The "Throw Away 318"

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Dave_J said:
318 or 340 pistons and rings being the main differences in costs, what is the reciprocating weight savings? A set of 318 pistons and rings will weigh less... and then if you balance the crank and remove weight out for the 318 piston set, its even lighter.

If you max port the heads and use the same cams, at a MAX build of both engines, what is the HP ratings? Maybe the maxed 340 will make 20 to 25 more horses but the 318 will rap a little quicker.

A free 318 short block VS a $1000+ 340 block is the main argument here for some.
That $1000+ will go a long way on that FREE 318 block.

Someone that is PRO 340 will always find some argument to support their feelings. ;) But if you give me a 340 block I'd make a 426 stroker out of it.
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If max power is the point, a 340 would be the answer, whether stock stroke or stroked. Using the same crank and rods in either block is just a few cubes difference.
The larger bore 340 will have less valve shrouding which will help breathing. Knowing that, cam selection can compensate some along with judiscious porting.
Again I would say if you have a 340 or 360 then use it. If you have a 318, build it with the research and correct parts combination to build a strong runner and be happy.
The biggest cause of the 318's bad rep is the cam the factory installed. The Chubby 305 has a similar rep for the exact same reason.A friend had a 1980 Pontiac 2dr with the sloped back window that had the 305 4V. Pretty regular oil changes and the car lasted longer than him. 440,000km or about 243,000 miles. The plastic cam gear finally packed it in so he had an RV style cam installed with a double roller timing set. The heads were never off and it ran well. His brother has it now. So the basic engine is not the problem. Pull the stock cam and use it for lawn darts.
 
barbee6043 said:
It can be argued that the only real difference in restoring one model vs another is cost of that initial project, ie a hemi 69 Charger car vs lets say a slant Dart. Cost about the same for body/paint, interior, suspension, brakes, exhaust, tires etc!
Yep, the initial cost of each is far apart, plus finding that Hemi Charger vs the slant Dart!
So why is every guy thats into the 340, not just restoring Hemi Chargers and 426 Gen. 1 Hemi engines!!?????? OK don't be the first 340 guy to respond how you always out ran that Hemi B body cars bac:poke:k in the "day"!!!!
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OK, I won't pick on Mopowers. You realise that drag testing the early Cobras, the first were powered with the 260 that Shelby worked a bit of his magic on. This was in like manner to the HiPo 289 was increased from 271HP to 306HP. The 260 Cobras were quicker in the 1320 than the 427 cars which were more than likely equipped with 428s because when Shelby went to order the 427 side oiler engines, the NASCAR and LeMans programs had horded all available engines. So Shelby being the pretty fart smeller he was, installed the dual quad intakes on the 428 engines. The "427" cars had so much torque they went up in smoke. When you have 480 lb/ft admitted torque in a short wheelbase car of about 2400#, you could haze the tires at 100MPH by just mashing the throttle to the floor. The much admired Hemi Cudas had about 1,000# more. No arguement, those are awesome vehicles.
 
Dale Davies said:
If max power is the point, a 340 would be the answer, whether stock stroke or stroked. Using the same crank and rods in either block is just a few cubes difference.
The larger bore 340 will have less valve shrouding which will help breathing. Knowing that, cam selection can compensate some along with judiscious porting.
Again I would say if you have a 340 or 360 then use it. If you have a 318, build it with the research and correct parts combination to build a strong runner and be happy.
The biggest cause of the 318's bad rep is the cam the factory installed. The Chubby 305 has a similar rep for the exact same reason.A friend had a 1980 Pontiac 2dr with the sloped back window that had the 305 4V. Pretty regular oil changes and the car lasted longer than him. 440,000km or about 243,000 miles. The plastic cam gear finally packed it in so he had an RV style cam installed with a double roller timing set. The heads were never off and it ran well. His brother has it now. So the basic engine is not the problem. Pull the stock cam and use it for lawn darts.
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And the bigger bore ALWAYS makes more power. That is a FACT.
 
