Under $4k budget build LA360 build

[John Collins]

I just recently did a budget 400 build. "Somewhere" under 3K. I tried to get it under 2K but couldn't make it.

How? I haven’t fully run the numbers, but I was thinking $4k was a good number. Should I be shooting for $3k?!? There shouldn’t be much machine shop work as it was prepped by his local machine shop and was ready for a build before the PO went another route. It was stored covered in a climate controlled environment and looks legit through pictures. I hope that’s the case.

 

[Dartswinger70]

the machine work will cost ya. as in cylinder boring honing heads redone etc. crank polishing etc. etc. I used to "overhaul" engines foe under a grand No machine work new bearings rods oil pump all gaskets. new cam etc. But that was years ago. maybe 20 years ago I did a 318 like that, what pushed it over $500 was that I bought a new Edelbrock aluminum intake that is now on my 340 basically you'll do what the budget dictates, and take pistons, if they are used and can be cleaned up, why buy new ones? Its all up to you and your wallet. also an eye for inspecting the parts. I will admit I did put new pistons in my one engine because I has TRW domes in it and wanted to lower compression. But not necessarily because the pistons were bad.
it sounds like you are on your way though. Build your engine and drive the car meanwhile, then swap the finished engine in one day and fire it up. Set the other one in the corner and go over it at a later date. thats how it goes. they say a true hot rodder always has a spare engine sitting around

 

[John Collins]

the machine work will cost ya. as in cylinder boring honing heads redone etc. crank polishing etc. etc. I used to "overhaul" engines foe under a grand No machine work new bearings rods oil pump all gaskets. new cam etc. But that was years ago. maybe 20 years ago I did a 318 like that, what pushed it over $500 was that I bought a new Edelbrock aluminum intake that is now on my 340 basically you'll do what the budget dictates, and take pistons, if they are used and can be cleaned up, why buy new ones? Its all up to you and your wallet. also an eye for inspecting the parts. I will admit I did put new pistons in my one engine because I has TRW domes in it and wanted to lower compression. But not necessarily because the pistons were bad.
it sounds like you are on your way though. Build your engine and drive the car meanwhile, then swap the finished engine in one day and fire it up. Set the other one in the corner and go over it at a later date. thats how it goes. they say a true hot rodder always has a spare engine sitting around

When I get this thing, I’m going to take to a shop and have them go over it and see what the real deal is. I might have them install the the different bearings as well while there at it.

I’d love to find lightly used parts! Like you said though, knowing what you’re buying and what to look out for is key.

I plan on building a 408 out of the 360 on my car now for a future project. That’s way down the road though.

 

[Brooks James]

I did a 360 magnum fairly cheap, not cheap parts tho.
I got very lucky and bought the long block remaned for350. 150 for a hi po cam 150 for a knock off air gap. Free 650 dp from a friend, a dizzy already set up for 80, oil pump 70, seals, gaskets 100, tranny with 3500 converter 250. Etc, etc
If you’re willing to wait and you’re a bargain hunter(again no china parts)
You can definitely find great deals here especially as there are members who are willing to help others out.

 

[John Collins]

I did a 360 magnum fairly cheap, not cheap parts tho.
I got very lucky and bought the long block remaned for350. 150 for a hi po cam 150 for a knock off air gap. Free 650 dp from a friend, a dizzy already set up for 80, oil pump 70, seals, gaskets 100, tranny with 3500 converter 250. Etc, etc
If you’re willing to wait and you’re a bargain hunter(again no china parts)
You can definitely find great deals here especially as there are members who are willing to help others out.

Wow! You did really well. I don’t expect to get as lucky as you, but I dud just buy some rabbits feet to help in that department. I’m definitely not patient, but I’m going to do my best. Lol. I’ve already bought quite a few things off this site for interior needs and a couple other mechanical buys. Everyone’s been great. No bullshit, quick delivery, fair pricing...

 

[John Collins]

Careful on those "kits", John. Things like "oil pump"...do you wanna use theirs? Are you sure? I bought a Melling Hi-vol last time and the difference was amazing. I rarely had less than 60 pounds even when the oil was really hot after a hard run. The original pump in the car had around 20 at idle, less if it was good and hot. Rod and crank bearings; go with the good stuff. Gaskets...Fel-Pro for me every time. It's the little things that matter.

