Spring/Keeper interference with Rocker

[Wyrmrider]

keep them in order
check the bottoms for convex if you get the manifold off check the cam
if you take the manifold off
if not return to regular programming

 

[Lik]

If you mean by 'de-priming' that that lifter starts to leak off, it does not seem like it should do that. The rocker may be able to put more pressure on the lifter when it is cocked, than you can by hand. But it won't hurt to replace that one rocker and see. It'll be interesting to see the shaft surface under that rocker.

You do know you can pull the lifters out with the stock heads with the right tool?

Through the distributor hole, or somewhere else? I don't see how they can get through the heads...

 

[Lik]

keep them in order
check the bottoms for convex if you get the manifold off check the cam
if you take the manifold off
if not return to regular programming

I highly doubt the surface of a lifter will be convex already, I just replaced these lifters in the fall and have about 30 miles on them. Rockers coming off now, and will post pictures.

 

[Lik]

1) Ran motor with valve cover off got it up to temp to hear noise
2) Pulled rocker shaft and checked all lifters via pushing down on push rods, NO movement

Here are some pictures:

 

[Lik]

So frustrating!! Now that the rockers are off the shaft, they all look like they have comparable wear; Upon running it this morning, that lifter (cyl 4 int) stayed primed after running, and the excessive movement was not longer there, yet the tick was.

Cam lobe being wiped out maybe?

Still waiting on the Exhaust manifold gaskets, but I'm not convinced that's the source of the nice yet

 

[66fs]

Through the distributor hole, or somewhere else? I don't see how they can get through the heads...

The lifters come out of the holes in the head. Did it all the time. Special tool grabs the grooves in the lifter and they come right out.

 

[nm9stheham]

Yes... look up 'lifter removal tool.

Check that rocker to see if there are any hairline cracks, including in the pushrod pocket.

Have you removed the pushrods and rolled them to see if they are perfectly straight? And are they the exact same length? Look at the pushrod on that lifter and see if it has any rubs marks on it, and see if it a tad shorter than the rest.

If the head gaskets are Felpro kit gaskets (thicker than stock), and head work was done and the valves 'tipped' (ground on the tips to make them equal length after valve work), and you have that rocker and shaft wear, then you could have enough changes that the wear tolerances could be stacking up and that pushrod could be juuuust a few thousands to short.

 

[Lik]

Yes... look up 'lifter removal tool.

I have a lifter removal tool, but I'm not seeing how they come out through the head openings; only way I've ever done it is through the dizzy opening, or pulling the intake.

Check that rocker to see if there are any hairline cracks, including in the pushrod pocket.

Have you removed the pushrods and rolled them to see if they are perfectly straight? And are they the exact same length? Look at the pushrod on that lifter and see if it has any rubs marks on it, and see if it a tad shorter than the rest.

All pushrods have been removed, verified straightness on a glass pane, and all pushrods are the same PN: 1450+45

If the head gaskets are Felpro kit gaskets (thicker than stock), and head work was done and the valves 'tipped' (ground on the tips to make them equal length after valve work), and you have that rocker and shaft wear, then you could have enough changes that the wear tolerances could be stacking up and that pushrod could be juuuust a few thousands to short.

This is what I'm beginning to wonder now, there is very little pre-load on a couple of the lifters....

 

[RustyRatRod]

I'm not reading this whole train wreck to find out.....but are the rocker shafts oriented correctly? They only install ONE way.

 

[pt70]

Lik; the rockers and rocker shaft look to be in very good condition. A lifter should fit in the area [space] just below and between the pushrod holes. But there might be excessive casting flash. And not all of the spaces will be big enough. Check the ball end of the pushrods, they should be shiny. The exhaust manifold gasket would cause a ticking sound.

Put it together, fire it up at an idle, and check it with a stethoscope. You'll find it.

 

[Lik]

I'm not reading this whole train wreck to find out.....but are the rocker shafts oriented correctly? They only install ONE way.

Yes, this has been verified.

To get to the point:
There is a tick noise, initially thought to be Spring/Retainer interference with the rockers: false, no new wear marks, everything is oxidized, and proves to be hand grinds.
Rockers oriented properly, shafts don't look terrible, rockers don't look terrible, pushrods are straight, lifters are staying primed, springs are not broke, shafts are torqued.

still ticks.

Exhaust gasket doesn't look happy, waiting for a new one to come in.

 

[Lik]

Lik; the rockers and rocker shaft look to be in very good condition. A lifter should fit in the area [space] just below and between the pushrod holes. But there might be excessive casting flash. And not all of the spaces will be big enough. Check the ball end of the pushrods, they should be shiny. The exhaust manifold gasket would cause a ticking sound.

