The Great Pumpkin - '71 Duster
- Thread starter rmchrgr
- Start date
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abdywgn
dismantler
You're welcome! I learn from reading, seeing things done and then trying it myself. So thumbs up to you my teacher. Not many people would tell you "Oops, I goofed here". They would tell you all went together well the first time. Thanks again for the teaching/sharing lessons. Bob
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
Started on the brakes this weekend and so far things are going pretty well. I'm a nut when it comes to plumbing. I like the lines straight and sanitary. Keeping the exposed parts of the lines out of harms way is tough since there is lots of stuff in the way and the bends can get pretty complex over longer runs. Takes planning, patience and a lot of do-overs.
This time around I started with a Wilwood combination distribution block/prop valve thing. Last year I purchased a new set of (regular steel) OE lines to re-do the brakes again but I didn't get too far with them before I threw in the towel and decided to do it myself. I should have known but trying to make the OE brake line routing work with the Wilwood valve is an exercise in futility.
Last time I did the brake lines (2014 I think) I used pre-made OE-style lines with stainless fittings for 'ease of installation' but wound up altering half of them for one reason or another - frame connectors, headers, etc. I was never happy with the cobbled together result. BTW, based on my experiences with crazy leaks, I will never use stainless brake fittings again.
The main reason I used the Wilwood valve is that it gets the OE brass distribution block off the frame rail. I hated dealing with that thing, just seemed like it was in the worst place possible. Routing lines any other way except factory original was nearly impossible. Using the valve creates more room and makes successful, cleaner routing easier.
Here's the valve with the lines running off the outlets. Again, it's difficult to adapt factory-style lines to this valve.
Here's the left front line, no longer running under the frame. The existing hole in the inner fender seemed like it was there for this exact purpose.
As an aside, last summer a friend and I went to Detroit and we went to a buddy's house who also happens to be a pretty good racer. He's been doing it for a long time and has a really clean and fast car. I got to look at it up close and noticed that he ran his RF brake line around the front of the engine bay instead of across the firewall like normal. The reasoning behind that method is it keeps the line from being cut if there's a trans explosion. Additionally, a track tech guy once told me I needed to get the OE line off the firewall as well so I thought I should look into doing mine that way.
I hemmed and hawed about running it in front for months. After I got the left front line done the other day it helped me envision how the rest of the front lines should be and I went for it. Yeah, it's unusual to do it like this in a street application for sure. Now that I'm aware of it though, I see more race cars with the RF lines across the front so it's not that out of left field. It's way more work but it will be sanitary and safer in the end. I am about halfway done with it right now, have some fittings on order to complete the job.
The car is on the lift so I'm able to stand in the engine bay and take these shots.
The initial idea was to run the line under the radiator but I didn't feel comfortable with that. It will go through the firewall and run along the bottom of the radiator support opening and over to the right side. Yes, there will be more connection points and more holes in the rad support but I'm using AN fittings with 37º flares so the chances of leaks are slim to none. There will be clips to hold the lines to the sheet metal.
Started fleshing out the rear lines as well. As you may have noticed in the first pic, I put a 10lb residual pressure valve inline just off the master cylinder rear outlet. After the r.p.v. a Line Lock will be plumbed into the rear brakes. Now before anyone's head explodes, yes, a Line Lock can be be used in the rear brakes. The solenoid is plumbed in reverse so it "blocks" the rear brakes from applying as opposed to "holding" the fronts like normal. Doing it this way allows the rears to spin free while holding the car with the front brakes during a burnout. Once you finish your burnout, you release the solenoid and you have full 4 wheel brakes. The fronts do 80% of the braking in disc brake systems anyway so you have much more control. I read somewhere that Bob Mazzolini does his this way. Makes sense to me.
Here's the rear line coming off the master cylinder. It will attach to a through-frame bulkhead fitting at the cross member. I will put spring guard on it before it gets flared.
Here's the Roll Control. I made a bracket that bolts to the OE line clip tab. The switch wiring will run up through the floor.
One small concern is the proximity of the rear flex hose to the exhaust. It's a couple inches away but it's closer than I'd like. I'd like to get a heat sleeve or wrap around it. Ultimately it may be easier to use a braided line here.
More to come.
This time around I started with a Wilwood combination distribution block/prop valve thing. Last year I purchased a new set of (regular steel) OE lines to re-do the brakes again but I didn't get too far with them before I threw in the towel and decided to do it myself. I should have known but trying to make the OE brake line routing work with the Wilwood valve is an exercise in futility.
Last time I did the brake lines (2014 I think) I used pre-made OE-style lines with stainless fittings for 'ease of installation' but wound up altering half of them for one reason or another - frame connectors, headers, etc. I was never happy with the cobbled together result. BTW, based on my experiences with crazy leaks, I will never use stainless brake fittings again.
The main reason I used the Wilwood valve is that it gets the OE brass distribution block off the frame rail. I hated dealing with that thing, just seemed like it was in the worst place possible. Routing lines any other way except factory original was nearly impossible. Using the valve creates more room and makes successful, cleaner routing easier.
Here's the valve with the lines running off the outlets. Again, it's difficult to adapt factory-style lines to this valve.
Here's the left front line, no longer running under the frame. The existing hole in the inner fender seemed like it was there for this exact purpose.
As an aside, last summer a friend and I went to Detroit and we went to a buddy's house who also happens to be a pretty good racer. He's been doing it for a long time and has a really clean and fast car. I got to look at it up close and noticed that he ran his RF brake line around the front of the engine bay instead of across the firewall like normal. The reasoning behind that method is it keeps the line from being cut if there's a trans explosion. Additionally, a track tech guy once told me I needed to get the OE line off the firewall as well so I thought I should look into doing mine that way.
I hemmed and hawed about running it in front for months. After I got the left front line done the other day it helped me envision how the rest of the front lines should be and I went for it. Yeah, it's unusual to do it like this in a street application for sure. Now that I'm aware of it though, I see more race cars with the RF lines across the front so it's not that out of left field. It's way more work but it will be sanitary and safer in the end. I am about halfway done with it right now, have some fittings on order to complete the job.