rumblefish360 said:
@Dartswinger70 - I don’t think anybody said a 318 can do what a 340 does.
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True, but what is the owner's intended use? A restored car for conours, fairly restored for show and shine, a strong running street car for taking out to dinner, cruises and show and shines or a mostly race car. As the owner, it is your dime. How is the budget for toys? Most of us have pinch the nickels a bit. Big block cars and rag tops are usually big ticket items to get. The high performance small block models are next while the bread and butter cars of our salad days are generally still sort of affordable. I have my eye on a Challenger. Supposedly not original engine or dash. I will just keep checking to see what may come about. Looks to be a 318 car, but that does not pose a problem for me.
If I want a real fast car, I would get a Lotus 7 kit, a 3.3L turbo Buick V6 Indy engine ( you can purchase freshened pickled engines) and a sequential transaxle and let them mate up.
 
Dale Davies said:
True, but what is the owner's intended use? A restored car for conours, fairly restored for show and shine, a strong running street car for taking out to dinner, cruises and show and shines or a mostly race car. As the owner, it is your dime. How is the budget for toys?
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As far as ones budget goes, that’s the owners issue. What he does or doesn’t do with there engine, no matter the size, is there deal. So what if he throws the kitchen sink at it. It’s his money right? Or do you just badger the guy to death and ridicule him? I’m lost as to your reply.

Are you saying they should upgrade the engine from a 318 to a 340 even if it is a resto? What’s the point of the post? Where are you going with it?
Most of us have pinch the nickels a bit. Big block cars and rag tops are usually big ticket items to get. The high performance small block models are next while the bread and butter cars of our salad days are generally still sort of affordable. I have my eye on a Challenger. Supposedly not original engine or dash. I will just keep checking to see what may come about. Looks to be a 318 car, but that does not pose a problem for me.

If I want a real fast car, I would get a Lotus 7 kit, a 3.3L turbo Buick V6 Indy engine ( you can purchase freshened pickled engines) and a sequential transaxle and let them mate up.
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What do the paragraphs above have to do with anything?
You introduced a pecking order. For what purpose?
Why the other brands?
We are talking strictly 318 / 340 here, right?
 
rumblefish360 said:
As far as ones budget goes, that’s the owners issue. What he does or doesn’t do with there engine, no matter the size, is there deal. So what if he throws the kitchen sink at it. It’s his money right? Or do you just badger the guy to death and ridicule him? I’m lost as to your reply.

Are you saying they should upgrade the engine from a 318 to a 340 even if it is a resto? What’s the point of the post? Where are you going with it?

What do the paragraphs above have to do with anything?
You introduced a pecking order. For what purpose?
Why the other brands?
We are talking strictly 318 / 340 here, right?
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I would offer you are just LOST. I do not think my post is hard to understa
nd and I am not picking on or berating anyone because they are on a budget.
If you have read with comprehension my previous posts, you would get the idea that I have no issues with the 318. Actually in many respects they are a better engine than the small block Chevy's.
My mention of the other brands is to compare a design or component. The biggest part is the bread and butter econo cams of early emissions and their problems.
I know and realise this is a Mopar A Bodies site, but can you pull your head out of the sun blocked region long enough to understand a bit?
 
On the cheap, the latest thing IMO id Fox body Mustang. These cars have better than average support in the parts and restoration world. Mopar? Things always cost an arm and a leg. Things like a 70 71 dart grille and headlight bezels a thousand dollars. Why? Its plastic, offer it un painted for a little cheaper..rally dash plastic trim ? 750 why? Thousand dollars goes a long way on fox parts. This is why you'll see guys driving a Duster with literally no interior and black electrical tape patches on the headliner...
 
318 power is a known recipe. We did it all the time. No need for a 340.

1. 318 short block, rebuilt, bored and honed with torque plates
2. pistons in the compression ratio to work with the gas you want to run
3. balance the rotating assy
4. 360 heads, pocket ported, competition valve job, mill flat to get a good seal, gasket match if you want
5. whatever cam and valve springs you want
6. Intake and carb

If all is the same as a 340 except the larger bore, most people will not be able to tell or feel the difference.
 