I just got off the phone with Mancini and the rebuild kit comes with a Felpro gasket set, Clevite Michigan 77 main, rod and cam bearings, 405CP’s with Moly rings, Melling oil pump and freeze plugs for $419.95. You can upgrade the piston to the KB 107’s for $180 more. It checks out as far as good, but the price isn’t a crazy deal. I gave “Wes” **** about my order and he’s going “to take care of me” on my next order and my front suspension rebuild kit will be shipping Friday. $600 isn’t a crazy deal, but if there’s a nice discount involved I might buy be a buyer down the road, but that’s if I can’t find a nice deal on pistons.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Lets talk about SCR or Static Compression Ratios; For a streeter this don't have much meaning; because, a street engine, for the most part, is heavily throttled, and seriously handicapped. That is to say;
the secondaries will rarely be opened,
the 3.23s keep the engine working at a very low rpm, and
the lo-stall TC is lazy as heck off the line.
So, IMO, Scr is not that big a deal, and really, it only counts at WOT, and only if the tires are NOT spinning.
And that leads to thinking about those 3.23s,
With 26.5" tires , and an automatic, the top of first gear will be ~44mph at 5200, and 5200 in second is 77 mph. So if you build a combo to be shifted at 5200, but your speed limit is 65mph, then you are throwing away 12 mph/800rpm of performance.
65 mph in second will be 4400 with those 3.23s. If the tires are hooked, the engine will be just coming up on the cam.
So IMO
You need to rethink the gears or rethink the 5200 shift-rpm.
If you need to keep the 3.23s, then
I would put an appropriate sized SOLID-lifter cam into it, and put the power into the heads instead.
A 5200 shift, points to a cam around 218@050 which is already pretty small. And that's gonna make trouble with your compression ratio.
So in studying this out you may find that the appropriate rear gear is 3.91s which will get you 65@5300,at the top of second gear, for a 5000rpm powerpeak, and therefore a cam of about 224@.050 cam, there ya go.
Now you can build your engine up around that cam.

I had a similar cam; 223/230/110 in my 360 with 11/1 Scr/185psi and alloy heads. It went 106 in the quarter just into the 12s, with 3.55s, smoking the tires thru 2 gears of a 4-speed. Big fun and pretty good on gas too. I loved that cam.
With open-chamber iron heads, you will cannot run more than about 160ish psi on pump gas, but you need to keep it over 155. And your cam is gonna have to be chosen first, so you can choose an appropriate Scr to get your pressure up to where it needs to be. Else, with insufficient pressure, your performance below 3000 might end up less than what you currently have.
Pressure is the thing to watch for.
Scr is just the tool we use to achieve it

 

[John Collins]

I had my buddy unwrap the extra bag of parts and there were 2 cam shafts, 2 sets of stamped rocker arms with shafts, 2 sets of valve springs, distributor and a few other things I couldn’t make out. My buddy said that they were in great shape. Pretty good score! I was hoping to be able to stay on the cheaper side with rocker arms and these might work. Obviously cam size has a lot to say about this. I was looking into the XE268 and people said they worked well with the stock rockers, but would possibly would need new springs. I’m interested to find out what cams are coming my way. I’m guessing ones stock and no clue on the other.

Edit: The seller just texted me saying that both cams are stock.

 

[John Collins]

Lets talk about SCR or Static Compression Ratios; For a streeter this don't have much meaning; because, a street engine, for the most part, is heavily throttled, and seriously handicapped. That is to say;
the secondaries will rarely be opened,
the 3.23s keep the engine working at a very low rpm, and
the lo-stall TC is lazy as heck off the line.
So, IMO, Scr is not that big a deal, and really, it only counts at WOT, and only if the tires are NOT spinning.
And that leads to thinking about those 3.23s,
With 26.5" tires , and an automatic, the top of first gear will be ~44mph at 5200, and 5200 in second is 77 mph. So if you build a combo to be shifted at 5200, but your speed limit is 65mph, then you are throwing away 12 mph/800rpm of performance.
65 mph in second will be 4400 with those 3.23s. If the tires are hooked, the engine will be just coming up on the cam.
So IMO
You need to rethink the gears or rethink the 5200 shift-rpm.
If you need to keep the 3.23s, then
I would put an appropriate sized SOLID-lifter cam into it, and put the power into the heads instead.
A 5200 shift, points to a cam around 218@050 which is already pretty small. And that's gonna make trouble with your compression ratio.
So in studying this out you may find that the appropriate rear gear is 3.91s which will get you 65@5300,at the top of second gear, for a 5000rpm powerpeak, and therefore a cam of about 224@.050 cam, there ya go.
Now you can build your engine up around that cam.

