Stroker 340>416 Build Advice

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I don’t think Molnars cranks or rods are made here, like most others forged in China finish machined here. Their high end stuff may be made here. $2-300 over an import crank won’t buy you a good USA made crank. My 4.125” BPE crank was forged in China, it’s been in the engine for six years and has been turned 7900, most of the time only 72-300 though.

I’m not a huge hydraulic cam fan, but if it fits what you want to do, run one. Even if you run factory stamped rockers you’ll probably need custom pushrods. I’ve seen push rods punch through even the hd MP stamped rockers.
 
My take is if you are spending close to 2k on edelbrocks than try to get trickflows, a far superior head out of the box and not just flow numbers but overall quality. You cannot use stock rockers on them due the the stands being moved from the stock location to improve the rocker location/geometry but you can get the mancini roller rockers (made by harlan sharp but very reasonably priced) and they are almost perfect geometry out of the box. Rpm air gap, solid flat tappet cam, around 10.1 compression and you should make 450 falling off a log and more depending on the cam size and your tuning skills.
 
450 easy is right with a 416 my 340 340 makes that ad it is mild TF heads did it comp 20-227-4 cam crap heavy speedpro forged pistons 11:1 comp not much else , stock forged crank 1.6 rockers you have to go with what is available these days wanted a light crank and Mahle pistons , could not find them . lucky to find the heads (thank you MR B3 I think) ?
 
According to my time slips my 410 360 based stroker made well over 450 horsepower with factory heads and factory 273 rockers...
Take that with a grain of salt....
 
Psychobob22 said:
Right now the car is at like 3200rpm or a bit higher at 60/65mph which is not preferable. Id like to get under 3k while at 65 or so. Thats part of why I am planning on taller gears to help bring it down.

So it sounds like the two major heads to choose from are trick flow or eddy? Do the trick flows need work out of the box generally?
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Are you only hearing what you want to hear?.. there's headporting gurus on here that prefer the speedmasters over the edelbrocks... For the price of the custom rockers you'll have to use and pay for to accommodate the trick flows you could buy a complete set of speedmaster heads that will accommodate your factory rockers... If you're building a 416 pump gas street engine there's almost no way of killing north of 400 horsepower...
There's a lot of people on here that like to cyber spend other people's money and I'm not one of them...
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My friend treed me that day and took the win but I came damn close to my dial time... There's something we say in the race forum... "Time slips don't lie".. well not my best time slip it's a good example of factory heads... Fortunately with the availability of aftermarket being so inexpensive these days it's almost easier to buy some aluminum heads already done... Just be aware of the horsepower rabbit hole you go down when you start buying expensive stuff... Now in order to take advantage of those great flowing trick flow heads you're going to need a bigger more radical cam.. and in order to take more advantage you're going to want the gears that you're not looking for in the rear end...
We all want is the best of both worlds where we can lay down a hard lick at the drag strip and have a car that smooth and easy to drive on the street...
Choose wisely grasshopper lol.....
 
j par said:
Are you only hearing what you want to hear?.. there's headporting gurus on here that prefer the speedmasters over the edelbrocks... For the price of the custom rockers you'll have to use and pay for to accommodate the trick flows you could buy a complete set of speedmaster heads that will accommodate your factory rockers... If you're building a 416 pump gas street engine there's almost no way of killing north of 400 horsepower...
There's a lot of people on here that like to cyber spend other people's money and I'm not one of them...
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My friend treed me that day and took the win but I came damn close to my dial time... There's something we say in the race forum... "Time slips don't lie".. well not my best time slip it's a good example of factory heads... Fortunately with the availability of aftermarket being so inexpensive these days it's almost easier to buy some aluminum heads already done... Just be aware of the horsepower rabbit hole you go down when you start buying expensive stuff... Now in order to take advantage of those great flowing trick flow heads you're going to need a bigger more radical cam.. and in order to take more advantage you're going to want the gears that you're not looking for in the rear end...
We all want is the best of both worlds where we can lay down a hard lick at the drag strip and have a car that smooth and easy to drive on the street...
Choose wisely grasshopper lol.....
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Some people have no interest in porting a head, I don't want to do it anymore either when I can get a cnc head for a few hundred bucks more. The mancini rocker package is $520, hardly exotic, and not much more than any other roller rocker arm. You do not need a "radical cam" to take advantage of the trickflow heads anymore than ported speedmasters, they flow quite well at low lifts and are not "race heads". Some people want to spend more and get better quality parts and some are on a tighter budget and shop around, its up to the op as to how he wants to spend his money and he asked for opinions which we all are giving. It's great you are offering alternatives but at the same time just need to deal in facts and not what's good for you lol.
 
