Slant 6 Turbo 68Dart Project
- Thread starter Serj22
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Serj22
Well-Known Member
Sorry It's been a while guys. One of the jobs I took I worked a month on, remodeled an entire restaurant for this lady, and that was in November, and she hadn't paid at all. That set me back into using my only funds on rent and basic necessities so the internet had to take a backseat. Now I'm back up and running, the lady is paying me off in a shitty payment plan, but at least it's better than nothing.
On a good note, it's 6:30am on a Saturday. I'm awake because I made a phone call to a craigslist ad last night about a rebuilt (possibly) slant with a torqueflite attached to it for $300. Owner bought a 1940s truck with the slant retromodded into it and it had a info sheet stating "slant 6 overhauled after removal from 1974 Duster." At that point it was never fired. So I have my fingers crossed he shows up at my shop at 8am and I can unload it with one of the forklifts onto my oversized engine stand, put a tarp on it, and get to it when the sun comes out. There's no room in the shop for it till we finish varnishing a boat. Then it can go inside. The plan is to take the head off and see if it truly was rebuilt. If I see new pistons and cleanish-looking bores I'll be alright with that. I'll still be swapping a few parts either way, like the cam, etc... but I'm hoping to see what kind of info is available on it.
On a good note, it's 6:30am on a Saturday. I'm awake because I made a phone call to a craigslist ad last night about a rebuilt (possibly) slant with a torqueflite attached to it for $300. Owner bought a 1940s truck with the slant retromodded into it and it had a info sheet stating "slant 6 overhauled after removal from 1974 Duster." At that point it was never fired. So I have my fingers crossed he shows up at my shop at 8am and I can unload it with one of the forklifts onto my oversized engine stand, put a tarp on it, and get to it when the sun comes out. There's no room in the shop for it till we finish varnishing a boat. Then it can go inside. The plan is to take the head off and see if it truly was rebuilt. If I see new pistons and cleanish-looking bores I'll be alright with that. I'll still be swapping a few parts either way, like the cam, etc... but I'm hoping to see what kind of info is available on it.
Brandon Weaver
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I think I missed something along the way. Weren't you going forged? I wouldn't go through all the work of a fresh engine just to go right back to cast pistons, even on a 5psi build. Or did they fall under the few parts you'll be swapping in either way?
Serj22
Well-Known Member
I'll likely put in different pistons. What's going to happen is I thought $350 was a good deal for a really clean engine and transmission, regardless of what's in it internally, at the very least the cam and pistons are coming out. The rest I will have to take inspection as to what was done. The water pump and all the "external" stuff looks like it might warrant a replacement. The fuel pump is just coming off all together, etc... there's still a need to open the engine up.
I'm also going to try building a intake/ exhaust manifold setup while I have the engine out like this. But looking at the motor in general, it's pretty nice, and not a hydraulic head setup like the other engine I was looking at. Also, luckily he did come and drop it off, and I forklifted it out of his truck into an engine cradle. Eventually when I have a moment I'll be building a set of stands so it sits above the engine cradle where I can work on it. For now it's just stowed safely like this with styrofoam around it, and now tarped.
I'll likely put in different pistons. What's going to happen is I thought $350 was a good deal for a really clean engine and transmission, regardless of what's in it internally, at the very least the cam and pistons are coming out. The rest I will have to take inspection as to what was done. The water pump and all the "external" stuff looks like it might warrant a replacement. The fuel pump is just coming off all together, etc... there's still a need to open the engine up.
I'm also going to try building a intake/ exhaust manifold setup while I have the engine out like this. But looking at the motor in general, it's pretty nice, and not a hydraulic head setup like the other engine I was looking at. Also, luckily he did come and drop it off, and I forklifted it out of his truck into an engine cradle. Eventually when I have a moment I'll be building a set of stands so it sits above the engine cradle where I can work on it. For now it's just stowed safely like this with styrofoam around it, and now tarped.
David,
I'm glad to learn that you're finally getting paid for the work you did on that remodeling job. It's very depressing to make the considerable effort to do something like that and not get paid. One of life's little lessons, learned... (If possible, next time, get the money "up-front.)