I had a similar cam; 223/230/110 in my 360 with 11/1 Scr/185psi and alloy heads. It went 106 in the quarter just into the 12s, with 3.55s, smoking the tires thru 2 gears of a 4-speed. Big fun and pretty good on gas too. I loved that cam.
With open-chamber iron heads, you will cannot run more than about 160ish psi on pump gas, but you need to keep it over 155. And your cam is gonna have to be chosen first, so you can choose an appropriate Scr to get your pressure up to where it needs to be. Else, with insufficient pressure, your performance below 3000 might end up less than what you currently have.
Pressure is the thing to watch for.
Scr is just the tool we use to achieve it

I’ll look into it all of this. Thank you for the advice. My only problem is highway driving with 3.91’s. I’ll have to weigh the pros and cons on that. I was already thinking about moving up to 3.55’s... I need to reread your reply a couple times and do some research. Lol

 

[AJ/FormS]

I'm not saying that you need to install 3.91s.

I am saying that you need to analyze the ENTIRE COMBO.
And if you are on a budget, then you need to put your money where it gets you the most bang for the buck.
And while getting 300 to 350 hp out of a 360 is pretty basic, actually getting to use that power doesn't usually show up until waaaay later in both rpm and especially in mph.............. because the gears control at what roadspeed the power gets delivered.
Now, if you just want a combo that burns rubber, I got nothing against that,lol.

 

[John Collins]

I haven’t gone that far yet in the combo department. At this point I only know 2 things for certain that I’ll be using at this point. I have a .40 over 360 with a stock cast crank. I have a set of 974’s that I’m going to try and machine myself a bit... nothing crazy and I might use them, but I have realistic expectations. Stock rocker assemblies that I hope to use, but know that I may need to go a different route depending on cam selection. I like the idea of either KB 107’s or Power Pro pistons H116CP.

I’m lost on how you came up with the stall and rpm numbers and tire size from. I apologize.

 

[Captainkirk]

I just got off the phone with Mancini and the rebuild kit comes with a Felpro gasket set, Clevite Michigan 77 main, rod and cam bearings, 405CP’s with Moly rings, Melling oil pump and freeze plugs for $419.95. You can upgrade the piston to the KB 107’s for $180 more. It checks out as far as good, but the price isn’t a crazy deal. I gave “Wes” **** about my order and he’s going “to take care of me” on my next order and my front suspension rebuild kit will be shipping Friday. $600 isn’t a crazy deal, but if there’s a nice discount involved I might buy be a buyer down the road, but that’s if I can’t find a nice deal on pistons.

OK, then...so far, so good! Those are answers you should be glad to hear. Listen to AJ WRT his suggestions about gearing, cam selection and SCR. The man obviously knows his facts.

 

[Captainkirk]

I’ll look into it all of this. Thank you for the advice. My only problem is highway driving with 3.91’s. I’ll have to weigh the pros and cons on that. I was already thinking about moving up to 3.55’s... I need to reread your reply a couple times and do some research. Lol

I can't answer your question WRT rear end ratios based on an AT, however I can shed a little light on those ratios running an A833 4 speed. I drove from Chicago to Tulsa spinning 3.91's and while we were trying to keep it around 60-65, I really had no issues with running out of rpm with that diff. On the return trip I was spinning 3.55's and it seemed a little more relaxed. I guess it depends on how much highway driving you intend to do. Not sure I would want to spin a 3.91 at 70-80 mph for any extended period of time, but for my current build, I don't intend to. You may have totally different expectations from your build and trans.