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You are essentially using just the block and using 340 360 everything else which has been my point all along. 318 guys will say "318is just as good as a 340..." which is misleading. They never finish the sentence which would go something like "...with ,mods, and a wise choice of parts from a 340-360..."
 
Dartswinger70 said:
You are essentially using just the block and using 340 360 everything else which has been my point all along. 318 guys will say "318is just as good as a 340..." which is misleading. They never finish the sentence which would go something like "...with ,mods, and a wise choice of parts from a 340-360..."
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Considering you’ll have to get the parts it was never born with, according to your route, this just puts the engines on a equal ground parts wise. Not cost. Re purposing the OE heads into ported heads is an expense you could avoid if you knew how to port. If you don’t, then you pay.

This also applies to the 340. I can not even remember the last time I seen here a hot 340 build that used stock iron heads or ported iron heads.

It’s not exactly misleading. Everyone knows more cubes is better on power production. The point you say you have been making has been the known issue. Your beating a dead horse by talking and going that route.

The point of the thread is clearly stated.
 
Let’s look at it this way.

You already have a hood and we’ll running 318.
Would you sell it to get a 340 just because…..

The forum, car club, idiot at the local gas station said the 318 is a waste to do anything with in hop up terms?

Question 2; How far would you go in hop ups to the stock 318?
 
Dartswinger70 said:
You are essentially using just the block and using 340 360 everything else which has been my point all along. 318 guys will say "318is just as good as a 340..." which is misleading. They never finish the sentence which would go something like "...with ,mods, and a wise choice of parts from a 340-360..."
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It always comes down to parts, combination, and tuning. A million ways to skin that cat. What do you have? How much time and money do you want to throw at it? How far or fast do you want to go, and how much are you willing to put up with.
 
Dartswinger70 said:
On the cheap, the latest thing IMO id Fox body Mustang. These cars have better than average support in the parts and restoration world. Mopar? Things always cost an arm and a leg. Things like a 70 71 dart grille and headlight bezels a thousand dollars. Why? Its plastic, offer it un painted for a little cheaper..rally dash plastic trim ? 750 why? Thousand dollars goes a long way on fox parts. This is why you'll see guys driving a Duster with literally no interior and black electrical tape patches on the headliner...
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The Fox body brought a bunch of features to steal Chubbies thunder. The off the showroom floor Camaros and Firebirds were quicker, but cost a bunch more. For a few hundred $ in aftermarket parts, the Fox was quicker and the owner still had beer money or gas money in his or her pocket. The parts commonality on the 5.0 Ford brought costs in line with the Chubby small block.
Unfortunately the dark ages of K cars really hurt the parts availability for classic Mopar fans, and since then parts from new vehicles have no relevance for the classics.
Caution Dartswinger70, mention of an alternate race can get rumblefish360's nose out of alignment.
 
What I find so amusing is that the 273 has a much lighter piston than a Poly and LA318. But the cranks are the same so the balance would be way off so Mopar put HUGE heavy wrist pins in to make the Piston/Pin combo weigh the same. You can put light weight pins in and then have about 4 pounds taken out of the crank.

If everyone is so hot over the larger bore of a 340 over the 318, why do they not get all fuzzy in the knees over a 400 Big Block??? Biggest bore of all Mopar V8's. Someone above said "Bigger Bore makes more power"
 
Dave_J said:
What I find so amusing is that the 273 has a much lighter piston than a Poly and LA318. But the cranks are the same so the balance would be way off so Mopar put HUGE heavy wrist pins in to make the Piston/Pin combo weigh the same. You can put light weight pins in and then have about 4 pounds taken out of the crank.

If everyone is so hot over the larger bore of a 340 over the 318, why do they not get all fuzzy in the knees over a 400 Big Block??? Biggest bore of all Mopar V8's. Someone above said "Bigger Bore makes more power"
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Harold Bettes said a bigger bore makes more power. You’d have to argue that with him. And, have you been hiding in a cave? Most every big block built is based on a 400 block for the bigger bore and shorter deck. Nothing new there.
 