I am happy to hear that you will consider a forged reciprocating assemble for the new motor. That will provide benefits for as long as you have the motor. Being able to run 20 pounds of boost willl make a holy terror out of your Dart and most V-8s will not be a problem any more...
One thing I would heartily recommend; A part of this cylinder-sealing at higher boost levels is effective head gasket tech. O-Rings become a necessity. Most folks (but, not me,) use a 1-piece, copper gasket along with the O-Rings, and, that may well be the best course of action. I don't have any advice on that score, but, I didn't install the O-Rings when I initially built the short block; I waited until the engine was in the car, and had been run for awhile. There's a long atory as to why I did it that way, but, suffice it to say that, that was big mistake, because it is SO MUCH EASIER to do the O-Rings when you are doing the piston/rod installation... believe me. I caused it to be a lot harder than it would have been, by doing it the way I did...
Iskenderian will rent the cutter to you; you don't have to buy it, and, it's pretty much fool-proof (I hod no trouble cutting quickly and accurately with it, for instance, and I have ten thumbs...) The cutter it comes with automatically sets the depth and width of the groove, so, you cannot do it wrong. All you have to set is the diameter of the circle. It also comes with O-Ring wire (copper.)
Do yourself a favor and rent this tool; you'll be glad you did! Just my 2-cents'....:cheers:
Serj22
Well-Known Member
Well ever since I started being my own boss, I figured I'd have some time off, but it's really hard to say no to a remodel, or custom furniture, because it's money, and as long as I keep them strung together, I have a consistant supply of money, which is good. SO for now I'm really waiting on a lull in work, but for right now I'm in high demand for at least the next three weeks.
That does still leave the weekends though...
As for progress, the engine's still sitting in a crummy stand outside the shop, and I need to build a better stand for it. After that, I'll move it over to that one with a forklift and get working on it removing all the tidbits that won't be re-used - specifically the fuel pump, broken engine mounts, intake/exhaust, water pump (just looks bad), 6 blade weird flex fan, and the valve cover so that can be modified.
I have big plans for the valve cover that will be used as a part of the turbo system, which will be apparent later.
I did, however receive my flanges that I ordered in the mail, so now when I can find some piping, I have a welder that is on standby to create whatever I want. I already showed him the drawings and he's on board. It's gonna be a bit different, but it'll work good.
That does still leave the weekends though...
As for progress, the engine's still sitting in a crummy stand outside the shop, and I need to build a better stand for it. After that, I'll move it over to that one with a forklift and get working on it removing all the tidbits that won't be re-used - specifically the fuel pump, broken engine mounts, intake/exhaust, water pump (just looks bad), 6 blade weird flex fan, and the valve cover so that can be modified.
I have big plans for the valve cover that will be used as a part of the turbo system, which will be apparent later.
I did, however receive my flanges that I ordered in the mail, so now when I can find some piping, I have a welder that is on standby to create whatever I want. I already showed him the drawings and he's on board. It's gonna be a bit different, but it'll work good.
CichliDart
Well, where is it now?
David,
Really looking forward to seeing what you have have in store.
I know money does not grow on trees but have you checked "Offerup" yet? I occasionally see deals on there. While they do not have any cheap stands at the moment I just found this one in Menlo Park for $60. https://offerupnow.com/item/detail/76085273/atd-model-adt-7215
Had I not bought a sturdy one recently I would have bought this one. Oh, and looks like you can make an offer on it.
I myself am wavering on my build. Found a 5.7 cheap, low miles. #-o
Look forward to your posts and good luck.
Mike
Really looking forward to seeing what you have have in store.
I know money does not grow on trees but have you checked "Offerup" yet? I occasionally see deals on there. While they do not have any cheap stands at the moment I just found this one in Menlo Park for $60. https://offerupnow.com/item/detail/76085273/atd-model-adt-7215
Had I not bought a sturdy one recently I would have bought this one. Oh, and looks like you can make an offer on it.
I myself am wavering on my build. Found a 5.7 cheap, low miles. #-o
Look forward to your posts and good luck.
Mike
Well ever since I started being my own boss, I figured I'd have some time off, but it's really hard to say no to a remodel, or custom furniture, because it's money, and as long as I keep them strung together, I have a consistant supply of money, which is good. SO for now I'm really waiting on a lull in work, but for right now I'm in high demand for at least the next three weeks.
