, something that's going to be expensive, or create a problem that is expensive.

What to do????

If you build this engine with forged pistons to begin with, you are taking a large percentage of the reciprocating assembly out of harm's way, when you (inevitably,) crank up the boost, later on.

Now, there's a catch to this...and, it is this: Wiseco makes the (forged) pistons that work well in this engine, (045"-over) and they come with "dedicated, new-style " rings.

UNFORTUNATELY, they also come with the pin-boss hole drilled for a raised location that fits the 198 rod (rod-length 7.005") and Wiseco teams-up with K-1 Rods to make the appropriate sized rod for this application. The rods ain't cheap!

I believe the rods and pistons, together, cost just a little over $1,000.00.

Now, I understand that stock 198 rods will work OK in this application, the problem being, that they are somewhat hard to find.


I think the pistons, themselves, are "only" $443.00, or, thereabouts.

The crank is usually fine with only a polishing, or a .010"-cleanup.

I have no experience with cast iron cranks, but I THINK a cast crank would work fine and last a long time in this low-boost application.


The point of all this is just this: Do whatever you CAN to get the money to build the engine with forged internals; later, on down the line, when the urge strikes you (and, it WILL) to raise the boost-level from 15 pounds to 20, you can do it and feel good about it; not live in constant fear of ruining the whole thing with boost that is beyond the capability of the pistons/rings, to live.

My car, at 3,000-pounds, total weight with driver, ran a (Wallace calculated, off its eighth-mile times,) 12 seconds, flat in the quarter, at 112mph. That's with 15 pounds of boost and a 2.76:1 gear.

I can, at a later date, raise the boost-level to 20 pounds, and then, to 25 pounds, if nothing egregious happensns. Talk's cheap; we'll see...:banghead:

 

[jungles82]

Gotta give you a hand this is a great write up and car looks great it's amazing how you worked through all the issues you hand and all the help you got on here. Do you have a parts list of everything and cost associated and possibly where you got them and the coolness factor outdoes any v8 even modern hemi stuff.

 

[Bill Dedman]

Gotta give you a hand this is a great write up and car looks great it's amazing how you worked through all the issues you hand and all the help you got on here. Do you have a parts list of everything and cost associated and possibly where you got them and the coolness factor outdoes any v8 even modern hemi stuff.

Is this question directed at the owner of the '68 Dart, or ME? I can't tell....

 

[jungles82]

To the owner for the great write up and everyone else for helping him work out the issues