I should say I have used allot of speedmaster heads and if the op is on a really tight budget I would agree with jpar and say get the cheapest pair you can (although personally I like to use a better set of springs and locks-just makes me feel better lol) and it will make power. Just got to decide what you want and what you can afford.
 
lead69 said:
Some people have no interest in porting a head, I don't want to do it anymore either when I can get a cnc head for a few hundred bucks more. The mancini rocker package is $520, hardly exotic, and not much more than any other roller rocker arm. You do not need a "radical cam" to take advantage of the trickflow heads anymore than ported speedmasters, they flow quite well at low lifts and are not "race heads". Some people want to spend more and get better quality parts and some are on a tighter budget and shop around, its up to the op as to how he wants to spend his money and he asked for opinions which we all are giving. It's great you are offering alternatives but at the same time just need to deal in facts and not what's good for you lol.
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Yes I think it's great we all have a different experiences and that's the great part about this forum... People like the OP can dip into all of our experience and formulate their own opinion on what their needs are and what their budget is...
Like on another post about ignition systems I've done factory and I've done full out MSD and didn't see much difference. I've done 273 rockers and switch to Hughes 1.6:1 rockers and didn't see much difference... I've switched from 3:55 gears to 410 gears and didn't see much difference lol... I'm switched from factory heads to aluminum heads and didn't see much difference... LOL..
With all of your experience and all of my experience mixed together I'm sure the OP will have plenty to ponder over...
 
I should say if money was no concern the trick flows would be a no-brainer I would agree with lead69...
 
rumblefish360 said:
I remember a report on how bad the speedmaster’s are, IIRC, @MOPAROFFICIAL has a few kind words on them.
:poke:

:rofl:
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Maybe I'm just fond of iron but I tell you what I think I'd rather run a set of Speedmaster Magnum heads after I do the work I do then to drop a set of out of the box sm aluminum heads onto anything.
I know that's iron to aluminum ...but, well... dried dog turds are lightweight too.
Smaller port that flows 260 with a smaller valve too boot...vs a larger port and valve that does 250 or about. The problem with a lot of these aluminum heads is they're all generic in the chamber and don't leave material that could actually help there and in the bowl. Just a toilet under the valve. Lol
They will make the power with work into them, not saying they won't. I'm saying heads with smaller ports flow with them.
 
trik flows only work with harland sharp rockers ? guess I'm fucked I'm using Hughes 1.6 roller rockers but if the Jpar God says it's so it must be , so far it worked and got 450 hp on the dyno with a340/340 no stroker and no strange noises well if a guy can get pregnant and need tampons anything is possible
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
Maybe I'm just fond of iron but I tell you what I think I'd rather run a set of Speedmaster Magnum heads after I do the work I do then to drop a set of out of the box sm aluminum heads onto anything.
I know that's iron to aluminum ...but, well... dried dog turds are lightweight too.
Smaller port that flows 260 with a smaller valve too boot...vs a larger port and valve that does 250 or about. The problem with a lot of these aluminum heads is they're all generic in the chamber and don't leave material that could actually help there and in the bowl. Just a toilet under the valve. Lol
They will make the power with work into them, not saying they won't. I'm saying heads with smaller ports flow with them.
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how much would it cost mere mortals to get that level of flow out of iron heads ? I can paint a house , but paint a mona lisa ? you and PBR can take a head and make magic , takes time and effort to get there most just want to put on heads and go or pay through the nose to get it done properly
 
Nat said:
trik flows only work with harland sharp rockers ? guess I'm fucked I'm using Hughes 1.6 roller rockers but if the Jpar God says it's so it must be , so far it worked and got 450 hp on the dyno with a340/340 no stroker and no strange noises well if a guy can get pregnant and need tampons anything is possible
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Let's slow down a little...