That does still leave the weekends though...
As for progress, the engine's still sitting in a crummy stand outside the shop, and I need to build a better stand for it. After that, I'll move it over to that one with a forklift and get working on it removing all the tidbits that won't be re-used - specifically the fuel pump, broken engine mounts, intake/exhaust, water pump (just looks bad), 6 blade weird flex fan, and the valve cover so that can be modified.
I have big plans for the valve cover that will be used as a part of the turbo system, which will be apparent later.
I did, however receive my flanges that I ordered in the mail, so now when I can find some piping, I have a welder that is on standby to create whatever I want. I already showed him the drawings and he's on board. It's gonna be a bit different, but it'll work good.
Serj22
Well-Known Member
My first batch of summit stuff came in, still waiting on a few more 45s, and two hooker 3/1 collectors that turn 3 1.5" pieces into a 2.5" which is the larger bend in the box. All the U's are getting turned into 90*s basically. It's gonna be cool.
Serj22
Well-Known Member
Ok, since the "budget build" part of this build is over, there's more parts being bought. For those just tuning in, the first, I dunno - 12 -15 pages are where you'd stop if you're looking to spend less than $1500. Now we're on the - however much it kinda costs to get this done. I started with the piping for the header, and have now placed an order through summit for a Lokar kickdown (gonna do the new kickdown way simpler) ARP 220,000psi head stud kit, a new fuel pump block-off plate (since I lost the other one I bought) various fasteners and junk, and I TRIED TO GET PAINT... but I couldn't decide if I wanted to use the money I had to buy paint or buy engine parts. I feel if the car looks really nice but runs like **** that's worse than the car looking like **** but running real good. You'd know my dilemma if you saw my once beautiful paint job in person.
TO make matters worse, someone actually hit it two days ago... when it was parked downtown. They left a note and said they were eating lunch at the restaurant right next to it, the lady stood up from a table in the back I guess she saw me looking at my car. SHe just walked over to me and I saw she was like 70 years old and looked pretty upset like I was about to sue her or something. I told her it was ok as I am going to paint the car anyway and she didn't dent it, and told her to please just not hit it again, and thanks for the note, and left.
It's not terrible to any normal person, but of course to me the car is ruined.
That part I could have lived with, the chrome was always dented and mangled. I'm thinking about removing it and filling the holes in the body and flattening it out when doing the body work. I saw it on a dark gray dart race-car, but I can't find the picture again.
The actual problem is the paint is literally peeling off the car, the white roof is fading and is almost like sandpaper feeling when you touch it. Sanding scratches are visible through the paint now and it has started to make hard raised bubbles in various areas. It drives me nuts. :banghead:
Well, at least I did get some cutting done and have received the rest of my header supplies for the most part. I ordered some real nice looking gussets, which will be added to it and that will make more sense later.
Later today I'm going to see if I can drop it off to my welder who is going to make it look nice, since my welds look and probably work - like ****.
TO make matters worse, someone actually hit it two days ago... when it was parked downtown. They left a note and said they were eating lunch at the restaurant right next to it, the lady stood up from a table in the back I guess she saw me looking at my car. SHe just walked over to me and I saw she was like 70 years old and looked pretty upset like I was about to sue her or something. I told her it was ok as I am going to paint the car anyway and she didn't dent it, and told her to please just not hit it again, and thanks for the note, and left.
It's not terrible to any normal person, but of course to me the car is ruined.
That part I could have lived with, the chrome was always dented and mangled. I'm thinking about removing it and filling the holes in the body and flattening it out when doing the body work. I saw it on a dark gray dart race-car, but I can't find the picture again.
The actual problem is the paint is literally peeling off the car, the white roof is fading and is almost like sandpaper feeling when you touch it. Sanding scratches are visible through the paint now and it has started to make hard raised bubbles in various areas. It drives me nuts. :banghead:
Well, at least I did get some cutting done and have received the rest of my header supplies for the most part. I ordered some real nice looking gussets, which will be added to it and that will make more sense later.
