Slantsix64
Well-Known Member
Yeah I’m down! I’ll be at the Fling
Soĺ Cal fires
- Thread starter Workingdog1
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Yes, exactly why my posts previous to the one you cherry picked stated that I recommend everyone get out of the way of a wind driven fire and draw a bigger box.
Don't make me think of you a fool. It is an elfin Forest and has timber (Mt. Laguna, Palomar Mt., Pine Vally, Cuymaca .......). For those that don't know what an elfin Forest is. Ladder fuels are ladder fuels. Manzanita, Sumac, ...... all susceptible to running crown fires. There is no part of the Cleveland National Forest that is actual desert. The Cleveland is littered with gorilla brush double overhead high, Manzanita, Sumac, Ceonothus conversions from timber (Cedar and Chariot Fires), and multiple Santa Ana prone drainages that run desert to coast.
Study the Cedar fire for just a second. How about Hauser Creek Fire. Inaja Fire ring a bell? Witch Creek Fire (44 !!! firefighters injured with shelter deployments). What did all these STAFF RIDE fires have in common? I'll spare you. Santa Ana fires that ripped through aligned drainages and killed near two dozen firefighters and a lot of public.
Remember, the Cedar Fire was Californias largest wildland fire up until 2017. It's the sixth deadliest, ninth largest and, fourth most destructive fire in California history. Now, 5th because of the Palisades and it barely tops it.
Ok. Study the Cedar Fire. exposures are not EXPONENTIALLY lower. They are fewer however that means more wildland/urban interface. The fire is going to drive toward the ocean whether it's L ******* A or the many small communities that make up San Diego County's foot hills leading to the ocean. I would argue that it's more of a chance to have firefighter loss of life in Santa Ana driven fires in wildland/urban interface than the same fire and winds in an Oakland Hills scenario, or a Palisades scenario.
Of the three Cleveland NF fires they have body count of over 36 and 22 of those were firefighters. Tell them that the Cleveland's east wind don't rip as bad as any other.
You're way short sighted on what I initially said and doubled down with your absurd claims and comparisons of a forest you have surely never fought fire in. Enlighten me with your vast knowledge of my local response area.
I hope we can still be friends but, c'mon. Santa Ana winds don't care. If it's an east/west drainage the fire is going to try like hell to get to the ocean. The San Diego River Drainage is 430 square miles and 52 miles long. It runs from the desert (BLM land!) to San Diego beaches. When conditions are ripe it will rip, anywhere from the LP to the Cleveland.
autoxcuda
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It's now not listed as an active fire. So it's out.
I'm pretty sure this is like 1/2 mile south of the actual park we use for Spring/Fall Fling. There's a "Natural wildlife area" there. AKA a bunch of wild dry brush. It was headed across Burbank ave toward dam and there's nothing there to burn.
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Thank you for making my point! Santa Ana winds don't care and not even a 6 lane freeway for a fire break works in those kinds of conditions.
There are absolutely NO "fuel management" projects that are going to do a damn thing in the face of 70+ mph winds that are aligned with topography. None of the firefighters that have DIED on the Cleveland would have been saved by "fuels management". As I'm sure you know all of those incidents are part of yearly firefighter refresher training, I've read about them every year for over 25 years now. And yes, I've lived in San Diego and I've been in the Cleveland. There's nothing special about anything that's been done there compared to anywhere else in SoCal, which is why it was so ridiculous of you to say to begin with. And yeah, if they got 70+ mph winds in the same area that the Cedar fire burned in 22 years ago the same thing would happen today, it's down to wind and topography. Maybe some of the houses rebuilt in that area would have a better shot because of improved building codes and better awareness and mitigation, but realistically you'd still lose thousands of homes, just like before. They are not weather conditions that you can fight, it's like fighting a hurricane.
I don't need to study the Cedar fire. I was already a wildland firefighter then, and my father was on the ground fighting that fire, bumping from house to house on a USFS engine trying to save structures. At the time it was my engine and most of my crew that was there, I was off duty and out of the area or I'd have been there too. I'm well aware of what happened and why.