Dale Davies said:
The Fox body brought a bunch of features to steal Chubbies thunder. The off the showroom floor Camaros and Firebirds were quicker, but cost a bunch more. For a few hundred $ in aftermarket parts, the Fox was quicker and the owner still had beer money or gas money in his or her pocket. The parts commonality on the 5.0 Ford brought costs in line with the Chubby small block.
Unfortunately the dark ages of K cars really hurt the parts availability for classic Mopar fans, and since then parts from new vehicles have no relevance for the classics.
Caution Dartswinger70, mention of an alternate race can get rumblefish360's nose out of alignment.
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I mention it,, because I have a Fox,but If I were to get into bracket racing today,I'd run 5.0 Ford Windsor. Its just cheaper to fix when you break it...the Mopar game isn't cheap these days,that may be why the latest interest in 318s...they are the cheap and abundant small block Chrysler
 
Dale Davies said:
Caution Dartswinger70, mention of an alternate race can get rumblefish360's nose out of alignment.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:


Dartswinger70 said:
the Mopar game isn't cheap these days,that may be why the latest interest in 318s...they are the cheap and abundant small block Chrysler
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Good notation!
As well as the Fox body mention. Very true.
 
Dave_J said:
What I find so amusing is that the 273 has a much lighter piston than a Poly and LA318. But the cranks are the same so the balance would be way off so Mopar put HUGE heavy wrist pins in to make the Piston/Pin combo weigh the same. You can put light weight pins in and then have about 4 pounds taken out of the crank.

If everyone is so hot over the larger bore of a 340 over the 318, why do they not get all fuzzy in the knees over a 400 Big Block??? Biggest bore of all Mopar V8's. Someone above said "Bigger Bore makes more power"
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I would love a 273 Barracuda. Even a slant would be fine. Post '73 Chrysler products have no interest for me. They went for **** after that.
 
Dartswinger70 said:
I mention it,, because I have a Fox,but If I were to get into bracket racing today,I'd run 5.0 Ford Windsor. Its just cheaper to fix when you break it...the Mopar game isn't cheap these days,that may be why the latest interest in 318s...they are the cheap and abundant small block Chrysler
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Yup.
 
Dartswinger70 said:
You are essentially using just the block and using 340 360 everything else which has been my point all along. 318 guys will say "318is just as good as a 340..." which is misleading. They never finish the sentence which would go something like "...with ,mods, and a wise choice of parts from a 340-360..."
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Why not use used parts from a 360 on a 318. That's the way it's always been. use what you can get your hands on for cheap.
My first upgrade on a 383 years ago was to put the larger AVS off a 440 on it.
it was not enough for my dads 440 , so it was free after he upgraded to an 850 DP Holley.
 
fishmens67 said:
Why not use used parts from a 360 on a 318. That's the way it's always been. use what you can get your hands on for cheap.
My first upgrade on a 383 years ago was to put the larger AVS off a 440 on it.
it was not enough for my dads 440 , so it was free after he upgraded to an 850 DP Holley.
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I have nothing against it. I was saying guys who run these molded 318s never let on they are molded. They say things like "318s can do what 340s can do.." its misleading bs is all. When someone says 318,to me its low compression,small heads and a two barrel...that is what I think of,and I've been through 318s,I know whats in em.
 
Dartswinger70 said:
I have nothing against it. I was saying guys who run these molded 318s never let on they are molded. They say things like "318s can do what 340s can do.." its misleading bs is all. When someone says 318,to me its low compression,small heads and a two barrel...that is what I think of,and I've been through 318s,I know whats in em.
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I hear what you're saying.
 
yellow rose said:
And the bigger bore ALWAYS makes more power. That is a FACT.
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Welllll, that is a deep subject not that easily dismissed. Generally that larger bore is also associated with larger displacement. No for a fair comparison, engine displacement need to be kept constant, which requires a shorter stroke. Then we open a can of worms as the CR needs to be held consistent. Then there is whatever contribution rod to stroke ratio has on the outcome. Then in all likelyhood the cam needs to be specified for each combination. Now in a racing application the large bore, shorter stroke combination will likely make more horsepower. For mainly street duty, the smaller bore, longer stroke combination is probably a better choice due to the potential for greater torque.
 
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