Later today I'm going to see if I can drop it off to my welder who is going to make it look nice, since my welds look and probably work - like ****.
Serj22
Well-Known Member
Didn't hear from him, so I tacked the start of it together myself and started playing around with what bends I have, I may wind up with some more to make everything point more forward, or just redirect when I move to 2 1/2". Only the 90s are tacked on and the holding tube I got to leave both "headers" aligned to ease measurment. After I played with it on the engine, I noticed the flanges don't cover the gasket in two spots which would make a nice exhaust leak. So that's my review of the flanges so far - is I have to get some filler material in there welded to the flange to cover.
This is also the start of my new much better -camera.
If adjusted to cover the gaps on the gasket, then the flanges don't line up with the studs which would be more problematic and harder to deal with than just filling those two spots and grinding the back down level.
The primaries size covers about 99% of the surface area of the actual head port (that has been gasket matched previously) so it should be cool I hope. I'm leaving the actual finish work to a real welder. This is about the extent of my skill and materials for now.
This is also the start of my new much better -camera.
If adjusted to cover the gaps on the gasket, then the flanges don't line up with the studs which would be more problematic and harder to deal with than just filling those two spots and grinding the back down level.
The primaries size covers about 99% of the surface area of the actual head port (that has been gasket matched previously) so it should be cool I hope. I'm leaving the actual finish work to a real welder. This is about the extent of my skill and materials for now.
RustyPlymouth
Well-Known Member
reflex gasket.
Serj22
Well-Known Member
Well, today I got the engine off its cradle and onto a new stand, got the transmission off of course, bent the **** out of the tin cover plate... but ya know... I'll fix that or something.
So far the only surprise is once the intake was off there was water in the ports. I'm hoping it was just from the engine laying on its side in a truck for a few weeks. It just had a rag in the carb hole, laying on its side. All the freeze plugs look brand new, and the one in the main side of the engine looks brand new as well. I'm removing the head soon, and will see what we got here.
I also did a fit check of my header flange, and already saw that one leg needed to be changed, so I broke it off its tacks, and I will rotate it, then keep building - it was going to hit the water pump casting.
I may try and see if I can get a hold of 6 individual "S" bends instead of going for 12 x 90s.
I also got my ARP studs, new fuel block off, lokar cable, and some welding gussets in the mail today from Summit.
So far the only surprise is once the intake was off there was water in the ports. I'm hoping it was just from the engine laying on its side in a truck for a few weeks. It just had a rag in the carb hole, laying on its side. All the freeze plugs look brand new, and the one in the main side of the engine looks brand new as well. I'm removing the head soon, and will see what we got here.
I also did a fit check of my header flange, and already saw that one leg needed to be changed, so I broke it off its tacks, and I will rotate it, then keep building - it was going to hit the water pump casting.
I may try and see if I can get a hold of 6 individual "S" bends instead of going for 12 x 90s.
I also got my ARP studs, new fuel block off, lokar cable, and some welding gussets in the mail today from Summit.
Serj22
Well-Known Member
Alright, so I stripped the engine of all of it's external bits, and started doing some planning and work.
The builder put a 1/16" hole in the thermostat, something I also did on my current slant in the Dart. Also something I didn't notice before is one bolt was broken off in the block on the alternator bracket. It's the rear one so it doesn't really hurt anything, and it won't necessarily leak with the bolt still kinda in there. I'l probably extract it though.
The other thing I didn't notice is that there are GRade 8 bolts used almost everywhere. Clearly the builder was trying to do a nice job. The fuel pump I pulled out, and there's no oil on it - just some assembly oil from putting it together and where it touched the cam and that's it. The distributor gear was similarly clean and clear. I reached in the dizzy hole and tried to touch the cam - succeeded and it's only the assembly fluid. Dipstick is dry - nothing in there.
I'm so far feeling more and more like this was truly rebuilt - so this may be the motor I use while I build the '68 block. I'm at a situation where I say "why rebuild a rebuilt engine, why not rebuild the crappy one?"
I'm still taking it apart, I have to ensure it will handle low boost and fun.
The castings on some of the brackets kinda sucked, so I knocked off as much weird looking metal as I could, sandblasted, and repainted all of those copper.
