who is running MRL (BAM) Lifters without lifter bore sleeves

[Duane]

If you feel like it, can you explain what the crossover lines do? I say they do nothing. I know you have your ideas on the oiling issue and I'd love to hear them. What you are doing is just moving oil around in a giant circle (that's what it looks like to me) and I can't for the life of me see how that will get oil to the rod bearings at the correct time.

Also, externally oiling the shafts does very little. You still are getting the oil from the system.

I'd love to hear what you think is happening with the oil you've moved.

Tim just to add a bit more to your comments. Both of these lines are not my ideas. The one mod for full time oiling the rockers is straight from a Chrysler engineer in the stroker small block book.
His explanation is that in the stock system the path from the main galley to the rockers is too long.
If you try to increase the supply to the rockers by increasing supply
Through the 2&4 cam bearings you risk rod bearing failure. I know this first hand on my last build when I used grooved cam journals
Without any restrictions. I lost bearing crush in 2&4 main after 40 passes.
The other line is to avoid feeding the driver side galley from #1 main and starving the #1 main and the rod it feeds. This is well documented for many years by Chrysler.
I did not talk about oil timing because this is a valvetrain discussion
With some members having oil pressure issues.
The way I have done my valvetrain I am hoping for the best compromise of adequate oil pressure by restricting all the lifter bores to.030 feed, but still have a wet pressurized valvetrain.
But this would indirectly help the bottom end as well because these mods create a full priority main system or very close to it imho.

 

[Duane]

good explanation duane
I have done the standard in the book crossover but the rocker feed is new to me
thanks
The rod feed issue is one of YR's special interests- and needed

It is new to me as well, but imho the benefits are so obvious I had to try it this way. The oil timing issue has merit. I have addressed that too but this was a valvetrain discussion about lifter leakage.
I wanted to show how I have addressed it.

 

[davescuda]

I have a set of the Comp 828-16 lifters arriving tomorrow from Summit. Everything is coming out of my car and taken apart. Whatever grinding for clearancing the 828's will get done with the block apart. Probably going to have the lifter bores bushed.

If you are going to bush them, them us the BAM lifter if they are still good. They are good lifters just need bush the lifter bores.

 

[yellow rose]

Tim just to add a bit more to your comments. Both of these lines are not my ideas. The one mod for full time oiling the rockers is straight from a Chrysler engineer in the stroker small block book.
His explanation is that in the stock system the path from the main galley to the rockers is too long.
If you try to increase the supply to the rockers by increasing supply
Through the 2&4 cam bearings you risk rod bearing failure. I know this first hand on my last build when I used grooved cam journals
Without any restrictions. I lost bearing crush in 2&4 main after 40 passes.
The other line is to avoid feeding the driver side galley from #1 main and starving the #1 main and the rod it feeds. This is well documented for many years by Chrysler.
I did not talk about oil timing because this is a valvetrain discussion
With some members having oil pressure issues.
The way I have done my valvetrain I am hoping for the best compromise of adequate oil pressure by restricting all the lifter bores to.030 feed, but still have a wet pressurized valvetrain.
But this would indirectly help the bottom end as well because these mods create a full priority main system or very close to it imho.

Evidently I need to get the book you are working from.

I get the circuitous route the oil goes to get to the rockers, but its essentially a constant flow system. Once the system has pressure there is flow through the system until some engineering problem crops up and the system can't overcome that.

That long route to the rockers is one reason why I don't like hot idle oil pressure to get below about 40 pounds. And the engineering of the system screams for a bit more oil pressure.

I've done dyno testing where a reduction of oil pressure was a loss of HP and all of it was at the rockers.

I need to read the book you are. I want to see what the book says. I understand what you are trying to gain. I even did an external feed to the rockers and until I corrected the oil timing to the rods, I kept killing bearings. Then I undid the the external feed to the rockers because it was a bit of a PITA and didn't have bearing or rocker issues.

 

[Duane]

Evidently I need to get the book you are working from.

I get the circuitous route the oil goes to get to the rockers, but its essentially a constant flow system. Once the system has pressure there is flow through the system until some engineering problem crops up and the system can't overcome that.

That long route to the rockers is one reason why I don't like hot idle oil pressure to get below about 40 pounds. And the engineering of the system screams for a bit more oil pressure.

