I will definitly check that tomorrow. I was wondering what would be a good way to check and see if the clutch was working properly. Very good info.
won't go in gear
- Thread starter duster360
- Start date
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I will definitly check that tomorrow. I was wondering what would be a good way to check and see if the clutch was working properly. Very good info.
Checked it today and I have .035" clearance. There was a catch in the shifter mechanism so I pulled it apart, cleaned, greased and reassembled. It was to late to start it and do a test.
DaveBonds
Garage Trash
What are you running for oil?
Got home from work today and went out and cranked the car and it still is hell to get in gear if it will go. Wants to grid in reverse like the clutch isn't working. But I know the clutch is good cause I checked it. So I went ahead and pulled the tranny and put it on the work bench. Pulled the inspection plate on the side and all looks good. I can slide both the shift forks side to side no problem. But it is hell to do it in the car.
TrailBeast
AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
Sounds like something is causing to much drag on the input shaft.
By chance have you tried pushing in less and see if the problem changes?
Odd question I know, but I have a very specific reason for asking.
Try half way down and see if it's any better, then three quarters.
By chance have you tried pushing in less and see if the problem changes?
Odd question I know, but I have a very specific reason for asking.
Try half way down and see if it's any better, then three quarters.
1970 La
Well-Known Member
Were the hubs wore pretty bad? I have seen them wore enough that the slider would not move freely and made it hard to shift. You said you rebuilt it maybe the synchronizers were not machined right and the taper is not slowing down the speed gear enough to get it into gear. Just a thought good luck.
I was thinking the same thing about the drag on the input shaft. Cant try the clutch at the moment. Trans is on work bench.
TrailBeast
AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
Ok.
Also, are you absolutely positive the disc is going in facing to right way?
I have seen them go together fine, but not want to disengage all the way because of this.
I know syncros were mentioned already, and it's a good thought.
But, they don't affect reverse at all and we are supposed to be able to use reverse without it grinding like it doesn't have a clutch.
Hard grinding going into reverse is specifically a clutch disengagement issue or input shaft drag.
How does it act when you start it in gear?
When running in gear then take it out of gear does it kind of thump or feel like it was dragging till it came out of gear?
The thing that bugs me is that it was shifted smooth as butter the first few times I went through the gears. That tells me the synchros were fine.
1970 La
Well-Known Member
I did not catch the the issue in reverse also, so yeah no synchro issue there.
The pilot bushing being to tight could be the issue but i seen you had a input for a alignment tool. I would measure the two inputs and see if the one in the transmission is bigger for some reason. I have had to fit the bushing after installing them into the crankshaft with a flap wheel because they are to tight. If you are able to put the transmission in flush with out resistance I would not think the pilot is the problem but if your using the bolts to pull it up tight then the pilot is to tight.
The pilot bushing being to tight could be the issue but i seen you had a input for a alignment tool. I would measure the two inputs and see if the one in the transmission is bigger for some reason. I have had to fit the bushing after installing them into the crankshaft with a flap wheel because they are to tight. If you are able to put the transmission in flush with out resistance I would not think the pilot is the problem but if your using the bolts to pull it up tight then the pilot is to tight.
1970 La
Well-Known Member
May not be the problem but what about bell housing alignment?
Not ever been a problem for me on the stock stuff but the lake wood bell housing can be a real pain some times. Ok I'm done for now lol.
Not ever been a problem for me on the stock stuff but the lake wood bell housing can be a real pain some times. Ok I'm done for now lol.
Dartnut
Don't hate me because i'm beautiful
I think you are on to something here.
While it's apart, i would check to see if the bell housing big hole is in the center in relation to the pilot bearing.
If it isn't, this could cause a side load on the input shaft causing it to bind.
You can get offset dowel pins for the back of the block if this is the issue to correct this.
Did you check to see if the clutch disc moved smoothly on the splines of the input shaft?
Does it go through all of the gears properly when the engine isn't running?
These are some things i would try.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
DaveBonds
Garage Trash
The issue is not with the transmission.
When you walk the car through the gears while it's not running, it does move the input shaft and the clutch disc that are splined together, slightly. If you can't, as you've stated, something is locking that clutch disc/ input shaft assembly. That's why it's not a problem on the bench.
Something is interfering with the clutch and input shaft. The dead giveaway is the reverse problem. Think about it. If the car is on the ground, everything is put together, engine is running and the clutch is supposed to be disengaged, so the input shaft/ clutch disc are at a stand still, there shouldn't be any motion to cause a grinding sound of any kind.
If you can't get the gears in, with everything installed and the engine off, the clutch/input shaft assembly is locked solid on something that won't even let the synchronizers bump it over a tooth.
Button the transmission up and leave it on the bench.
Pull the bellhousing off, pull the clutch and flywheel off, use a dial indicator on the crank and index the bellhousing, according to factory process and recommendation with the offset dowels.