The car is on the lift so I'm able to stand in the engine bay and take these shots.
The initial idea was to run the line under the radiator but I didn't feel comfortable with that. It will go through the firewall and run along the bottom of the radiator support opening and over to the right side. Yes, there will be more connection points and more holes in the rad support but I'm using AN fittings with 37º flares so the chances of leaks are slim to none. There will be clips to hold the lines to the sheet metal.
Started fleshing out the rear lines as well. As you may have noticed in the first pic, I put a 10lb residual pressure valve inline just off the master cylinder rear outlet. After the r.p.v. a Line Lock will be plumbed into the rear brakes. Now before anyone's head explodes, yes, a Line Lock can be be used in the rear brakes. The solenoid is plumbed in reverse so it "blocks" the rear brakes from applying as opposed to "holding" the fronts like normal. Doing it this way allows the rears to spin free while holding the car with the front brakes during a burnout. Once you finish your burnout, you release the solenoid and you have full 4 wheel brakes. The fronts do 80% of the braking in disc brake systems anyway so you have much more control. I read somewhere that Bob Mazzolini does his this way. Makes sense to me.
Here's the rear line coming off the master cylinder. It will attach to a through-frame bulkhead fitting at the cross member. I will put spring guard on it before it gets flared.
Here's the Roll Control. I made a bracket that bolts to the OE line clip tab. The switch wiring will run up through the floor.
One small concern is the proximity of the rear flex hose to the exhaust. It's a couple inches away but it's closer than I'd like. I'd like to get a heat sleeve or wrap around it. Ultimately it may be easier to use a braided line here.
More to come.
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
Did the rear line and Line Lock yesterday. I used most of the pre-bent line I had on hand which was much easier than bending a whole new one. I can only get 6ft. sections from my local NAPA which wouldn't have been long enough anyway.
Here's the OE line in place with factory clips.
While mocking up the Roll Control, it occurred to me I had an old B&M Line Lock sitting on my shelf so out of curiosity I dug it out and cleaned it up. It's essentially the same device as the Hurst but the B&M is a simpler and more compact arrangement which made plumbing easier. When mounted horizontally it lined up almost perfectly.
Here is the B&M Line Lock mocked in place. The wiring will run up through the floor through the existing outer bench-seat bracket stud hole. Undecided yet whether I will run the switch wiring under the carpet or under the dash.
Here's the solenoid with the rear line installed. It's protected by the frame connector. Almost like it was meant to be. Again, waiting on some more fittings to arrive to complete the job.
One thing I will mention now which I hope does not come back to bite me is that I didn't bench bleed the master cylinder before installing it. Because I have brand-new paint, I didn't want to increase the chances of getting brake fluid anywhere near it. Suppose I still could do it but it's a PITA to take it off and re-connect everything. I can gravity-bleed the system on the lift but it's probably wishful thinking that I'd get all the air out with that method. May have to bite the bullet and do it right and just be extra careful when re-installing it.
While it seems unrelated, working around the radiator opening convinced me to find another radiator. I got a Griffin universal cross-flow with AN inlet and outlet fittings. It was actually way cheaper than my existing Griffin that is supposed to have been an exact factory replacement. For a 'direct fit' radiator, it never lived up to that billing and I ended up modifying it more than once to accommodate my setup. It cools fine but the mount brackets were nowhere near factory and there were no provisions to attach a shroud. I still shake my head about that. With the electric fan it weighs a ton too, hopefully the cross flow is a bit more svelte.
As I've stated several times throughout this thread, I like to use AN fittings for plumbing where possible. Recently I've seen more and more cooling systems utilizing AN fittings and woven-type hose so I jumped on that bandwagon. Unlike regular radiator hoses, it's going to cost x amount more money to get all this stuff together - hose ends, hose, AN t-stat outlet etc. The water pump has a threaded boss already but will need an adapter. I always pause to consider that I'm paying more for a better mousetrap with this kind of stuff but I prefer to have all the plumbing connections easy to deal with and leak-free. Bottom line is that it's one less thing to worry about.
More to come.
Here's the OE line in place with factory clips.
While mocking up the Roll Control, it occurred to me I had an old B&M Line Lock sitting on my shelf so out of curiosity I dug it out and cleaned it up. It's essentially the same device as the Hurst but the B&M is a simpler and more compact arrangement which made plumbing easier. When mounted horizontally it lined up almost perfectly.
Here is the B&M Line Lock mocked in place. The wiring will run up through the floor through the existing outer bench-seat bracket stud hole. Undecided yet whether I will run the switch wiring under the carpet or under the dash.
Here's the solenoid with the rear line installed. It's protected by the frame connector. Almost like it was meant to be. Again, waiting on some more fittings to arrive to complete the job.
One thing I will mention now which I hope does not come back to bite me is that I didn't bench bleed the master cylinder before installing it. Because I have brand-new paint, I didn't want to increase the chances of getting brake fluid anywhere near it. Suppose I still could do it but it's a PITA to take it off and re-connect everything. I can gravity-bleed the system on the lift but it's probably wishful thinking that I'd get all the air out with that method. May have to bite the bullet and do it right and just be extra careful when re-installing it.
While it seems unrelated, working around the radiator opening convinced me to find another radiator. I got a Griffin universal cross-flow with AN inlet and outlet fittings. It was actually way cheaper than my existing Griffin that is supposed to have been an exact factory replacement. For a 'direct fit' radiator, it never lived up to that billing and I ended up modifying it more than once to accommodate my setup. It cools fine but the mount brackets were nowhere near factory and there were no provisions to attach a shroud. I still shake my head about that. With the electric fan it weighs a ton too, hopefully the cross flow is a bit more svelte.
