The EFI myth

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cpearce said:
Wow, I would be very frustrated with that also. Our gas in Canada must be a little more stable, although it isn't like the old gas here either, and we don't get the constant heat here like your part of the world.
I have quite a few small engines around also, the types that get infrequent use, lawnmowers, line trimmer, chain saw, leaf blower, snowmobiles, boats, etc. I have never experienced those starting difficulties after they sit. Had my Husqvarna saw out first time of the season last week, 4 pulls and it was running. As I type this, I wish to make clear, I do not dispute your comments, just sharing mine.

I have noticed stored gasoline turn yellow after not long periods of sitting, and agree, my Dart requires a bit of cranking after sitting for a week or more.

I'm sure you are doing this already, I have found dosing the fuel with Seafoam greatly helps stabilize stored fuels, and keeping fuel systems cleaner.

Great post, again I state, if I experienced those issues, I'd be beside myself also.
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It's a challenge because I'll admit that sometimes I have no issues for a while. I don't know if it's a regional issue causes by batch differences in fuel, or vendors sometimes too. I get gas from a variety of places, but there's no clear trend.
When the weather is cooler, issues are fewer, that's for certain.
 
I really don't think these conversations are about changing minds, so much as points of view from varied perspectives. Everybody is playing the same game with a different hand of cards. If everyone was the same, and acted the same, it would be a pretty boring world. Everyone brings something good to the table, and everyone has a different skill set. I like to read these posts and attempt to catch things from the perspective of others and their experiences.
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Princess Valiant said:
Why do a lot of people keep keep talking about efi being the king of reliable and will go anywhere.

A manual choke is the king of reliability..... the only part that could break is your cable which will never happen.

A dead efi computer or sensor on the side of the highway isn't my idea of reliable.

I have never had an issue with a manual choke since I started driving, dead cold morning, I get my motor started and running good. Hot summer afternoon after a hot soak, I still get it started and running good.

How is a computer getting its electronic hands involved in everything reliable, you don't know that computer, it could be a Optimus prime gone evil. :eek::eek:

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I cannot remember the last vehicle I even had a choke on that worked. I have the ones on both Vixen and Gladys adjusted so the choke is slam open all the time. I never have needed one. Even on days under 20 degrees, they both pop right off.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I cannot remember the last vehicle I even had a choke on that worked. I have the ones on both Vixen and Gladys adjusted so the choke is slam open all the time. I never have needed one. Even on days under 20 degrees, they both pop right off.
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Yeh, but you ain't up here "close to the Arctic circle" LOLOL and Kim is IN the circle (I think)
 
"Back in the day" I DID figure out how to convert "some" carbs to a decent manual setup. The secret is to have a light spring so that the "manual" choke can still suck open a bit, and also have the fast idle work. I used to (sometimes) solder a little bracket to part of the linkage, and use TWO choke stops. I attached one choke stop to the carb link in such a way that the cable would slide through it. Use a screw and lock nut on the carb lever, carefully trim the screw length, and screw the stop on so the screw does not protrude. Then use a very light spring, not unlike a ball point pen, and put a stop out on the end of that. Hold the gas down some and set the choke. This closes the choke and sets the fast idle cam. Start 'er up. I used this in QJ and Holley QJ replacements
 
RustyRatRod said:
I cannot remember the last vehicle I even had a choke on that worked. I have the ones on both Vixen and Gladys adjusted so the choke is slam open all the time. I never have needed one. Even on days under 20 degrees, they both pop right off.
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I have a pressure washer that needs it for the first start, even in 100+ deg weather. My KTM 950 also will not start or idle w/o it if over 75 deg outside. Strangely, if it's cold I can actually get it to idle (low) w/o choke, but it won't take throttle. I'm too impatient (and the oil pressure too low under 900 rpm) to let it warm up w/o the choke - but it can't be ridden with the choke on either.
Same with an old Tecumseh ohv engine I have in my mower. The choke is needed to effectively 'prime' the engine, otherwise she no start w/o it.
My '83 W150 has a choke on the 2bbl. It's automatic, and if I try to disable it - no start, and not happy at all if I just bypass it early. Though that engine just plain pisses me off. Once started, it'll run great for the first 5 mins, then the choke comes off and it won't take throttle and dies if I try to leave from a stop. But once warm, it runs great all day no matter how long I shut if off. If I adjust the choke to come off sooner, it's worse, if I adjust to leave it on longer it's worse. I've played with everything from the time the choke is on, to the vacuum pull-off, idle mix, timing, etc, and it still just plain sucks. But I think the carb is probably just worn completely out. The accel pump never works right despite the bore in the casting looking mint and it working on my bench - but then after a 2 minutes on the engine it stops working proper. Frustrating as all get out. Looking forward to the new engine, intake, and carb that I have on the bench for it.
The weather here also plays havoc because we go from 0 all the way beyond 100F. Humidity, dryness, we get it all. In March my cars were sweating out in the barn from the humidity but last year it seemed like anything made of rubber shriveled up and died quicker than anything I owned in Tucson or Vegas.. craziness.
 