I've done dyno testing where a reduction of oil pressure was a loss of HP and all of it was at the rockers.

I need to read the book you are. I want to see what the book says. I understand what you are trying to gain. I even did an external feed to the rockers and until I corrected the oil timing to the rods, I kept killing bearings. Then I undid the the external feed to the rockers because it was a bit of a PITA and didn't have bearing or rocker issues.

In the opinion of the authors of the book the stock rocker system is very restrictive and is not a steady continuous supply. It claim that oil only flows when the timed hole in the 2&4 cam journals are line up which most of the time they are not.
What I like most about this modification is that all five main and all five cam bearings oil exactly the same way.

 

[famous bob]

I have a set of the Comp 828-16 lifters arriving tomorrow from Summit. Everything is coming out of my car and taken apart. Whatever grinding for clearancing the 828's will get done with the block apart. Probably going to have the lifter bores bushed.

I SOLD (GAVE AWAY) A VIRTUAL NEW SET OF 829-16`S BECAUSE THEY DON`T HAVE PRESSURE FED OIL TO THE ROLLER , CHECK IT OUT.

 

[famous bob]

If you are going to bush them, them us the BAM lifter if they are still good. They are good lifters just need bush the lifter bores.

MY ENGINE THO A BIG BLOCK HAS BEEN TOGETHER FOR A COUPLE OF YRS., JUST ABOUT FINISHED (I THINK) W/ THE CAR NOW, ALL SEEMS TO BE WORKING OK, so far.
I wanted to bush the lifter bores when I put the block in the "supposedly" best machine shop in this area , they told me couldn`t do it !
--They are heavily into the 405 bunch---------

 

[Duane]

I SOLD (GAVE AWAY) A VIRTUAL NEW SET OF 829-16`S BECAUSE THEY DON`T HAVE PRESSURE FED OIL TO THE ROLLER , CHECK IT OUT.

I have a like new set of those lifters as well that I removed for the same reason. No pressure fed oiling.
Ryan Johnson at Shady bushed my small block.

 

[famous bob]

I have a like new set of those lifters as well that I removed for the same reason. No pressure fed oiling.
Ryan Johnson at Shady bushed my small block.

Yeah, mine is a hi h.p. street car, didn`t want to ''not'' have pin fed lifters.

 

[davescuda]

I forgot your's a big block

 

[davescuda]

I have a like new set of those lifters as well that I removed for the same reason. No pressure fed oiling.
Ryan Johnson at Shady bushed my small block.

For small block not much choices to make that have sold body to run not bushed. Beside the 828 any recommendation?

 

[Alex5280]

It is my understanding the ONLY lifters that you might have a chance running them un bushed and get away with it, is the Comp 828-16's. I'm talking LA small block and running a Solid Roller cam and lifters.

 

[Duane]

For small block not much choices to make that have sold body to run not bushed. Beside the 828 any recommendation?

I think we are talking two different issues here.
Are these street driven vehicles?
Chrysler has always recommended tubing the block as the low cost way to run a roller lifter and have proper oil pressure.
Bushing the block is expensive. Many drag only cars run fine with good oil pressure with only tubing the block. But the lifters are completely run dry and rely on splash oiling only.
Many makes of higher end lifters aimed at the racer are now using a pressure fed system to get better lubrication to the axle and needle bear/bushing. That's why I posted a lengthy post of how I did my block to get hopefully decent oil pressure and a pressure fed lifter wheel. You can run that 828 lifter without bushing or tubing the block
And get decent oil pressure. But the durability of the lifters may not be very good. Two very distinct issues. And if you ever fail an axle wheel assembly, you will be tearing down your motor at a minimum just to fish all those needle bears out of the oil pan.

 

[512Stroker]

I think we are talking two different issues here.
Are these street driven vehicles?
Chrysler has always recommended tubing the block as the low cost way to run a roller lifter and have proper oil pressure.
Bushing the block is expensive. Many drag only cars run fine with good oil pressure with only tubing the block. But the lifters are completely run dry and rely on splash oiling only.
Many makes of higher end lifters aimed at the racer are now using a pressure fed system to get better lubrication to the axle and needle bear/bushing. That's why I posted a lengthy post of how I did my block to get hopefully decent oil pressure and a pressure fed lifter wheel. You can run that 828 lifter without bushing or tubing the block
And get decent oil pressure. But the durability of the lifters may not be very good. Two very distinct issues. And if you ever fail an axle wheel assembly, you will be tearing down your motor at a minimum just to fish all those needle bears out of the oil pan.