As I've stated several times throughout this thread, I like to use AN fittings for plumbing where possible. Recently I've seen more and more cooling systems utilizing AN fittings and woven-type hose so I jumped on that bandwagon. Unlike regular radiator hoses, it's going to cost x amount more money to get all this stuff together - hose ends, hose, AN t-stat outlet etc. The water pump has a threaded boss already but will need an adapter. I always pause to consider that I'm paying more for a better mousetrap with this kind of stuff but I prefer to have all the plumbing connections easy to deal with and leak-free. Bottom line is that it's one less thing to worry about.
More to come.
stroked340
Well-Known Member
How come you didn't mount the line lock by the master cylinder??
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
Because it's blocking the rear brakes from applying rather than holding the fronts. When you pull into the water box, you apply the solenoid and hold the car with the brake pedal instead of pumping 3-4 times while relying on the solenoid to keep the pressure up.
It's basically the same as having it in front but you have a little more control with the pedal as opposed to having the fronts being locked. Probably best to have it on a toggle switch with a light so you don't forget to turn it off before you leave the line.
Suppose I could have put the solenoid on the inner fender apron by the master cylinder but since it's in the rear line it didn't make sense. It's pretty cluttered around that area already.
Besides, to plumb it in the front brakes (with the Wilwood valve thing) the main front line has to come out of the master cylinder port and go right to the solenoid. Then, it goes back to the front brake port (on the valve) and then out from the two outlet ports on the bottom of the valve to the left and right sides. Just seemed like a plumbing nightmare to me because everything is in close proximity already.
Make sense?
It's basically the same as having it in front but you have a little more control with the pedal as opposed to having the fronts being locked. Probably best to have it on a toggle switch with a light so you don't forget to turn it off before you leave the line.
Suppose I could have put the solenoid on the inner fender apron by the master cylinder but since it's in the rear line it didn't make sense. It's pretty cluttered around that area already.
Besides, to plumb it in the front brakes (with the Wilwood valve thing) the main front line has to come out of the master cylinder port and go right to the solenoid. Then, it goes back to the front brake port (on the valve) and then out from the two outlet ports on the bottom of the valve to the left and right sides. Just seemed like a plumbing nightmare to me because everything is in close proximity already.
Make sense?
stroked340
Well-Known Member
Hey if it works you 
NAPA sells fuel and brake line coils in 25' and I think 50' lengths. You first have to straighten it, then bend it. I've gone through a couple of those coils over the years. Oh, and they have coated and non-coated. Here in the northeast salt belt, I always get the coated. There's a reason why I'm having to replace them and it's rust.
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
More guys do it this way than you'd think!Hey if it works you
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
Yes, I know about the coils but like you said, it has to be straightened which can be a lot of work. I actually have a dedicated tubing straightener-outer tool but even with that thing it still never comes out perfectly straight especially longer lengths. I've done coils upon coils of tubing over the years whether it be fuel or brake lines and if it makes sense, I'll always opt for straight lengths if they're available.
The front lines are all coated, the rears are not. This car won't see foul weather (no wipers) and espcially not road salt. It also lives in a climate controlled garage so I'm not too worried about it rusting out.
I have direct experience with rusted out brake lines though. One day my wife took our old 2001 Cherokee to the train station to go to work and when she left that morning, it had brakes. When she got home that evening, it didn't. The front-to-rear line basically fell out of the car and there was a huge puddle of fluid underneath it. She got lucky it didn't happen while she was driving. That was in 2012 so the lines lasted a little over 11 years.
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
So as is often the case, I re-do stuff because I'm not 100% happy with the 'final product'. This time that applied to the brake lines I just did in post #428. I went to NAPA and bought a 25' coil of 3/16" line since it was me that bought the last two pieces of 6' straight tubing they had which were not restocked. I was shocked at how much it was - $50! I got the coated style which is always a little more but $2 a foot? Jeez. Either way, once the lines are in for good and short of bleeding them, the brakes will be done.
I also learned that my tubing straightener tool does in fact work OK but just takes patience and a little finesse to get the lines straight. The last time I used it I must have just been lazy/impatient. I probably ran the tubing through once or twice and it didn't really do anything and gave up on it. This time I went slow and put a little pressure on the opposite end to counteract the tension created by coiling it and that seemed to help. It did take several passes though and it's still not perfectly straight but it's passable. BTW, the price on those has gone WAAAY up. No way I would buy one now if it was that much.
As stated, I re-did the RF line. Part of it had to do with the radiator I got which is 27.5" across and takes up a lot of real estate on the radiator support. I also messed up one bend in the line towards the front which would likely have likley interfered with the bottom edge of the radiator.
I also didn't like the way the line jutted upwards over the shock tower off the master cylinder, just seemed silly to have it that way. This time it was just run straight down to the frame and then towards the front. I managed to make the bend correct where it meets the radiator support this time. There will be a -3AN union under the radiator connecting the two halves. From there the line will continue along the bottom then down the right side frame rail.
Here's the bend I referred to that I messed up but on the opposite side. I used a 3" header collector adapter to make the radius. This one is good.
This is where the union will be. I'm not finalizing anything here until I get the line secured. My initial plan was to go through the radiator support with more bulkhead fittings but the more I looked at it, the less it made sense - more connections, too involved and not necessary.
Here's the other side. I used an existing through-hole in the frame to locate the bulkhead fitting here. The bulkhead was necessary here because it would have basically been impossible to keep the line all one piece to the other side, not to mention having it end up in the right place. That's probably why the factory ran the RF line under the frame.
Here's the other side where the line goes to the caliper. It's hard to see but this bend was tricky since the bracket on the frame tilts the flex line fitting inward about 10º. It's a compound bend in a very tight space. Also had to leave enough room to get a wrench on the control arm bolt. Frankly, it looks a little weird. I may actually have to re-do it too if there's not enough room to swing a wrench. Have to remember to check that!
As mentioned previously, a bulkhead was used to get the rear line through the trans cross member. As of now, the rear line is done. You can see the bulkhead next to the torsion bar boot. I had to enlarge the existing a hole a bit to get the fitting to sit level. For whatever reason, that hole is angled upwards from front to back. It's also a stamped hole so there's extra material to remove and is right up against the floor. Got 'er done with minimal collateral damage though.