 

[John Collins]

I'm not saying that you need to install 3.91s.

I am saying that you need to analyze the ENTIRE COMBO.
And if you are on a budget, then you need to put your money where it gets you the most bang for the buck.
And while getting 300 to 350 hp out of a 360 is pretty basic, actually getting to use that power doesn't usually show up until waaaay later in both rpm and especially in mph.............. because the gears control at what roadspeed the power gets delivered.
Now, if you just want a combo that burns rubber, I got nothing against that,lol.

I can't answer your question WRT rear end ratios based on an AT, however I can shed a little light on those ratios running an A833 4 speed. I drove from Chicago to Tulsa spinning 3.91's and while we were trying to keep it around 60-65, I really had no issues with running out of rpm with that diff. On the return trip I was spinning 3.55's and it seemed a little more relaxed. I guess it depends on how much highway driving you intend to do. Not sure I would want to spin a 3.91 at 70-80 mph for any extended period of time, but for my current build, I don't intend to. You may have totally different expectations from your build and trans.

When I go back to work, my drives will vary between 5 blocks and 35 miles. Dependent on what I’m up to that day. With that said, a fair amount of driving will be done on the highway at 70mph. I was potentially going to build a second 3rd member with bigger gears, but after reading more about how gear ratios work with the engine build, I probably won’t. I like the idea of 3.23’s in theory because they have some balls, but aren’t too much for long highway drives. I need to research this quite a bit more. I’m missing a step or two on how AJ got to where he was with his numbers. Lol.

 

[Captainkirk]

When I go back to work, my drives will vary between 5 blocks and 35 miles. Dependent on what I’m up to that day. With that said, a fair amount of driving will be done on the highway at 70mph. I was potentially going to build a second 3rd member with bigger gears, but after reading more about how gear ratios work with the engine build, I probably won’t. I like the idea of 3.23’s in theory because they have some balls, but aren’t too much for long highway drives. I need to research this quite a bit more. I’m missing a step or two on how AJ got to where he was with his numbers. Lol.

He's got calculators.
I'll probably be picking his brain myownself.

 

[Brooks James]

I’ll look into it all of this. Thank you for the advice. My only problem is highway driving with 3.91’s. I’ll have to weigh the pros and cons on that. I was already thinking about moving up to 3.55’s... I need to reread your reply a couple times and do some research. Lol

If you the 3.91 your engine will be at about 3600 at 70! Of course that’s with 25 inch tires. There are calculators free online that will give you an approximate
Rpm and some that even include converter slippage.

 

[dartfreak75]

How? I haven’t fully run the numbers, but I was thinking $4k was a good number. Should I be shooting for $3k?!? There shouldn’t be much machine shop work as it was prepped by his local machine shop and was ready for a build before the PO went another route. It was stored covered in a climate controlled environment and looks legit through pictures. I hope that’s the case.

I had alot of good folks on here help me out! I got really cheap part and even a bunch of free ones. Search around ask around place want ads etc.

 

[Brooks James]

I had alot of good folks on here help me out! I got really cheap part and even a bunch of free ones. Search around ask around place want ads etc.

Damn right. By scrounging, begging, borrowing, negotiating, trading, waiting, etc. I was able to put my 70 Dart together for about half price! At 10,000 members strong @ 2 yrs experience that’s 20,000 years of experience to draw from. I’m proud to be a member.
The support and help here has been great. Where else are you going to get this much help for absolutely FREE???

 

[dartfreak75]

Damn right. By scrounging, begging, borrowing, negotiating, trading, waiting, etc. I was able to put my 70 Dart together for about half price! At 10,000 members strong @ 2 yrs experience that’s 20,000 years of experience to draw from. I’m proud to be a member.
The support and help here has been great. Where else are you going to get this much help for absolutely FREE???