cpearce said:
I really don't think these conversations are about changing minds, so much as points of view from varied perspectives. Everybody is playing the same game with a different hand of cards. If everyone was the same, and acted the same, it would be a pretty boring world. Everyone brings something good to the table, and everyone has a different skill set. I like to read these posts and attempt to catch things from the perspective of others and their experiences.
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In theory sure but like everything else on the internet, there often are no facts, scientific evidence or first-hand experiences behind these type of statements. Take the title of the thread - "The EFI Myth". What was the point of wording it like that? To preach to the choir that EFI is not what it's made out to be? Good job, mission accomplished. Frankly, there didn't seem to be any specific instance as to why the thread was started beyond getting people to agree and/or disagree. And the tin-foil hat stuff about solar flares knocking out all computerized devices? I mean come on, really? Can't take that seriously on any level.

Besides, as we all know and understand, anecdotal evidence and/or hearsay does not 'make it thus.' In any walk of life there's always going to be those willing to try a better mousetrap and those who don't trust new technology or don't feel the need to mess with it. OK with me.

I like the EFI system on my car. Not sure what the FITech software is like but the Holley program is great. I find the graphical element of it to be very helpful. As mentioned, the data logging feature is a great tool as is the ability to make changes to the tune on the fly.

I really don't care what others do with their junk. I just prefer not to let uninformed statements go unchecked without some sort of rebuttal.
 
I will say this, the fi tech systems don't impress me. I regard them as most of the drawbacks of the carb, most of the drawbacks of the EFI, and none of the exclusive benefits of either one.

This is mostly due to the wet manifold.

The fi tech systems do deal with the vapor lock issues though
 
jos51700 said:
I will say this, the fi tech systems don't impress me. I regard them as most of the drawbacks of the carb, most of the drawbacks of the EFI, and none of the exclusive benefits of either one.

This is mostly due to the wet manifold.

The fi tech systems do deal with the vapor lock issues though
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Unless using the cheapest version, they come with ignition and timing control with a level of sophistication not found with a distributor type system. I wish it had even more settings/control, but it's still leaps and bounds beyond changing springs and bushings and stuff.

TBI does have the same wet manifold drawbacks, but that's kind of also a benefit. Some folks want the old-school look under the hood vs the most practical design possible. Which is kind of my over-arching take on EFI vs other systems: which one is 'best' depends on a lot of things.
 
rmchrgr said:
Take the title of the thread - "The EFI Myth". What was the point of wording it like that? To preach to the choir that EFI is not what it's made out to be? Good job, mission accomplished. Frankly, there didn't seem to be any specific instance as to why the thread was started beyond getting people to agree and/or disagree. And the tin-foil hat stuff about solar flares knocking out all computerized devices? I mean come on, really? Can't take that seriously on any level.
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I think the OP laid it out pretty well. Lots of folks make statements that EFI is intrinsically better without qualifying their statements or dismiss carbs as 'unreliable' or finicky when it's not always the reality.

I took OPs post as a rebuttal to those who seem to suggest an EFI install would be an 'upgrade' over a well-sorted carbureted engine.

I would agree with OP and argue that most EFI installs are not an upgrade in that particular case and would be a waste of time and money. But if there's a particular challenge the carbureted install is having, sometimes EFI can overcome it with less hassle. It certainly played out that way in my case.
 