Some of it needs to be ground off more and redone, but that's later.
I've changed the color of my slant from red, to blue, to purple, to silver, and was thinking of orange, or whatever, and it came to my mind that pretty much all of those colors I've seen a slant six in.
So I cleaned up the entire block, spent an hour or so with some compressed air, and some simple green (it wasn't that dirty) left the thermostat in and the crappy oil filter on as effective masking solutions of their respective holes, and plugged everything else up, painted over the plug tubes because I'm replacing those as well - so they served as perfect masks for the holes. The valve cover is being removed and modified so it just served as a mask for the head. After this I'll take the head off, and likely the oil pan to make my oil drains and whatnot and see what we got here. But like i said I wanted something different, so I give you....
...
...
A white slant six! Yes I know the gaskets better be in good shape.
This'll be the first White slant, with black valve cover, black intake and exhaust, and solid copper lines instead of rubber vacuum lines routed cleanly to their respective locations, with small pieces of black rubber connecting them to each port. At least it'll be the first one I've seen like that. Not saying it doesn't already exist.
The builder put a 1/16" hole in the thermostat, something I also did on my current slant in the Dart. Also something I didn't notice before is one bolt was broken off in the block on the alternator bracket. It's the rear one so it doesn't really hurt anything, and it won't necessarily leak with the bolt still kinda in there. I'l probably extract it though.
The other thing I didn't notice is that there are GRade 8 bolts used almost everywhere. Clearly the builder was trying to do a nice job. The fuel pump I pulled out, and there's no oil on it - just some assembly oil from putting it together and where it touched the cam and that's it. The distributor gear was similarly clean and clear. I reached in the dizzy hole and tried to touch the cam - succeeded and it's only the assembly fluid. Dipstick is dry - nothing in there.
I'm so far feeling more and more like this was truly rebuilt - so this may be the motor I use while I build the '68 block. I'm at a situation where I say "why rebuild a rebuilt engine, why not rebuild the crappy one?"
I'm still taking it apart, I have to ensure it will handle low boost and fun.
The castings on some of the brackets kinda sucked, so I knocked off as much weird looking metal as I could, sandblasted, and repainted all of those copper.
Some of it needs to be ground off more and redone, but that's later.
I've changed the color of my slant from red, to blue, to purple, to silver, and was thinking of orange, or whatever, and it came to my mind that pretty much all of those colors I've seen a slant six in.
So I cleaned up the entire block, spent an hour or so with some compressed air, and some simple green (it wasn't that dirty) left the thermostat in and the crappy oil filter on as effective masking solutions of their respective holes, and plugged everything else up, painted over the plug tubes because I'm replacing those as well - so they served as perfect masks for the holes. The valve cover is being removed and modified so it just served as a mask for the head. After this I'll take the head off, and likely the oil pan to make my oil drains and whatnot and see what we got here. But like i said I wanted something different, so I give you....
...
...
A white slant six! Yes I know the gaskets better be in good shape.
This'll be the first White slant, with black valve cover, black intake and exhaust, and solid copper lines instead of rubber vacuum lines routed cleanly to their respective locations, with small pieces of black rubber connecting them to each port. At least it'll be the first one I've seen like that. Not saying it doesn't already exist.
Serj22
Well-Known Member
Engine turns out to be bored .040 over and never fired afterwards, which is worrysome, because I don't know how long ago it was rebuilt. Time to get it onto a full stand so I can attach the transmission and a starter and try and fire it. But first, a couple things, more paint, etc... etc...
The previous also didn't bother masking the head when painting it blue, or anything.
seems like they were excited to just run it. But then never did. I also found a lot of grade 8 hardware on the slant, and bolting all the accessories on.
The previous also didn't bother masking the head when painting it blue, or anything.
seems like they were excited to just run it. But then never did. I also found a lot of grade 8 hardware on the slant, and bolting all the accessories on.
Love that white!!!! Awesome!
Matts440
Well-Known Member
Thats going to look awesome when it's all painted. The contrast will be awesome between the white, Cooper and black.
Norway-dart
Well-Known Member
Aint you very keen to find out about the camshaft? Looks like some performance build some times tho!:coffee2:
Looking good. You have probably written it but what kind of size turbo are you planing to run?