The area of the Palisades fire is full of fire roads, hiking trails, mountain bike trails, parks, and yes, fuels management areas. Not to mention roads and houses. I used to ride my mountain bike on those trails and drive those canyon roads for fun while I was in college. You can drive a Type 3 fire engine up and down all of those ridge tops, there are already fire roads there. It just doesn't mean dick with a 70 mph wind. You can look at Google Earth and see all the fire roads, they're very obvious. Tuna Canyon Road was one of my favorite drives in my '56 Austin Healey, I'd be out there weekly when my job and college schedule allowed. It's a super tight canyon with very steep topography and it lines right up with the Santa Ana's most times.
Those canyons are not something that lend themselves to controlled burns. They're filled with chaparral, they're surrounded by multi-million dollar homes and critical infrastructure. And yeah, you'd literally have to burn them off every 2 years to keep something like what's happening now from happening, and I'm not talking about a few hundred acres here and there, it would take burning off thousands of acres on that frequency. The areas in Malibu and Topanga that the Palisades fire has burned over already and is now approaching have been burned multiple times in just the last 5 years.
Again, you can look right at all the old fire lines, this is the map without the Palisades on it, you can see all of the roads and trails on the map, all of those houses are off the roads in the areas that haven't burned recently and are the reason why controlled burns aren't an option
This is the map with the Palisades on it. It's burned through multiple older burn scars, some as recent as 3 or 4 years ago
Yes, fuels management is an issue and it will continue to be. And yes, we need more controlled burns and we need to look at how and where we build and rebuild all of these houses, because some of these areas just shouldn't have homes. But the notion that these fires can be managed or mitigated in the conditions that they're having down there right now is ridiculous, and anyone that says they could prevent things like this from happening is a complete moron. Fuels management is a multi-billion dollar operation if it's going to make a difference, and it never ends because the best fuels project in the world doesn't mean anything if you don't revisit it within 5 years. It's like painting the Golden Gate, when you get to the end you just start over. Except you're talking about millions of acres of land, owned by private citizens, private companies, the state, and the federal government. And they all have to coordinate, instead of pointing fingers at who is to blame.
remytherat
Well-Known Member
Another one just popped up in the hollywood hills and is rapidly growing. This could make things a lot worse.
Just like my wife. Just want to argue. I never challenged your point.
I'm just going to go ahead and say it. You don't have the experience or knowledge I do on wildland fire. Were you a hotshot for multiple seasons? Have you ran a fuels program? Are you Engine Boss qualified? Have you conducted hundreds of not thousands of firing and Blackburn operations?
I never said a fire like these can be managed in it's intensity and conditions. You have totally skipped past when I said that some fires savvy homeowners could prep, hold, and defend on some fires but on something like this even the fire personnel have to pull back and draw a bigger box.
Quit being annoying like a woman. Always have to be "right" and you'll cherry pick , take out of context, and read in too much. Just to ******* argue. You do realize we are basically saying the same thing on this fire behavior (wind driven and in alignment). You ARE maintaining that I said THIS fire could have been managed. That's false.
I don't give a **** that your Daddy was on a fire twuck fighting the Cedar Fire. You missed the roll, Brother. You weren't there and you'll likely never fight a Cleveland Fire. Matter of fact, it's clear to me you have never even been to the Cleveland National Forest because of your dumbass take with the desert comment. That is when you lost credibility as a firefighter in my eyes. tick to medical aids, Chief.
Aren't you a volunteer anyway or something? Oh, maybe a small town agency? I know how you retards roll on fire. The dude that got killed on the Cedar was a city firefighter trying to exist in the wildland space. Most of you guys just don't have the fortitude to come anywhere near what a Hotshot is.
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Next time you want to press me you better read my words, TWICE. You just reinforce what everyone thinks about you here. An argumentative baby.
And thank you for making MY point. You started off by implying that SD doesn't compare to how bad east wind fires can get on the Angeles. There's nothing anymore special about ANF's east/west drainages. You seem to WANT me to be saying that the Cleveland is what, more "special" ??? I was just correcting your bullshit about it being desert. None of it is desert.
mopar head
DoD Alien/Squatch slayer
Yep, it`s winter...
I'm just praying that nobody fighting these fires get injured badly or worse, & if it's discovered they were intentionally set, I'm doubling down on My open petition to burn the offenders at the stake.
Unconventional
Well-Known Member
Desert annual rainfall average ... 10"
Los Angeles Ca. annual rainfall average ... 14"
Los Angeles Ca. annual rainfall average ... 14"
Before pictures of the driveway leading to my Forest Service residence/ fire station spring 2019.