Put it together, fire it up at an idle, and check it with a stethoscope. You'll find it.

Man, I've tried this and I cannot pinpoint it. Really aggravating. I'll be trying again though. AFTER new exhaust gaskets

 

[pt70]

I'd replace the nuts with stainless steel ones. And add thick small diameter washers under them. Use antiseize. Clean the threads. Half torque the nuts cold. Idle the engine till hot. Retorque the nuts in steps to spec. Cast iron doesn't like the cold.

 

[nm9stheham]

This is what I'm beginning to wonder now, there is very little pre-load on a couple of the lifters....

OK on the pushrods. Yes, that is my favorite theory right now.... running out of everything else! How things can change on the pushrod lifter side:

• Stock shim head gasket to Felpro kit head gasket: .025" on pushrod
  
• .005" wear in the rocker seat and shaft: .007" on pushrod
  
• Valves tipped .010" or new seat installed and not set at the same height (.010" is not too hard to be off) : another .007" on pushrod

So that is .039-040" change on the lifter/pushrod area without any manufacturing tolerances on the pushrods, rockers, lifters, and head castings, or wear on the pushrod tips, rocker tips or cam. And the cam base circle can be a bit small too.

So possible. Is it this? IDK.... Put that lifter on the base circle and see if the pushrod spins free. That might be a clue.

Or swap around a pair or rockers to this position temporarily and see if it gets better or worse.

 

[teringer]

did you have valve seats replaced for unleaded fuel could be a loose seat in head , does it miss when running this is a sign of a seat loose?

 

[Lik]

did you have valve seats replaced for unleaded fuel could be a loose seat in head , does it miss when running this is a sign of a seat loose?

No misfire at all; Heads were re-done 10+ years ago, I'm sure it's got newer seats in it.

 

[Lik]

Alright guys -

I installed new exhaust manifold gaskets - still ticking.

Went through once again, checking for any play in rockers after getting it up to temp, no play. All lifters are staying primed.

how much pre-load should there be on these lifters? Should I be able to spin the pushrods if the valves are closed?

I'm thinking about swapping rocker sets from one side of the motor to the other as a test, do you guys see any issues with that? Trying to isolate rockers from springs/lifters.

Thanks again.

 

[pt70]

At hot idle, pull the valve cover. If the noise gets louder, then use a stethoscope to find out where the noise is coming from. Likely a bad lifter.

 

[Stanley Blake]

Had a ticking noise in a 340 like yours, could not see anything wrong with the valve train so I checked the valve spring in the area of the noise and the spring was a little loose compared to the others so I shimmed the spring no more noise.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

Alright guys -

I installed new exhaust manifold gaskets - still ticking.

how much pre-load should there be on these lifters? Should I be able to spin the pushrods if the valves are closed?

Thanks again.

No, you should not be able to spin them.
Stethoscope luke I mentioned early on and the guy above reiterates..

 

[Lik]

No, you should not be able to spin them.
Stethoscope luke I mentioned early on and the guy above reiterates..

I've used the stethoscope, as mentioned; cannot isolate it to a single location. ALL of the pushrods can be spun by hand with the valves CLOSED, this is not normal?

 

[toolmanmike]

I've used the stethoscope, as mentioned; cannot isolate it to a single location. ALL of the pushrods can be spun by hand with the valves CLOSED, this is not normal?

With a hydraulic cam you should not be able to spin the pushrods with your finger tips. With a pair of pliers may be. There should be a half turn of preload on each. A solid lifter cam is different. They run clearance and not preload.

 

[Lik]

With a hydraulic cam you should not be able to spin the pushrods with your finger tips. With a pair of pliers may be. There should be a half turn of preload on each. A solid lifter cam is different. They run clearance and not preload.

This is a SBM 340, stock rocker (non-adjustable) / rocker shafts, hydraulic lifters, all same length pushrods. Noise started out of nowhere with 8k miles.

 

[toolmanmike]

This is a SBM 340, stock rocker (non-adjustable) / rocker shafts, hydraulic lifters, all same length pushrods. Noise started out of nowhere with 8k miles.

Just thinking outside the box. It sounds like you already replaced the lifters. Have you measured the pushrods? Stock ones are 7.500" long. Could it be whoever put the engine together changed pushrods for some reason?

 

[boilermaker]

Try some lash caps. Also try a feeler gauge to see clearance hot (valves Closed). You may not have any lifter preload on a few lifters?