Which heads are best

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hemichuck

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I just got my 408 short block back from the machine shop and was wanting some opinions on which heads to use and where to get them. Its a 1972 260 block bored .030 with a 4 inch forged crank, eagle rods and forged probe flat top pistons with the 2 valve reliefs. They are zero decked. I am putting it in a 1970 340 Dart Swinger body that has power steering, power brakes, and air conditioning, all of which I intend to use. 3.23 Posi rear and 727 automatic. Not a race car, just a cruiser. I dont want to get too radical with the cam but I do want a little bump at an idle but I want all the power brakes and air to work good. What cam combos will work good and what kind of aftermarket heads will do the trick out of the box. I plan on buying the heads and assembling this thing in the next couple of weeks so no waiting for machine shops to get around to doing anything.
 
Given the intended use... why aftermarket?
If you start the will they run good out of the box or should they be taken to a machine shop? the debate will last longer than it would take to make them from a piece of metal yourself LOL
 
Given the pistons are flat tops at zero deck- I'd suggest you stick with the factory type 340/360 X/J/O type open chamber deals, have them redone for performance with a combination of a good 5-angle valve job and some port cleanup, and run those. If you use anything closed chamber you will have detonation issues with the cam you need to run the power brakes with. It will be horsepower limited but will run pump unleaded from anywhere and make decent torque. You really should use dished pistons if you want to use a smaller cam and modern heads but it's a moot point now. Another thought is the open chamber RPMs. IMO a lot of money for the weight loss, bling, and no quench but the iron wouldn't have quench either.
 
Looking up the pistons.... I get a static CR of 11.2 with the 65 cc Edelbrock RPM Performers and .051" thick head gaskets. Mmmmmm..... not gonna run that with a mild cam and pump gas!

Even with the stock open chamber heads like suggested, opened up to 74 cc's, it is still at 10.2 SCR. It would take 74 cc heads and .100" thick head gaskets to get down to 9.2 SCR. I'm not even sure you can keep that thick a gasket under the head. (And anyone, please doublecheck my numbers...)

I have actually run a 10.2 engine with open chambers and a torque cam (gobs of idle vacuum) with premium fuel, but cam timing was straight up (no advance) and the ignition advance was limited and slow ot come in. That did not matter so much as the torque cam made up for a lot of that. But that puts you in territory where you need to be careful about detonation with that kind of SCR.

So it looks like stock heads with the chambers opened up a bit, as Moper said.
 
YOU HAVE TO DEFINE BEST.


Then you can get an answer that is relevant and makes sense.

Anything else is pure hyperbole.
 
Looking up the pistons.... I get a static CR of 11.2 with the 65 cc Edelbrock RPM Performers and .051" thick head gaskets. Mmmmmm..... not gonna run that with a mild cam and pump gas!

Even with the stock open chamber heads like suggested, opened up to 74 cc's, it is still at 10.2 SCR. It would take 74 cc heads and .100" thick head gaskets to get down to 9.2 SCR. I'm not even sure you can keep that thick a gasket under the head. (And anyone, please doublecheck my numbers...)

I have actually run a 10.2 engine with open chambers and a torque cam (gobs of idle vacuum) with premium fuel, but cam timing was straight up (no advance) and the ignition advance was limited and slow ot come in. That did not matter so much as the torque cam made up for a lot of that. But that puts you in territory where you need to be careful about detonation with that kind of SCR.

So it looks like stock heads with the chambers opened up a bit, as Moper said.


I'm running a bit over 11:1 with cast iron heads and pump gas.

You can do it. You just have to have a plan and then stick to it.

Compression makes power. To cut back on it is bad, unless you really have to. A competent cam grinder is your best friend.
 
Don't buy Pistons before you choose what head you are going to run.
 
I'm running a bit over 11:1 with cast iron heads and pump gas.

You can do it. You just have to have a plan and then stick to it.

Compression makes power. To cut back on it is bad, unless you really have to. A competent cam grinder is your best friend.
What cam specs do you have with that?
 
What cam specs do you have with that?

I will dig out the cam card and post them. I know off the top of my head it is 255/255 @ .050 and .620/.620 gross with a lash of .014/.016 hot on a 105 LSA.

I don't have the rest of it memorized so I'll have to pull out the engine file.

BTW it is installed at 105.
 
I have run a aluminum headed 360 @ 11-1 with a slightly smaller cam than Yellow Roses.
 
Here's a picture of the cards for the two cams I have laying around. Not against buying a new cam if it's better suited to my application

image.jpeg


image.jpeg
 
You'd have a chance with the 305H... no chance with the first cam card.
 