Br,Daniel
Looking good. You have probably written it but what kind of size turbo are you planing to run?
Br,Daniel
Serj22
Well-Known Member
I believe the turbo I use is a .63 but I don't remember. It's raining out so I can't really go look under the hood. It's going to be the same turbo I had on the other motor since there's nothing wrong with it. The cam I'm hoping may be stock, or close to it since boost works well with the stock one, but I may pull the cover and see if I can see what it is.
Tell me about the ARP head-studs you got. Please.
Serj22
Well-Known Member
What do you want to know? Weather they accomplish their task or not? I'll be able to tell in time. One thing I am happy about is the head was INCREDIBLY EASY to pop back on the block with them. It will make a nice addition if the head has to come off and on in the car. It's lined up and done. You also get to torque them to 85'lbs instead of 65'lbs. No head bolt stretch like i experienced on the last engine either. I had to put washers on the old head bolts in order to get it to tighten down again.
Norway-dart
Well-Known Member
Bill, today there is no problem running turbo with alot of overlap (efi) and narrow lsa say 112, it will actually make the car scream! The problem with a traditional "turbocam" is too much cylinder pressure when you up the boost to much, but for a daily driver its perfect.
If you want a scary engine, just build a hefty n/a engine and turbo it.
A rule of thumb is double the power for each 14psi boost. If you build a stocker slant with 100hp, you have 200@14psi, a 150hp na is 300@14psi.
I would have put in a moodern camshaft thats a bit hotter than stock without going to wild.
Whats the spec of the stock camshaft? Anyone?
If you want a scary engine, just build a hefty n/a engine and turbo it.
A rule of thumb is double the power for each 14psi boost. If you build a stocker slant with 100hp, you have 200@14psi, a 150hp na is 300@14psi.
I would have put in a moodern camshaft thats a bit hotter than stock without going to wild.
Whats the spec of the stock camshaft? Anyone?
When I built thid emgine...
What I did (since I was inexperienced and totally ignorant of turbos and slant sixes), was to ( as closely as I could,) build a bald-faced copy of Tom Wolfe's and Ryan Peterson's engines. None of this is my idea; I just wanted something that worked, and their engines both make over 500 horsepower, so, I just followed their lead as well as I could.
Nothing succeeds like success.
Tom took me by the hand and told me what to buy, where to get it, and how to install it. He modified my carb to blow-thru specs, built a deep oil pan for my engine, and made numerous tuning recommendations, such as total spark advance (18-degrees.) In short, he saved me months and months of blind-alley experimentation. Without his valuable advice, I'd probably still be trying to get the head on the engine! My lifetime of experience was with V-8's.... Tom's help was inaluable! Ryan also helped (a LOT,) with tuning information.
After I get this combination "dialed in" to my satisfaction and am happy with how it performs at 20+ pounds of boost, I will definitely try a longer-duration cam; your words did NOT fall on deaf ears... I am anxious for the comparison; that's what hot rodding as all about, after all..
Thanks much for the information/advice. I have an open mind on this....:cheers:
The ARP studs in my engine are studs that were bought as a"group-buy" a few years back. The "off-the-shelf" ARP studs from ARP for the slant six are, for sure, an upgrade over the stock, OEM head bolts, but the ARP "off-the-shelf" items are machined from 180,000 psi stock. The "special order, group-buy" ones we ordered were 220,000 psi. ARP had yet, another set available that were 260,000 psi, but we didn't opt for those (overkill/too expensive.)
Recently, I did some investagating and was told by Summit that the ARP studs they sell, were 220.000 psi.
Several phone calls to Summit and ARP unearthed dditional information that revealed that the studs were, in fact, 180,000 psi and that the 220,000 number was wrong.
I just wonder which set of studs you ended up with, in view of the infornation I finally discovered.
Because our group-buy was necessary for us to obtain studs made from the 220,000 stock, I thought you might want to make an effort to find out which strength you really have. It turned out that the Summit information was wrong... and that can happen.
I don't know that it really matters; they will all work, I am sure...
But, it would be nice to know....
That's why I asked. :glasses7:
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