So you guys that are running Fitech, which system did you go with and what if any issues did you have installing?
 
dukeboy_318 said:
So you guys that are running Fitech, which system did you go with and what if any issues did you have installing?
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I've had the 600 HP naturally aspirated one since before the Holley Sniper system came out... I run a Tanks Inc fuel tank, full return system, No real issues with the install, I did have an issue with the first unit, around town & driving in the mountains it was great, but if you got rolling down the highway in a steady cruise for an hour or so it would forget how to do anything but steady cruise... Accelerate & it would go lean, decelerate & it would load up.... Took me having a friend drive for a good hour steady while I viewed parameters to realize the Map sensor output would freeze.... The map sensor is built into the main body & not serviced separately.... FiTech replaced the unit no questions/no hassles.. The new unit has been flawless for about 8,000 miles so far...
 
1WildRT said:
I've had the 600 HP naturally aspirated one since before the Holley Sniper system came out... I run a Tanks Inc fuel tank, full return system, No real issues with the install, I did have an issue with the first unit, around town & driving in the mountains it was great, but if you got rolling down the highway in a steady cruise for an hour or so it would forget how to do anything but steady cruise... Accelerate & it would go lean, decelerate & it would load up.... Took me having a friend drive for a good hour steady while I viewed parameters to realize the Map sensor output would freeze.... The map sensor is built into the main body & not serviced separately.... FiTech replaced the unit no questions/no hassles.. The new unit has been flawless for about 8,000 miles so far...
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Are you running a Mopar style ignition setup or did you go something else?
 
dukeboy_318 said:
Are you running a Mopar style ignition setup or did you go something else?
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I'm running a OE single point style housing, a Petronix III & the advance I reworked years ago well before the FiTech.... FiTech says they don't know if the Pertonix III will work with their unit... I had it already, figured I'd try it & if it didn't work I have a old lean burn distributor which is a locked shaft/no advance that I could use with the FiTech timing control... Turns out the Petronix triggers the FiTech fine & I'd already spent the time getting the advance to do what I wanted so I left it alone...
 
My take. EFI is great for a daily, I want NO hazzle. I want immediate gratification. I want to just go. Thats all it is good for. I want to spend NO time on it, maybe change the oil.
My old cars are about enjoying the old car which means I know I will have issues with the carb/gas. Just part of the entire deal!
 
Kent mosby said:
Where are you going to go when the solar flares take out everything? You will not have any gas after one tank. :lol:
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....................That Russian nuke electromagnetic pulse, tho..................
 
I wonder how the earlier FiTech/Snipers compare to the later ones as far as reliability? Were they better made, had better components that the stuff made today?
 
I like the Street Demon carb on my Duster, driveability is very close to EFI. Cold starts in 10-degree(F) weather are a breeze. However eventually when I go to put on a Procharger I'm 100% going to electronic *port* fuel injection and timing control. Blow-through carbs can work well but I don't want to be worrying about changing the tune when ambient conditions change. Benefits and drawbacks to both systems.

FWIW the factory port EFI in my 93 Jeep Cherokee still worked flawlessly after 28 years and 265k miles. No carb'd vehicle can go that long without a carb rebuild or replacement. Port EFI on my 2000 Buick 3800 V6 still works great as well at 160k miles, had to replace a MAF sensor but that's $80 for a quality OE part and a 5-minute job swapping it out. And the one I replaced was the factory original as far as I could tell. Pretty impressive for a sensitive electronic device IMO.
 
When a carbureted car is "right", its only "shortcoming" if you can even call it that is it may run a little different when the weather changes. That's about it. That's an "issue" I have no problem with.
 
Carbs are junk, espically dominators. So please box up and send me all you’re junk holleys and I’ll properly dispose of them… seriously though, both have their place. I wouldn’t mind having a trick FI set up to play with on one of the cars. Todays pump gas is ****, you really need a return fuel system just to drive them around in any kind of traffics for long periods. Carbs can be made to work very well with some tricks. A/F METER, and lots of time.

this is a 1050 dominator ride, car has an 1150 on it now that runs just as clean. That’s the plug with the 1150. I can make it run leaner or richer in pretty much any rpm range. I like them in the high 13’s for cruise on a serious performance engine. Although I’ve had it go down the road in the 16’s with some smaller TSJ’s .

https://youtube.com/shorts/Au8o2RiGdKs?feature=share

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65 Dartman said:
I wonder how the earlier FiTech/Snipers compare to the later ones as far as reliability? Were they better made, had better components that the stuff made today?
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No clue but FiTech's new multi-port setup looks interesting.
 
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