Here's the other side. To provide a flat surface for the bulkhead nut, I cut the top off a large washer so it fits under the floor.
More updates continued below.
I also learned that my tubing straightener tool does in fact work OK but just takes patience and a little finesse to get the lines straight. The last time I used it I must have just been lazy/impatient. I probably ran the tubing through once or twice and it didn't really do anything and gave up on it. This time I went slow and put a little pressure on the opposite end to counteract the tension created by coiling it and that seemed to help. It did take several passes though and it's still not perfectly straight but it's passable. BTW, the price on those has gone WAAAY up. No way I would buy one now if it was that much.
As stated, I re-did the RF line. Part of it had to do with the radiator I got which is 27.5" across and takes up a lot of real estate on the radiator support. I also messed up one bend in the line towards the front which would likely have likley interfered with the bottom edge of the radiator.
I also didn't like the way the line jutted upwards over the shock tower off the master cylinder, just seemed silly to have it that way. This time it was just run straight down to the frame and then towards the front. I managed to make the bend correct where it meets the radiator support this time. There will be a -3AN union under the radiator connecting the two halves. From there the line will continue along the bottom then down the right side frame rail.
Here's the bend I referred to that I messed up but on the opposite side. I used a 3" header collector adapter to make the radius. This one is good.
This is where the union will be. I'm not finalizing anything here until I get the line secured. My initial plan was to go through the radiator support with more bulkhead fittings but the more I looked at it, the less it made sense - more connections, too involved and not necessary.
Here's the other side. I used an existing through-hole in the frame to locate the bulkhead fitting here. The bulkhead was necessary here because it would have basically been impossible to keep the line all one piece to the other side, not to mention having it end up in the right place. That's probably why the factory ran the RF line under the frame.
Here's the other side where the line goes to the caliper. It's hard to see but this bend was tricky since the bracket on the frame tilts the flex line fitting inward about 10º. It's a compound bend in a very tight space. Also had to leave enough room to get a wrench on the control arm bolt. Frankly, it looks a little weird. I may actually have to re-do it too if there's not enough room to swing a wrench. Have to remember to check that!
As mentioned previously, a bulkhead was used to get the rear line through the trans cross member. As of now, the rear line is done. You can see the bulkhead next to the torsion bar boot. I had to enlarge the existing a hole a bit to get the fitting to sit level. For whatever reason, that hole is angled upwards from front to back. It's also a stamped hole so there's extra material to remove and is right up against the floor. Got 'er done with minimal collateral damage though.
Here's the other side. To provide a flat surface for the bulkhead nut, I cut the top off a large washer so it fits under the floor.
More updates continued below.
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rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
Work has finally begun on the wiring. I was dreading it because it's going to be a big project but I just needed to make a move on it. Long way to go but I'm glad I started on it.
First step is obviously figuring out where the individual components will be located. This includes the main harness and fuse box, EFI module, relay block, ignition box and all the associated wiring for those things. Unlike the Sniper which has the ECU in the throttle body, the Terminator system ECU is separate. It's "better" because the throttle body is basically a 4150 carb body and there are less wiring connections to the ECU in the engine compartment. This helps to reduce chances of RFI which can really mess with the program.
Problem with this is that the connections still need to make elsewhere which can be a task with limited space under the dash. It's also good to have things in close proximity so you're not running wiring all over the car. Starting this job from scratch requires some diligent planning because even if I "just made a panel" I'd still need to make sure the wiring was not being strained and all the various harness breakouts will easily reach their termination points. No lie, it's a pain in the ***. There's a lot of laying on my back looking up at the underside of the dash trying to visualize where stuff could be installed.
To get things going, I went for the low-hanging fruit and made a panel for the fuse box. Yeah, I'm losing the glove box but I never use it much anyway. I'll have to keep my reg and insurance cards somewhere else now I guess. There's no ballast resistor or stock-type voltage regulator on this car anymore either so no need to keep three of each in there.
Came out OK and it's solid. Took several hours to make it though. One day I will get my bandsaw working so I don't have to cut stuff with a 4" grinder anymore. I need a better metal brake too because for anything other than say a .062" sheet, the 30" HF unit is marginal at best. Did fair on drilling the holes but despite boxes and boxes of hardware I couldn't find four of the same 10-32 machine screws. Doh!
Here's the first attempt at making an under-dash electrical panel. It's clear that this is going to require some doing to make it all work nicely. I mocked the components up upside-down to get an idea of how things will be in the car. The plan is to bridge it across to the firewall with a 90º bend at the firewall side and attach it to the blower motor delete plate bolts that stick through inside. The top is the ignition box, the red thing is an MSD solid state relay and the other box is the Terminator X ECU.
Also took some other measurements to see where all the completed harnesses will end up. Fortunately there's not much else under the dash (no radio, no climate stuff etc.) so it shouldn't be too bad to make things sanitary.
More to come.
First step is obviously figuring out where the individual components will be located. This includes the main harness and fuse box, EFI module, relay block, ignition box and all the associated wiring for those things. Unlike the Sniper which has the ECU in the throttle body, the Terminator system ECU is separate. It's "better" because the throttle body is basically a 4150 carb body and there are less wiring connections to the ECU in the engine compartment. This helps to reduce chances of RFI which can really mess with the program.
Problem with this is that the connections still need to make elsewhere which can be a task with limited space under the dash. It's also good to have things in close proximity so you're not running wiring all over the car. Starting this job from scratch requires some diligent planning because even if I "just made a panel" I'd still need to make sure the wiring was not being strained and all the various harness breakouts will easily reach their termination points. No lie, it's a pain in the ***. There's a lot of laying on my back looking up at the underside of the dash trying to visualize where stuff could be installed.
To get things going, I went for the low-hanging fruit and made a panel for the fuse box. Yeah, I'm losing the glove box but I never use it much anyway. I'll have to keep my reg and insurance cards somewhere else now I guess. There's no ballast resistor or stock-type voltage regulator on this car anymore either so no need to keep three of each in there.