Here's a picture of the cards for the two cams I have laying around. Not against buying a new cam if it's better suited to my application

View attachment 1714931205

View attachment 1714931206


IMO the 110 LSA is too wide for most production style heads...even W2's. I never spread the LSA and reduce timing to get the RPM range I want. That's how GM did it. I made my money in high school taking money from GM guys with big blocks. I didn't help they couldn't drive.

Back to the topic at hand, you should call a cam grinder and tell them EXACTLY what YOU want. I'm always a nervous Nellie when i see LSA's getting wider than 108 on production type cylinder heads, no matter what the name on the valve cover is.

When you make the move to shallower valve angles, raised ports, bigger port volumes, larger MCSA's, and if you are really in it to chevyize your MoPar, reducing rod ratios, then you can start to open up the LSA.

I never do it to "fix" things that don't need fixin.

Rant off on LSA.
 
You'd have a chance with the 305H... no chance with the first cam card.


That 305h would be a decent cam if they put it on a 106/107 LSA but the 110 is a tuning killer. Even comp thinks it will take 11:1 but I doubt it with iron heads with an LSA that wide. Somehow, when I wasn't looking in the late 1980's comp made 110 LSA the de facto LSA for everything and the folks bought that nonsense.
 
Going back to the beginning of this thread, someone asked why aftermarket? And the answer to that is because I don't really have any decent stock heads to build. Edelbrock makes an open chambered head for the small block but I had asked the guys at Hugh's engines about them and they said they don't recommend them because they don't work. Anybody have any experience with those heads?
 
I just got my 408 short block back from the machine shop and was wanting some opinions on which heads to use and where to get them. Its a 1972 260 block bored .030 with a 4 inch forged crank, eagle rods and forged probe flat top pistons with the 2 valve reliefs. They are zero decked. I am putting it in a 1970 340 Dart Swinger body that has power steering, power brakes, and air conditioning, all of which I intend to use. 3.23 Posi rear and 727 automatic. Not a race car, just a cruiser. I dont want to get too radical with the cam but I do want a little bump at an idle but I want all the power brakes and air to work good. What cam combos will work good and what kind of aftermarket heads will do the trick out of the box. I plan on buying the heads and assembling this thing in the next couple of weeks so no waiting for machine shops to get around to doing anything.
If your wanting to stay with hyd. flat tappet, I'd go with something like 236-242@ .050 on a 113lca...this cam works great for applications as yours, and you can either run edelbrock rpm heads with the chambers opened up for 10:1, or our Indy Iron heads with the chambers opened up...either way your looking at 1700-1850.00 for either setup.
 
Going back to the beginning of this thread, someone asked why aftermarket? And the answer to that is because I don't really have any decent stock heads to build. Edelbrock makes an open chambered head for the small block but I had asked the guys at Hugh's engines about them and they said they don't recommend them because they don't work. Anybody have any experience with those heads?
I'm not quite seeing the whole necessity for the aluminum heads except for availability and even at that many will say that they need to be reworked anyways. For your intent and purposes previously stated I can't see were aluminum heads are going to help that much if any. Now if you were saying that you're going to drag race that may be a different story. Hughes is a very good source of information and they're helpful when you call them but please always keep in mind they are out to make money. I have a set of their rockers and they're great and they offered plenty of tech support. But at the end of the day they're trying to make money and some of their tech support was a little misleading and quite honestly it seems a little off the cuff and definitely some of it was flat-out wrong and I must add mostly due to the fact that they weren't there seeing my problem but we're trying to give me a quick answer it seemed. again great product but...
 
Going back to the beginning of this thread, someone asked why aftermarket? And the answer to that is because I don't really have any decent stock heads to build. Edelbrock makes an open chambered head for the small block but I had asked the guys at Hugh's engines about them and they said they don't recommend them because they don't work. Anybody have any experience with those heads?


Not to be a dick but Dave Hughes in NOT God. I can tell you for a fact that the open chamber, if correctly modified and you get the quench even half way close, will outflow the closed chamber and have better flow characteristics. I call BULLCRAP. They work. There are hundreds of thousands of open chamber heads out there making power. The W2 is open chamber. I spent more time screwing with the chamber on my W5's than I did correcting the intake port. I also spent a bunch of time dealing with top cuts on the W5 and never really was happy with the reverse flow as a percentage. That was almost 10 years ago, and I would certainly change the valve job that I used.

The point is, the open chamber takes a beating from guys who think that Chevrolet never had a bad idea, have no compunction to go back and see why with smaller intake ports, an exhaust port that ford would make ford blush have been constantly, across the board had the crap factored out of competition by NHRA. It is my contention that Chrysler was not retarded when it was developing its induction/port/valve style/valve angle/chamber. When you start reducing rod/stroke ratio you have to spend way more time fretting over quench.