I think he might be going off of what lead69 said in an above post about Mancini roller rocker. But I don't think he meant it as mandatory, just good value.

But from the Trick Flow instruction sheet from their website:

Another important thing to note is that these heads require certain components and others are highly recommended. These parts are listed below:
1. Required: Trick Flow Specialties Head Bolt Kit (TFS-92030) or Trick Flow Specialties Head Stud Kit (TFS-61404304)
2. Required: Harland Sharp Rocker Shaft System for Magnum applications. (S72025K or S72026K)
3. Recommended: Trick Flow Specialties Rocker Shaft Stud Kit (TFS-61400613)
4. Recommended: Harland Sharp Rocker Shaft System for LA applications. (S70025K or S70026K)​
 
autoxcuda said:
Let's slow down a little...

I think he might be going off of what lead69 said in an above post about Mancini roller rocker. But I don't think he meant it as mandatory, just good value.

But from the Trick Flow instruction sheet from their website:

Another important thing to note is that these heads require certain components and others are highly recommended. These parts are listed below:
1. Required: Trick Flow Specialties Head Bolt Kit (TFS-92030) or Trick Flow Specialties Head Stud Kit (TFS-61404304)
2. Required: Harland Sharp Rocker Shaft System for Magnum applications. (S72025K or S72026K)
3. Recommended: Trick Flow Specialties Rocker Shaft Stud Kit (TFS-61400613)
4. Recommended: Harland Sharp Rocker Shaft System for LA applications. (S70025K or S70026K)​
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You're correct I mentioned nothing about mandatory brand name rockers only the fact that you can't use your factory stamp steel on trick flows...
Also you'll never hear me talking about what somebody's happy dyno said about my engine just what my time slips say...
I've given my opinion and my suggestions and now I will go to the bottom and put this thread on unwatch so unless somebody quotes me I'm good....
 
j par said:
You're correct I mentioned nothing about mandatory brand name rockers only the fact that you can't use your factory stamp steel on trick flows...
Also you'll never hear me talking about what somebody's happy dyno said about my engine just what my time slips say...
I've given my opinion and my suggestions and now I will go to the bottom and put this thread on unwatch so unless somebody quotes me I'm good....
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Do you run factory stamped steel on your’s?
 
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Guys I want to say I appreciate the responses and teaching youre providing!

@rumblefish360 those videos were awesome. Cool to see what these things can do!

For this build I dont have unlimited budget but I am of the mindset of do it right/justice so I am heavily considering the TF heads. One thing I did notice is they are only 60cc vs 63cc/65cc that eddy has. If I did my math right that would put me right around 10.5cr. Mind you there is some small decking (not sure right now how much needs to be removed but that the block has to get based on some surface damage at one of the cylinders. If Im at 10.5 or so will I still be able to reliably run pump gas? In AZ we pretty much only have 91 octane.

@autoxcuda what did you mean about preventing early cam failure? Also you mentioned adjustable lifters which I can guess means there are solid/non-adjustable ones. Pros/cons?

@MOPAROFFICIAL I looked at the B3 Racing site. What exactly does that kit do/remedy? Is there a web store presence or is it a call/order over the phone situation?
 
I don’t have 91, just 93’or 89. So my experience is zero with that octane. For WIW, I run 93 on a 11.4-1 - 360 with the TF heads and flat top pistons at zero deck. The cam is small, which causes cylinder pressure to rise vs a larger cam. It’s 224@050, a Hyd roller.

Perhaps someone in your neck of the woods can say better. It’s all about the cylinder pressure the engine develops.

IMO, not a fact, but with the 241/247 cam used by Blue Print in the 408 stroker in the videos which are filmed in Cali, a max 91 octane state, it’ll work. Does altitude have an effect? To your benefit I think.

You can make a small adjustment to the final compression ratio with a thicker head gasket.
 
Psychobob22 said:
Guys I want to say I appreciate the responses and teaching youre providing!