Came out OK and it's solid. Took several hours to make it though. One day I will get my bandsaw working so I don't have to cut stuff with a 4" grinder anymore. I need a better metal brake too because for anything other than say a .062" sheet, the 30" HF unit is marginal at best. Did fair on drilling the holes but despite boxes and boxes of hardware I couldn't find four of the same 10-32 machine screws. Doh!
Here's the first attempt at making an under-dash electrical panel. It's clear that this is going to require some doing to make it all work nicely. I mocked the components up upside-down to get an idea of how things will be in the car. The plan is to bridge it across to the firewall with a 90º bend at the firewall side and attach it to the blower motor delete plate bolts that stick through inside. The top is the ignition box, the red thing is an MSD solid state relay and the other box is the Terminator X ECU.
Also took some other measurements to see where all the completed harnesses will end up. Fortunately there's not much else under the dash (no radio, no climate stuff etc.) so it shouldn't be too bad to make things sanitary.
More to come.
abdywgn
dismantler
what about using the bolt here to hold an adel clamp for the line?
great work on the lines! the electrical looks scarey...only because if a fuse or bulb
doesn't fix something, I'm lost.
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
Thanks. I was actually planning on using the core support bolts to hold clamps.
For me, the most difficult part of the wiring is trying to figure out where it all should go. The electrical aspect is almost easier because there's no choices involved, it either works or doesn't. Making the panels kind of forces me into action instead of just contemplating options over and over.
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
Been a rainy couple days here which helped facilitate some progress on the wiring front. I made a panel and set the EFI components in place. Little clunky but so far it seems like it should work. Did OK drilling the holes accurately, only muffed one or two this time.
The panel essentially occupies the same space as the heater box. At the front, it will screw into the the bottom of the dash under the glove box and will span the gap between the dash frame and firewall. It's supported at the firewall by the two lower blower motor delete plate bolts. It's solid.
The initial plan was to make everything fit on the bottom side (see post #437) but there's no way that would have worked. Too cluttered, wires too short and strained, upside-down, etc. It's nice to have stuff in close proximity but it would have made the wiring a mess. Making the little shelf at the bottom of the panel for the relay module thing and putting the ignition box on the bottom were the right moves.
Once the components were in place I laid out the wiring in the car. The main focus was to make sure there was enough length to get the main harness across the dash and to the bulkhead connector. Essentially, I bundled everything up and routed it close to the way it will end up. That was a good thing to do because it confirmed that the panel was OK.
The blue tape markers on the left indicate where the harness turns towards the bulkhead and then terminates at the firewall. The wires going into the engine bay will get cut at the tape and terminated into a bulkhead connector. The wrapped up bundle in the middle there is the ignition box wiring. The only wires for the ignition that will go through the bulkhead are for the coil, evrything else goes to the ECU, fuse box or ground. The main power is supposed to go directly to the battery but I'm going to run it to the main B+ stud on the fuse box. Don't tell anyone.
Here's the other side. The empty connector on the ECU is for the main power and ground harness which is in the car. The wires that go through the grommet to the solid state relay are ECU 'output' wires that will control the electric water pump, cooling fan and fuel pump. The larger shrink tubed-bundle is the O2 sensor wiring. I broke it out of the main harness because it will route through the floor somewhere to get to the header collector. The blue tube with the red cap on it is for the internal MAP sensor. The signal comes from a vacuum port on the throttle body base plate and is connected directly to the ECU by a 3/16" vadcuum line. That's a nice feature since it eliminates the need to purchase and wire in another sensor.
Besides the FI wires, the forward light harness and whatever else that has to go through the firewall will be routed through this connector. This a Deutsch style bulkhead connector with solid contacts. The two sides twist together and lock tightly. I made a backing panel on the inside to keep the black bezel secured since it's just a hair larger than the OE bulkhead connector opening. This connector has it's limitations for sure but it's light years ahead of the old plastic part with the Packard 56 terminals.
Probably easy to see now why I was dreading this job so I'm glad to have made a dent in it. There is a ways to go but having the basic framework in place is helpful and encouraging.
More to come.
The panel essentially occupies the same space as the heater box. At the front, it will screw into the the bottom of the dash under the glove box and will span the gap between the dash frame and firewall. It's supported at the firewall by the two lower blower motor delete plate bolts. It's solid.
The initial plan was to make everything fit on the bottom side (see post #437) but there's no way that would have worked. Too cluttered, wires too short and strained, upside-down, etc. It's nice to have stuff in close proximity but it would have made the wiring a mess. Making the little shelf at the bottom of the panel for the relay module thing and putting the ignition box on the bottom were the right moves.
Once the components were in place I laid out the wiring in the car. The main focus was to make sure there was enough length to get the main harness across the dash and to the bulkhead connector. Essentially, I bundled everything up and routed it close to the way it will end up. That was a good thing to do because it confirmed that the panel was OK.
The blue tape markers on the left indicate where the harness turns towards the bulkhead and then terminates at the firewall. The wires going into the engine bay will get cut at the tape and terminated into a bulkhead connector. The wrapped up bundle in the middle there is the ignition box wiring. The only wires for the ignition that will go through the bulkhead are for the coil, evrything else goes to the ECU, fuse box or ground. The main power is supposed to go directly to the battery but I'm going to run it to the main B+ stud on the fuse box. Don't tell anyone.
Here's the other side. The empty connector on the ECU is for the main power and ground harness which is in the car. The wires that go through the grommet to the solid state relay are ECU 'output' wires that will control the electric water pump, cooling fan and fuel pump. The larger shrink tubed-bundle is the O2 sensor wiring. I broke it out of the main harness because it will route through the floor somewhere to get to the header collector. The blue tube with the red cap on it is for the internal MAP sensor. The signal comes from a vacuum port on the throttle body base plate and is connected directly to the ECU by a 3/16" vadcuum line. That's a nice feature since it eliminates the need to purchase and wire in another sensor.