Look in the for sale section of FABO, moparts, Craigslist and such and look for some used edelbrocks. If they are open chamber all the better. You can use it as a lever to beat down the price. You can also find good deals on cast iron heads. Just so you know, there is ZERO difference in small block castings. Don't matter if it's an x or an o or a j it makes ZERO difference. Use a 2.02 valve and they are all the same. Late model heads with the hole under the exhaust port are cheap and many and they make the same power as any other head.
 
The smaller cam will run the brakes, but won't work because of the pistons. The larger cam will work with the pistons, but won't run the power brakes.
I agree with Yellow about D. Hughes and his opinions.
None of this is hyperbole unless everything is hypothetical. We have real specs for the lower end and the OP's goals. Unfortunately those "givens" now dictate the top end to work within the provided parameters. You need to lower static, giving up any chance of quench in order to be able to run a cam small enough to run power brakes and run on available pump fuel. IMO - the "right way" would be replacing the pistons with dished, rebalancing, and running a modern, closed chamber, aluminum head. I steer clear of Magnum based stuff because the valve train costs are higher and the return on investment over an LA-based head marginal (by my opinion).
If you don't want to redo the lower end, either run a stock head (the chambers will be larger than 74cc as cast...) and a thicker gasket to end up around 9.8:1 static, or run the open chamber RPM which are no different than the closed chamber except for the .100" deep chamber milled out of them. There is no power difference you will notice between the two models of LA based RPM.
 
That's basically what I was asking on the open chambered Edelbrocks, larger chamber will drop the compression a little and the aluminum makes up a little for higher comp ratios. I guess if I run some kind of Vaccum reservoir and a little bigger cam I might be able to reach a happy medium somewhere. I wasn't referring to Mr Hughs as the last word on what would work, I was at the Indy head service show and he was one of several people I was talking to and when he said the open chambers didn't work it kind of struck me as odd that an outfit like Edelbrock with all the research and development they do would offer something up that didn't work. I also went over to talk to Ken Lazari at the Indy booth but he said he was busy and kind of blew me off (in the usual IHS fashion) I had a booth up there but I fully intended to buy two sets of heads for a couple of motors I need to finish, I ended up coming home empty handed. Im getting real close to sticking this 408 over in the corner to collect dust and just sticking my stock 340 back in the car and calling it a day.
 
So I am gathering from this whole conversation that I can just call Indy and order a pair of the $499 cast iron reworked heads with the 2.02 valves and they will be as good as anything. Then I just need to figure out what cam I need to use to make it all work.
 
That is one take out of this conversation. Just make sure the chambers are opened up. I would be having them CC the heads if you don't want to do it yourself, and open up the chambers to beyond 74 cc's. I would prefer to have them pretty well equalized too.

At that, you'll still need to run a higher duration cam than would normally be picked to run the car like you originally described. But, the pistons as installed set that limitation. Something like the 308 is not a cruiser cam at all; I'd expect it to be mighty lumpy at idle, and fer sure require a higher stall TC. Now for the valvetrain to support the cam.....you need to look at the rocker and valve guide/retainer clearance to be able to handle the lift associated with the larger cam; some bone stock heads will probably need some retainer clearance work.

So it is not just a matter of some plain stock heads with large valves tossed in at this point. If you want true off-the-shelf, IMHO you might be well served to speak with someone like Brian here, who will cover all these bases for you as a complete off-the-shelf package of cam and heads and valvetrain. (And I don't mean to speak for you Brian, so just tell me if I am overpromising for you LOL) I don't normally do this, but there are enough details here that need attention that this approach seems like a good one in this case, assuming it will get done to your timetable.

The power brake vacuum may be best solved with a separate vacuum pump. But, seriously, if you want to dispense with the power brakes and not let that be a constraint on the engine operation, there are way to get more brake torque without power brakes, especially in a lighter A body. If you have large read drums, then higher coefficient of friction pads up front, like EBC Yellowstuff pads, will make the fronts have significantly more brake torque for a given pedal pressure, and any prop valve in the rear can be backed off to let the rears produce more brake torque too.
 
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Yeah, Im aware that statement is somewhat of an oversimplification of what has to be done. I really just wanted to buy some heads and get a motor in this car so it wont be sitting out its 24th summer of cruising. I have a bone stock 340 bottom end and I think I will just freshen it up and stick some iron heads on it and a stock 340 cam and go cruising. Maybe some day I will use the 408 in a drag car but I doubt it. I have a Viper if I want to go fast so I really wasnt trying to build the Dart into a beast. Ive been doing this junk for 40 years and I'm really to the point where the older cars dont have as much appeal as they used to. I think I would rather just get a new ACR Viper or a Hellcat and sell all this old stuff and clear out my garage. Theres a lot to be said for turnkey rides that will easily go 150 mph with the air conditioner on.
 
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