After picture of our entrance on 9/10/2019.
Notice a completely unburned Oasis?
My fire station and the residence is like two trees away, hard to see.
Almost looks as if some bad *** firefighters lit a successful backing fire and steered the 17,000 acre fire around the compound.
Here’s the fire station.
Circa 9/9/2019
Oh, wait. Some bad *** firefighters DID light a backing fire that steered the 17,000 acre Santa Ana fire around the compound! Duh!
The winds are definitely higher on the Palisades fire but this is a testament to what one (1) US Forest Service type 3 fire engine and a crew full of ex-hotshots can do. We didn’t even flow any water. Just charged the lines. It was all backing fire placed at the perfect time by smart and brave young men, most making $17 an hour.
This is my resume.
junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
welcome to FABO where the need to prove somebody else wrong eclipses any relevant or polite conversation.
I apologize for playing part in that but I clearly tried to chalk this up as miscommunication. We truly were making the same points about these types of fires but in his usual form ol’ 72 wants to argue somebody down. Whether it’s torsion bars or Santa Ana winds.
I’m just not going to take his bullshit on my subject matter expertise.
This guy plays firefighter in a little town. These types are known for being in the way on fires. He has even discredited himself all while trying to prove a weak point. He went too far (for me) saying San Diego is a desert and all that other crap to reinforce his weird *** take. Dunning Krueger effect on display.
For those who have never set foot in SoCal they will never understand. As a Surveyor you go where you have to go and will find a way. I've cut brush, trees etc. live or dead with machetes, brush hooks or if vegetation is dead ( likely ) stomp and move on.
Clients ***** about cost developing land and make a lot of money while the actual expenses for Engineering equates to about 1 % of investment.
If you want to talk/message about BS yak about poison oak, ticks, traffic hazards, working around dozers, scrapers, excavators, blasting etc.
In SoCal it's a very dynamic and challenging life that obviously most would not want. I have some stories about Idaho that could equal other BS.
Life and Mother Nature can be a ***** and no need to argue/piss and moan over should of would of could have especially from people that have no idea of our circumstances.
Just saying to folks that have no clue what is happening here and the complicated issues that residents face.
junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
and yet... you take the bait. just like the last time. and the time before. and the time before that.
you two argued about the exact same ****. it's just... tiresome.
but enjoy your discourse, whatever that may be.
also it's Kruger. just like, fyi.
We were arguing the same thing and I was clearly trying to point that out.
More context about the current wind driven fire situation: A Santa Ana fire is caused by a high pressure system in eastern California deserts. The sw part of the system spills over the mountains toward the sea all while compressing and getting hotter and dryer. It preheats and dries fuels out ahead and creates extremely low relative humidity with the PIG (probability of ignition) is usually 100%.
It doesn’t matter if the system is hitting Los Padres, Angeles, Bernardino or Cleveland. The hot air wants to move west to the ocean.
As the high pressure breaks down winds will return to onshore/offshore diurnal patterns. This is a particularly dangerous time on Santa Ana dominated fire. Personnel who were chasing fire end up getting chased when those east winds break down.
Well, I guess I dont know anything. Too stupid to spell Kruger right.
Wish I was perfect like you.
More context about the current wind driven fire situation: A Santa Ana fire is caused by a high pressure system in eastern California deserts. The sw part of the system spills over the mountains toward the sea all while compressing and getting hotter and dryer. It preheats and dries fuels out ahead and creates extremely low relative humidity with the PIG (probability of ignition) is usually 100%.
It doesn’t matter if the system is hitting Los Padres, Angeles, Bernardino or Cleveland. The hot air wants to move west to the ocean.
As the high pressure breaks down winds will return to onshore/offshore diurnal patterns. This is a particularly dangerous time on Santa Ana dominated fire. Personnel who were chasing fire end up getting chased when those east winds break down.
Well, I guess I dont know anything. Too stupid to spell Kruger right.
Wish I was perfect like you.
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junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
i am, and don't ever forget it.
Beams
Well-Known Member
And it’s spelled dessert
Beams
Well-Known Member
Beams
Well-Known Member
My family near Hollywood Hills decided to get out of town.
In all seriousness, wishing safety for folks down south.
In all seriousness, wishing safety for folks down south.
A lot of hope and prayers for everyone out there, the scale of that is unimaginable…
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