Besides the FI wires, the forward light harness and whatever else that has to go through the firewall will be routed through this connector. This a Deutsch style bulkhead connector with solid contacts. The two sides twist together and lock tightly. I made a backing panel on the inside to keep the black bezel secured since it's just a hair larger than the OE bulkhead connector opening. This connector has it's limitations for sure but it's light years ahead of the old plastic part with the Packard 56 terminals.
Probably easy to see now why I was dreading this job so I'm glad to have made a dent in it. There is a ways to go but having the basic framework in place is helpful and encouraging.
More to come.
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
OK, made some good progress since my last post which was about a month go. I pretty much have the gas tank, fuel filter/regulator and associated bits and pieces in for good. Took a lot of staring at the bottom of the floor to make a decision on how to make it happen. I had been trying to avoid drilling more holes in the trunk floor but after going through a clunky bracket and looking at different locations the decision was made to break out the drill and get it done.
The reason I was trying to avoid drilling more holes is because I had already made 4 but realized that locating the filter/regulator in that particular spot would have put it about an 1 1/2" from the exhaust. Doh! (see post #415) After that first location was scrapped, I made an aluminum bracket to hang the filter on. (see post # 417) The problem with the bracket was that it still involved drilling more holes to hold it in place. Plus like I said, it was clunky and would have made plumbing it a PITA. Eventually I knew I was going to have to drill more holes no matter what so I figured out the most logical solution to this dilemma and went for it.
First off, I got some new tank straps. Holley sells these black powder coated ones for $16. I thought they were cool and look way better than my OEM ones that I painted silver like 12 years ago.
Here's the filter/regulator. It is factory set to 60psi. The filter inside is removable. There is another 10 micron filter in line before the throttle body connection. Locating the filter just off the pump outlet makes the return really short. In turn, that eliminates the need to run a separate return line from to front to back. In case you weren't sure, the line coming off the fuel pump module on the right is a vent. The two connectors are for the fuel level sender and fuel pump power and ground. They are super-cool Deutsch DT series. I will explain those below.
Here is the main feed line coming off the regulator. The angled fitting helps tuck it in nicely. The flex hose is -6AN (3/8") Aeroquip socketless. I use it for fuel and trans fluid, it's really good stuff. It's plenty far enough away from the exhaust now, like 7".
Here are the holes in the top. The first attempt is on the right. Gotta do what you gotta do sometimes.
The filter/regulator is held off the bottom of the floor and above the ribs in the pan by nylon spacers.
So here are the Deutsch connectors and pins. The pins are solid contacts. They require a specialized crimping tool which is normally around $400. I got a knock off one for less than half but it does the job. Still a lot to spend on one tool but I really like the system and will use it for more things in the future.
No, these are not an illicit substance, just electrical terminals.
This is the special Deutsch crimping tool. Here's a video of how it works.
The finished connectors are nice and tidy and don't take up a lot of real estate. Sealed too!
In other news, I am still working on the wiring. It's getting closer but I still have a bunch to do. Getting all the stuff towards the back of the car installed is a big help since I need to wire these components. Next projects in line are mounting up the remote trans cooler and radiator. The trans cooler will likely involve more hole drilling but I'm getting better at accepting that now. The radiator may need holes too but that remains to be seen. Such is life with aftermarket parts. I think once those things are in the interior needs to be sorted out but that should not be a huge deal once the wiring is done.
More to come.
The reason I was trying to avoid drilling more holes is because I had already made 4 but realized that locating the filter/regulator in that particular spot would have put it about an 1 1/2" from the exhaust. Doh! (see post #415) After that first location was scrapped, I made an aluminum bracket to hang the filter on. (see post # 417) The problem with the bracket was that it still involved drilling more holes to hold it in place. Plus like I said, it was clunky and would have made plumbing it a PITA. Eventually I knew I was going to have to drill more holes no matter what so I figured out the most logical solution to this dilemma and went for it.
First off, I got some new tank straps. Holley sells these black powder coated ones for $16. I thought they were cool and look way better than my OEM ones that I painted silver like 12 years ago.
Here's the filter/regulator. It is factory set to 60psi. The filter inside is removable. There is another 10 micron filter in line before the throttle body connection. Locating the filter just off the pump outlet makes the return really short. In turn, that eliminates the need to run a separate return line from to front to back. In case you weren't sure, the line coming off the fuel pump module on the right is a vent. The two connectors are for the fuel level sender and fuel pump power and ground. They are super-cool Deutsch DT series. I will explain those below.
Here is the main feed line coming off the regulator. The angled fitting helps tuck it in nicely. The flex hose is -6AN (3/8") Aeroquip socketless. I use it for fuel and trans fluid, it's really good stuff. It's plenty far enough away from the exhaust now, like 7".
Here are the holes in the top. The first attempt is on the right. Gotta do what you gotta do sometimes.
The filter/regulator is held off the bottom of the floor and above the ribs in the pan by nylon spacers.
So here are the Deutsch connectors and pins. The pins are solid contacts. They require a specialized crimping tool which is normally around $400. I got a knock off one for less than half but it does the job. Still a lot to spend on one tool but I really like the system and will use it for more things in the future.
No, these are not an illicit substance, just electrical terminals.
This is the special Deutsch crimping tool. Here's a video of how it works.
The finished connectors are nice and tidy and don't take up a lot of real estate. Sealed too!
In other news, I am still working on the wiring. It's getting closer but I still have a bunch to do. Getting all the stuff towards the back of the car installed is a big help since I need to wire these components. Next projects in line are mounting up the remote trans cooler and radiator. The trans cooler will likely involve more hole drilling but I'm getting better at accepting that now. The radiator may need holes too but that remains to be seen. Such is life with aftermarket parts. I think once those things are in the interior needs to be sorted out but that should not be a huge deal once the wiring is done.
More to come.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
That is clean! Nice work. Any idea what the amp rating of those connectors/terminals is? I'm curious if they'd work for a large electric fan.
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
Thanks!