Duane are you talking about "durability" on a Hi rpm race engine or a Lo rpm street engine that may see 6000 rpm on rare occasion?

 

[Duane]

Duane are you talking about "durability" on a Hi rpm race engine or a Lo rpm street engine that may see 6000 rpm on rare occasion?

That's exactly the point. I have not seen many on this thread state what they are intending with the motor. IMHO the guys that are having oil pressure issues is because you did not plan the build correctly. Like Pittsburg racer said earlier, you should really never plan to run any kind of roller lifter in a La block without either tubing the galley or bushing the lifter bores. What kinda cam lift. How much spring pressure. What rpm range etc.
In a mild street build I personally do not see the reason for a roller lifter. IMHO.

 

[davescuda]

My car is mainly a street car
340 20 over
379 stroke off set cut
comp star rods H beam
Ross piston
10.3 compression
W2 race heads
Noris rockers
585 cam I believe to look cam card (more of a Street cam) solid roller
Oil trough head
MRL (BAM) lifters was told by Mike at MRL that I did have to bush them. But know I should have.
lifter bores are not bushed
motor has only ran for a short time
Low oil pressure at idle 12 at idle and 45 giving it gas climbs slow definitely something wrong. Ryan at SD said it the lifters that he has seen this.
Trying not to pull my motor out and tear it down. So far I think 828 is the fix. (if it is my lifters still have to inspect)

 

[Duane]

My car is many a street car
340 20 over
379 stroke off set cut
comp star rods H beam
Ross piston
10.3 compression
W2 race heads
Noris rockers
585 cam I believe to look cam card (more of a Street cam) solid roller
Oil trough head
MRL (BAM) lifters was told by Mike at MRL that I did have to bush them. But know I should have.
lifter bores are not bushed
motor has only ran for a short time
Low oil pressure at idle 12 at idle and 45 giving it gas climbs slow definitely something wrong. Ryan at SD said it the lifters that he has seen this.
Trying not to pull my motor out and tear it down. So far I think 828 is the fix. (if it is my lifters still have to inspect)

T

 

[Duane]

Are you sure you did not miss a oil galley plug. I missed the one below the distributor on the drivers side once.
You know you can drive anything on the street these days and call it a street car, but that is almost the same build I have for a strip only bracket car, same heads,same rockers(they are beauties),eagle "H"
Rods. Pretty serious motor. I have not seen a set of the lifters that you have, but my guess is the cutaway(oil band) in the lifter body combined with the lift of the cam is partially uncovering the huge oil supply hole that small blocks have.
The comp cam lifter should fix it,because it does not have an oil band. That is assuming your lifter bores are in good shape.
Just make sure you inspect the lifters routinely for wear.
If there is such a thing as a drop in roller for a small Mopar the 828 is it.

 

[512Stroker]

That's exactly the point. I have not seen many on this thread state what they are intending with the motor. IMHO the guys that are having oil pressure issues is because you did not plan the build correctly. Like Pittsburg racer said earlier, you should really never plan to run any kind of roller lifter in a La block without either tubing the galley or bushing the lifter bores. What kinda cam lift. How much spring pressure. What rpm range etc.
In a mild street build I personally do not see the reason for a roller lifter. IMHO.

I do not have an oil pressure issue 25psi hot idle, 60 psi hot cruz'n speed.
My engine is a 340 .030 over LA 1969 date code, stock oiling system, stock lifter bores that were measured within spec and in good shape.
10.5:1 compression
Ported X Mopar heads with a port matched Edelbrock dual plan manifold, MSD pro Billet distributor
Cam is a Comp Hydraulic roller P/N 20-811-9 Lift is .538/.534
Comp valve springs 150 closed 320 open, Comp roller rockers
Street application will never see over 6000 rpm, cruz'n rpm at 70 mph - close to 3000rpm
Engine produced 452 hp corrected on a engine dyno
My issue is the crappy Comp retrofit roller lifters P/N 8920 they bleed off very quickly and rattle like hell on start up hot or cold regardless of how much preload you have. Block was cleaned twice very well before assembly including scrubbing the oil galleys, I dont believe trash in the engine caused the bleed off issue.
None the less, Comp Cams has suggested that if I cant live with it (not) to swap the hyd rollers for solid rollers Comp P/N 828
Solid lifters on hyd cam grind? I have been told by a some Forum member that this possible to do with a tight lash. I will never again use any kind of roller lifter for a street engine.
Your comments please, thanks in advance