@rumblefish360 those videos were awesome. Cool to see what these things can do!

For this build I dont have unlimited budget but I am of the mindset of do it right/justice so I am heavily considering the TF heads. One thing I did notice is they are only 60cc vs 63cc/65cc that eddy has. If I did my math right that would put me right around 10.5cr. Mind you there is some small decking (not sure right now how much needs to be removed but that the block has to get based on some surface damage at one of the cylinders. If Im at 10.5 or so will I still be able to reliably run pump gas? In AZ we pretty much only have 91 octane.

@autoxcuda what did you mean about preventing early cam failure? Also you mentioned adjustable lifters which I can guess means there are solid/non-adjustable ones. Pros/cons?

@MOPAROFFICIAL I looked at the B3 Racing site. What exactly does that kit do/remedy? Is there a web store presence or is it a call/order over the phone situation?
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theres issues with new cam and lifters and modern oil. People are seeing a high rate of premature failures.

solid vs hydraulic lifter. Hydraulic lifters don’t require maintenance adjustments that Solids do. Solids require adjustable rocker arms.

Adjustable roller rocker arm vs stamped steel non adjustable rockers.

don’t go over 10:1 compression with the 91 octane gas you have and the mild-ish cam you will be using and the hot weather you have in Arizona.

I run 9.7-1 measured and will ping on over 32 degrees timing. It’s got quench, combustion edges rolled smoothed for potential hot spots. My cam is 236/242 @050.

The B3 stuff is optimizing the geometry of your valve train. IMHO, not needed for what you are after and doesn’t fit your skill level.
 
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autoxcuda said:
Don’t go over 10:1 compression with the gas you have and the mild-ish cam you will be using and the hot weather you have in Arizona.
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If what you say is true what would you suggest to bring my CR down? Id have to go with the eddys or something else then?
 
Psychobob22 said:
If what you say is true what would you suggest to bring my CR down? Id have to go with the eddys or something else then?
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I wouldn't worry at all at 10.5:1 compression on 91 octane, especially with aluminum heads. As earlier stated, I run 10.12:1 with iron heads on 91 octane, and a cam with 106 degree lobe seperation angle. Tight closed chambers, quench, and dished pistons, combined with proper timing, and tuning and you will be fine. Unless you zero deck the block, I suspect your compression in reality, will come out lower than the math on the parts says it will be.

@autoxcuda my post is in no way meant to say you are incorrect, as I realized after typing, it may sound. I am mearly relating my experiences with 91 octane. My friend Murray, has a 410 stroker, with Eddy heads, and 10.5:1 compression, and a solid lifter flat tappet cam with 244 degrees duration at .050. Neither he, or I are experiencing any detonation on 91 octane, at around 3000ft.
 
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cpearce said:
I wouldn't worry at all at 10.5:1 compression on 91 octane, especially with aluminum heads. As earlier stated, I run 10.12:1 with iron heads on 91 octane, and a cam with 106 degree lobe seperation angle. Tight closed chambers, quench, and dished pistons, combined with proper timing, and tuning and you will be fine. Unless you zero deck the block, I suspect your compression in reality, will come out lower than the math on the parts says it will be.

@autoxcuda my post is in no way meant to say you are incorrect, as I realized after typing, it may sound. I am mearly relating my experiences with 91 octane. My friend Murray, has a 410 stroker, with Eddy heads, and 10.5:1 compression, and a solid lifter flat tappet cam with 244 degrees duration at .050. Neither he, or I are experiencing any detonation on 91 octane, at around 3000ft.
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I wasnt specifically planning on zero decking the block but like I mentioned the machinist will have to deck a currently unknown amount to remove some gouges that are on the head surface (was there when I bought the block unfortunately).

Here comes another newbie question: based on internet search a stock 340 had a -18 deck height (the top of the piston was above the deck) when Im getting this engine built is that a value that be changed? In my head the crank and rods set that pretty much in stone based on the fact Im getting a kit.

So if I understand dynamic cr it can be used to help a higher static cr engine have less chance of detonation? So a cam with higher durations will lower dynamic cr right?
 
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