Absolutely the about of free knowledge iv abandoned is priceless! I went from thinking I knew alot to realizing I knew close to nothing lol

 

[Dartswinger70]

Chiming in about parts again.. this is a "for example" I was checking out my Crane SSH-320-NC. that is 70s-80s vintage. I was cleaning it up, and polishing on it to see if it is useable. i found some pitting on the lobes so I am on the market for a cam. Now I could put it in and it would run, but over a short time the lobes would start coming apart or rounding out, and pumping the metal through the engine. Its a shame because I really wanted to use this cam, but it is aggressive and I am really not running a race car . i am now going to do the research for the closest thing to a 68 340 manual cam that i can find. Point is though check everything and determine if it is useable. especially used parts.

 

[QuickDart360]

Chiming in about parts again.. this is a "for example" I was checking out my Crane SSH-320-NC. that is 70s-80s vintage. I was cleaning it up, and polishing on it to see if it is useable. i found some pitting on the lobes so I am on the market for a cam. Now I could put it in and it would run, but over a short time the lobes would start coming apart or rounding out, and pumping the metal through the engine. Its a shame because I really wanted to use this cam, but it is aggressive and I am really not running a race car . i am now going to do the research for the closest thing to a 68 340 manual cam that i can find. Point is though check everything and determine if it is useable. especially used parts.

If you like the crane grind maybe Racer Brown may have something similar to offer. Or a cam grinder may reproduce the same specs as the crane.

 

[Dartswinger70]

If you like the crane grind maybe Racer Brown may have something similar to offer. Or a cam grinder may reproduce the same specs as the crane.

Yeah i had put it in "storage" and it had some surface rust. I seem to think it may not have been in that great of shape. I've had it for years. I bought my car in 93 and it came with it. I ran it briefly and liked the lopey idle but it was very responsive when the throttle was opened. I was younger though now I want streetability on pump gas. I suppose Id like two engines, one street able and one street strip or full out strip. I dunno life is short...decisions

 

[John Collins]

I had alot of good folks on here help me out! I got really cheap part and even a bunch of free ones. Search around ask around place want ads etc.

Nice! I’m on this site searching every 30 minutes, looking for various items to jump on before someone else does. I’ll continue that with the engine build. I need to finalize a parts combo though. Hopefully the books I ordered arrive soon, so I can dive into the technical aspects of how everything works together. Initially, I was going to try and use a tried and true combo, fairly blindly and replicate their numbers without fully understanding the how’s and why’s. AJ’s post was an example of something that was fairly simple, but something that I couldn’t grasp initially because I misread it. I need to understand more before I move forward... While waiting for the books, I’ll reread threads and start making better notes. Are you guys familiar with “Uncle Tony’s Garage”? I know he got slack on FABO for his home head porting video. He seems to be a knowledgeable guy and has some pretty great videos. In my opinion at least. I’ve watch Just MOPAR Joe’s 360 engine build a couple times.

 

[John Collins]

Absolutely the about of free knowledge iv abandoned is priceless! I went from thinking I knew alot to realizing I knew close to nothing lol

That’s too funny. I came in thinking I knew something, but that something turned out to be just a drop in an Olympic sized pool. Lol.

 

[Dartswinger70]

Nice! I’m on this site searching every 30 minutes, looking for various items to jump on before someone else does. I’ll continue that with the engine build. I need to finalize a parts combo though. Hopefully the books I ordered arrive soon, so I can dive into the technical aspects of how everything works together. Initially, I was going to try and use a tried and true combo, fairly blindly and replicate their numbers without fully understanding the how’s and why’s. AJ’s post was an example of something that was fairly simple, but something that I couldn’t grasp initially because I misread it. I need to understand more before I move forward... While waiting for the books, I’ll reread threads and start making better notes. Are you guys familiar with “Uncle Tony’s Garage”? I know he got slack on FABO for his home head porting video. He seems to be a knowledgeable guy and has some pretty great videos. In my opinion at least. I’ve watch Just MOPAR Joe’s 360 engine build a couple times.

I like watching UTG for the "entertainment" of it. But I don't think he "walks you through" anything. In fact he'll tell you to seek out other videos about specific wrenching situations. He gets bashed by some out there that dont get his show, but I like watching him tinker around like trying to make Bottle rocket go 10 seconds etc. Another one he was bolting on carburetors on the side of the road and comparing them out of the box" but not necessarily showing you how to bolt on a carb etc. He may still be on here his FABO name is Whitepunkonnitro