I'm not sure about the amp ratings off the top of my head. There are different sizes available and some accommodate larger wires so if you're looking into it I'm sure you can find something suitable. The fuel pump is run off a relay but it's probably 15-20A? I used 14ga contacts for that wire. Most of the time you'd use 16ga for that series of connector. The contacts with the green stripe can be used safely with larger wire but still fit the smaller connector cavity. The level sender current is minimal. For my electric fan and water pump I am using Metripack 630 which can accommodate up to 10ga wire.
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
Got the remote trans cooler mounted up. Much like the fuel filter/regulator, once I got past the fact that there was no easy way to mount it without drilling holes in the floor, it didn't take much time to get it done. I have to plumb and wire it but this is where it's going to live. Under the spare tire well and behind the fuel tank is basically the only spot this thing could go though.
As is the case with everything on this car, this was not a perfect install by any stretch. It might look simple but there were hurdles. The cooler bracket on the right side is really close to the back wall of the tank, like less than 1/8". When you tighten the tank straps it pulls the tank closer to the cooler. The straps are tight enough but the nut is not all the way up. I swapped the J bolts side-to-side and tried to wiggle it as much as I could but it is what it is.
These lines are for mock up as they were some old ones I had laying around. One of the other main hassles with this deal was where the far outlet is located. It's pretty tight there behind the j-bolt but it does clear no problem. If I had a fuel cell this would have been cake but no cell so gotta do what ya gotta do.
Before hanging it, I cut out two strips of some neoprene tool box liner and glued them to the cooler bracket flanges so it wasn't right up against the floor. Should help to absorb a bit of vibration when the fan kicks on and maybe keep it from instantly destroying the paint. The cooler itself is a basic stacked-plate style but the bracket and fan are a nice design and it's pretty compact for what it is.
I'd like to be able to have the Holley ECU actuate the fan through a programmed output channel. Only caveat is that the ECU needs a 5V reference coolant temp sensor (as opposed to an older-style 12v) that can thread into a 904. I have an A&A "race prepped" case which has a couple extra ports on the right side so I should be able to install one there. I'm unsure which one would be the best though so I have to call them and ask. I also know can drill a hole for it in my pan but I'd rather not. I have a feeling that's what they're going to tell me but I'll confirm anyway.
The harness coming off the fan is just power and ground. If I can figure out the 5V sensor, that signal goes to an input channel in the ECU. It reads the temp and then sends a signal through an output channel. The signal would run to an external relay then turn the fan on at a predetermined temp and off x amount below it. It sounds complicated but it's really not.
Plumbing the lines backwards will be a PITA. Since the cooler line taps are ahead of the trans cross member I'm going to have to figure out how to get the lines through that area cleanly - there's the crossmember, exhaust etc. Right now I'm not seeing an easy way. Once beyond that point, the lines will just run along the frame connector to the rear.
Gettin' stuff done here. More to come.
As is the case with everything on this car, this was not a perfect install by any stretch. It might look simple but there were hurdles. The cooler bracket on the right side is really close to the back wall of the tank, like less than 1/8". When you tighten the tank straps it pulls the tank closer to the cooler. The straps are tight enough but the nut is not all the way up. I swapped the J bolts side-to-side and tried to wiggle it as much as I could but it is what it is.
These lines are for mock up as they were some old ones I had laying around. One of the other main hassles with this deal was where the far outlet is located. It's pretty tight there behind the j-bolt but it does clear no problem. If I had a fuel cell this would have been cake but no cell so gotta do what ya gotta do.
Before hanging it, I cut out two strips of some neoprene tool box liner and glued them to the cooler bracket flanges so it wasn't right up against the floor. Should help to absorb a bit of vibration when the fan kicks on and maybe keep it from instantly destroying the paint. The cooler itself is a basic stacked-plate style but the bracket and fan are a nice design and it's pretty compact for what it is.
I'd like to be able to have the Holley ECU actuate the fan through a programmed output channel. Only caveat is that the ECU needs a 5V reference coolant temp sensor (as opposed to an older-style 12v) that can thread into a 904. I have an A&A "race prepped" case which has a couple extra ports on the right side so I should be able to install one there. I'm unsure which one would be the best though so I have to call them and ask. I also know can drill a hole for it in my pan but I'd rather not. I have a feeling that's what they're going to tell me but I'll confirm anyway.
The harness coming off the fan is just power and ground. If I can figure out the 5V sensor, that signal goes to an input channel in the ECU. It reads the temp and then sends a signal through an output channel. The signal would run to an external relay then turn the fan on at a predetermined temp and off x amount below it. It sounds complicated but it's really not.
Plumbing the lines backwards will be a PITA. Since the cooler line taps are ahead of the trans cross member I'm going to have to figure out how to get the lines through that area cleanly - there's the crossmember, exhaust etc. Right now I'm not seeing an easy way. Once beyond that point, the lines will just run along the frame connector to the rear.
Gettin' stuff done here. More to come.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
Looks like a clean install to me. Curious though - does that fan pull or push? Also, did you take any photos of how the lines are routed and mounted?
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
I'm not 100% sure but I would think the fan is a puller. The cooler mounts to a flat surface, you wouldn't want it radiating heat onto whatever surface it's mounted to.
Lines are not done yet - that's next. I'll post pics for sure. It will be a mix of -6AN socketless and aluminum hard line.
Lines are not done yet - that's next. I'll post pics for sure. It will be a mix of -6AN socketless and aluminum hard line.
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
One small update - I got the radiator mounted. I went with a Griffin universal cross flow, part #1-56242-X. I had a Griffin "direct fit" traditional down flow before - nice part but definitely not a direct fit. At one point I had it modified to put the water pump outlet on the other side of the bottom tank which was probably not the best idea. It worked but it was a heavy mess. This new one is shorter but wider at 27 1/2". It fits but it's tight. It was also WAY cheaper.
This thing is wide!
This radiator has flanges on the top and bottom of the core which I used to mount it. I ended up destroying a couple fins in the process and I'm hoping I didn't nick any of the tubes. Sometimes I do stuff that you just shake your head at. I couldn't find my center punch but I went and started drilling anyway. I did it like 2-3 times. I'm an idiot.