 

[Duane]

I do not have an oil pressure issue 25psi hot idle, 60 psi hot cruz'n speed.
My engine is a 340 .030 over LA 1969 date code, stock oiling system, stock lifter bores that were measured within spec and in good shape.
10.5:1 compression
Ported X Mopar heads with a port matched Edelbrock dual plan manifold, MSD pro Billet distributor
Cam is a Comp Hydraulic roller P/N 20-811-9 Lift is .538/.534
Comp valve springs 150 closed 320 open, Comp roller rockers
Street application will never see over 6000 rpm, cruz'n rpm at 70 mph - close to 3000rpm
Engine produced 452 hp corrected on a engine dyno
My issue is the crappy Comp retrofit roller lifters P/N 8920 they bleed off very quickly and rattle like hell on start up hot or cold regardless of how much preload you have. Block was cleaned twice very well before assembly including scrubbing the oil galleys, I dont believe trash in the engine caused the bleed off issue.
None the less, Comp Cams has suggested that if I cant live with it (not) to swap the hyd rollers for solid rollers Comp P/N 828
Solid lifters on hyd cam grind? I have been told by a some Forum member that this possible to do with a tight lash. I will never again use any kind of roller lifter for a street engine.
Your comments please, thanks in advance

That's what I said in my post above. Why use on the street.
I have a friend with 500 inch Indy headed motor in a Daytona that runs consistent 8.60s with a flat tappet cam. Some drag cars don,t use a roller.

 

[Duane]

I do not have an oil pressure issue 25psi hot idle, 60 psi hot cruz'n speed.
My engine is a 340 .030 over LA 1969 date code, stock oiling system, stock lifter bores that were measured within spec and in good shape.
10.5:1 compression
Ported X Mopar heads with a port matched Edelbrock dual plan manifold, MSD pro Billet distributor
Cam is a Comp Hydraulic roller P/N 20-811-9 Lift is .538/.534
Comp valve springs 150 closed 320 open, Comp roller rockers
Street application will never see over 6000 rpm, cruz'n rpm at 70 mph - close to 3000rpm
Engine produced 452 hp corrected on a engine dyno
My issue is the crappy Comp retrofit roller lifters P/N 8920 they bleed off very quickly and rattle like hell on start up hot or cold regardless of how much preload you have. Block was cleaned twice very well before assembly including scrubbing the oil galleys, I dont believe trash in the engine caused the bleed off issue.
None the less, Comp Cams has suggested that if I cant live with it (not) to swap the hyd rollers for solid rollers Comp P/N 828
Solid lifters on hyd cam grind? I have been told by a some Forum member that this possible to do with a tight lash. I will never again use any kind of roller lifter for a street engine.
Your comments please, thanks in advance

Since your complaint is only on startup you could add a small accumulator to pre oil.

 

[justinp61]

The Comp 8043-16 is a drop in but not a solid body, its also pressure fed to the roller. I'm running a set in my unbushed R1 block.

 

[512Stroker]

The Comp 8043-16 is a drop in but not a solid body, its also pressure fed to the roller. I'm running a set in my unbushed R1 block.

My engine has a stock oiling system, thru the rocker shafts.
I dont think I can run the Comp 8043 rollers.

 

[512Stroker]

That's what I said in my post above. Why use on the street.
I have a friend with 500 inch Indy headed motor in a Daytona that runs consistent 8.60s with a flat tappet cam. Some drag cars don,t use a roller.

Have you ever run a solid roller on a hydraulic grind?

 

[Duane]

Have you ever run a solid roller on a hydraulic grind?

No I have not. Not saying it cannot be done though. Call comp cams and ask them.