These are 4 1/4" bolts. I managed to squeeze the grommets in to absorb vibration and prevent the aluminum from getting wallowed out over time.
I used existing holes in the radiator core support. Took a lot of measuring since the whole thing is not centered. There is more room on the driver's side than the passenger because the core would not be centered in the opening.
I made a bracket for the bottom and used the center radiator support bolts to hold it. It needs to be trimmed down a bit and will also need to have some spacers behind it. It works though. I might trey to figure out some rubber grommets like the top so it's not metal-to-metal.
In any event, it seems pretty solid. Other than welding triangular brackets on the tanks, I'm not sure how else I'd do this.
For the hoses, my plan is to use -AN style fittings and woven hose. There's a place called Autoplumb that sells these kinda "faux" -AN fittings. They seem to be OK and will be an easier alternative than having -16 fittings welded on. Not cheap but they increase the cool factor by a bunch which is really what counts, right?
Here's hoping that this thing is still watertight after breathing on it. More to come.
This thing is wide!
This radiator has flanges on the top and bottom of the core which I used to mount it. I ended up destroying a couple fins in the process and I'm hoping I didn't nick any of the tubes. Sometimes I do stuff that you just shake your head at. I couldn't find my center punch but I went and started drilling anyway. I did it like 2-3 times. I'm an idiot.
These are 4 1/4" bolts. I managed to squeeze the grommets in to absorb vibration and prevent the aluminum from getting wallowed out over time.
I used existing holes in the radiator core support. Took a lot of measuring since the whole thing is not centered. There is more room on the driver's side than the passenger because the core would not be centered in the opening.
I made a bracket for the bottom and used the center radiator support bolts to hold it. It needs to be trimmed down a bit and will also need to have some spacers behind it. It works though. I might trey to figure out some rubber grommets like the top so it's not metal-to-metal.
In any event, it seems pretty solid. Other than welding triangular brackets on the tanks, I'm not sure how else I'd do this.
For the hoses, my plan is to use -AN style fittings and woven hose. There's a place called Autoplumb that sells these kinda "faux" -AN fittings. They seem to be OK and will be an easier alternative than having -16 fittings welded on. Not cheap but they increase the cool factor by a bunch which is really what counts, right?
Here's hoping that this thing is still watertight after breathing on it. More to come.
abdywgn
dismantler
Thanks for all the pictures and "directions". Hope I remember all this when I get around to my project.
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
Sometimes the internet can be good for something.Thanks for all the pictures and "directions". Hope I remember all this when I get around to my project.
rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
Sooo, I have not touched this car in a few weeks. I have been under the weather since the middle of June and only these last few days I am finally getting over it. Still have some lingering symptoms but I'm almost back to 100%. I've also decided to sell my other car so I had to dedicate some time to tying up some loose ends on that one.
The next steps for the Duster will be mocking up the dash wiring harness in the car. I have to make sure things are the right length before I start cutting wirtes for the Deutsch bulkhead connector. I really can't do the engine harness until the motor is in but that should be relatively easy once the dash side is in. Getting the dash done and out of the way will be a major step forward. Most everything is just nuts and bolts after that.
In the interim, my 'new' TTI headers have shipped and should be here this week. They are essentially the exact same exct thing I had before just a different bolt pattern to attach to the cylinder head. Still impressed how fast Mr. Rumblefish picked those up.
I've also ordered a solid roller camshaft from Bullet as well. It's pretty hefty - 263/268 @ .050". I never dreamed I'd be in the big boy solid roller club but speaking to a few people more knowledgeable than myself it's not too crazy for a roller and a stroker motor with 11:1 compression. Guess we'll see what it's like!
I will admit to having a little anxiety about starting the engine when I put it all back together. It's a royal PITA to deal with 1 7/8" headers and I do not want to install them twice, especially since the steering linkage needs to come out. Right now my plan is to get the thing running on a stand with an old set of headers and a carburetor. I think this will be the best way to go about the installation since I can check for leaks, get the thing timed and make sure nothing is way out of whack. The rings will be seated already and it does not really need to be broken in with a roller cam.
The other caveat to the run stand is the eventual switch to EFI. Once the motor is in the car it will be switched to a throttle body so any tuning with a carb and smaller headers on a run stand will just be a baseline. Suppose if the motor idles and accelerates normally it should be close enough but I'm really hoping I don't run into problems with the different components.
More to come.
The next steps for the Duster will be mocking up the dash wiring harness in the car. I have to make sure things are the right length before I start cutting wirtes for the Deutsch bulkhead connector. I really can't do the engine harness until the motor is in but that should be relatively easy once the dash side is in. Getting the dash done and out of the way will be a major step forward. Most everything is just nuts and bolts after that.
In the interim, my 'new' TTI headers have shipped and should be here this week. They are essentially the exact same exct thing I had before just a different bolt pattern to attach to the cylinder head. Still impressed how fast Mr. Rumblefish picked those up.
I've also ordered a solid roller camshaft from Bullet as well. It's pretty hefty - 263/268 @ .050". I never dreamed I'd be in the big boy solid roller club but speaking to a few people more knowledgeable than myself it's not too crazy for a roller and a stroker motor with 11:1 compression. Guess we'll see what it's like!
I will admit to having a little anxiety about starting the engine when I put it all back together. It's a royal PITA to deal with 1 7/8" headers and I do not want to install them twice, especially since the steering linkage needs to come out. Right now my plan is to get the thing running on a stand with an old set of headers and a carburetor. I think this will be the best way to go about the installation since I can check for leaks, get the thing timed and make sure nothing is way out of whack. The rings will be seated already and it does not really need to be broken in with a roller cam.
The other caveat to the run stand is the eventual switch to EFI. Once the motor is in the car it will be switched to a throttle body so any tuning with a carb and smaller headers on a run stand will just be a baseline. Suppose if the motor idles and accelerates normally it should be close enough but I'm really hoping I don't run into problems with the different components.
More to come.
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