If you get so much as .002" side load on that input shaft, from the bellhousing not being directly centered on that crank, it will do the same thing as not having a big enough pilot bushing.
Any interference that you have on the input shaft to pilot bushing will rub and make the input shaft/ clutch disc assembly do whatever the crank is doing and not allow it to do what it needs to do on it's own.
If you used another input shaft for an alignment tool, odds are, your pilot bushing diameter is fine, but the suggestion above, stating that you need to be able to put the transmission flush with the bell, without any help from the bolts is absolutely critical.
When you center the clutch disc with the input shaft, it does center the clutch disc in the pressure plate against the crank, but the transmission centers into the big hole on the back of the bellhousing. If that hole is not exactly centered on the crank, via indexing dowels with the correct offset, clocked properly, the trans does whatever that bell does and fights the crank/ pilot bushing.
When you walk the car through the gears while it's not running, it does move the input shaft and the clutch disc that are splined together, slightly. If you can't, as you've stated, something is locking that clutch disc/ input shaft assembly. That's why it's not a problem on the bench.
Something is interfering with the clutch and input shaft. The dead giveaway is the reverse problem. Think about it. If the car is on the ground, everything is put together, engine is running and the clutch is supposed to be disengaged, so the input shaft/ clutch disc are at a stand still, there shouldn't be any motion to cause a grinding sound of any kind.
If you can't get the gears in, with everything installed and the engine off, the clutch/input shaft assembly is locked solid on something that won't even let the synchronizers bump it over a tooth.
Button the transmission up and leave it on the bench.
Pull the bellhousing off, pull the clutch and flywheel off, use a dial indicator on the crank and index the bellhousing, according to factory process and recommendation with the offset dowels.
If you get so much as .002" side load on that input shaft, from the bellhousing not being directly centered on that crank, it will do the same thing as not having a big enough pilot bushing.
Any interference that you have on the input shaft to pilot bushing will rub and make the input shaft/ clutch disc assembly do whatever the crank is doing and not allow it to do what it needs to do on it's own.
If you used another input shaft for an alignment tool, odds are, your pilot bushing diameter is fine, but the suggestion above, stating that you need to be able to put the transmission flush with the bell, without any help from the bolts is absolutely critical.
When you center the clutch disc with the input shaft, it does center the clutch disc in the pressure plate against the crank, but the transmission centers into the big hole on the back of the bellhousing. If that hole is not exactly centered on the crank, via indexing dowels with the correct offset, clocked properly, the trans does whatever that bell does and fights the crank/ pilot bushing.
Dave, I believe you have hit the nail on the head. I was doing some research this evening and had come to that conclusion. Your statement has verified what I had thought was happening. I guess once I sat the car on the ground and put pressure on the drivetrain it all shifted. I will be checking the crank runout tomorrow if I can get my dial indicator hook to the crank somehow. I don't have a magnetic base and I know the threaded stud on the dial stand is too small to screw into the crank. I will either have to rig up something or order what I need. I am starting to feel a little relieved now that the problem is coming to light. Thanks for the help everyone. Feel free to keep the comments coming. I will keep everyone posted on the progress and outcome. May take until wednesday or so to get it done because of having to order the offset pins.
demon1515
Well-Known Member
Well i got another possible cause, If it is a conversion from Auto to 4 speed, and u are using pilot bearing and not a bushing it happens to me that the steep transition from the pilot bearing to the splines are pushing against the pilot bearing making it bind there, like it was a too long of a input shaft. if that is the problem go and use a bushing and dont forget to test fit your imput shaft in it after installed in the crank shaft cuz sometimes they tend to shrink a little, and need to get honed to fit properly.
Ok. I have everything apart. I checked the pilot bushing with the input shaft. It is very snug I can turn the shaft in the bushing but it does take some effort. I tried the new spare bushing I have and it spins freely on the shaft. I guess it swelled a little when I installed it. I think this may have a lot to do with my problem. I am going to go ahead and check the bellhousing offset anyway before I put it back together. It will be wednesday before I get my dial indicator.
Ok. Everything came in early so I got to check the bellhousing offset. It is only .0055" out. I have read that .005" out is the limit. Should I order the offset dowels just for the 1/2 thousand over the limit is and go head and try and zero it or leave it as is and put it back together. As I mentioned in an earlier post the pilot bushing is very snug on the input shaft. I have to put a good grip on the shaft I use to turn it. So with that said I know I need to ream the pilot bushing out a little to make the shaft turn easier. Looks like the bushing might have been the problem all along. I need opinions so I can be sure if I can go ahead and put it back together or so I can go ahead and order the offset pins tonight if needed.
1970 La
Well-Known Member
I would just hone the bushing it should be fine. Don't think that's enough to hurt you. Usually the stock stuff is pretty forgiving.
That is what I am thinking.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
.0055 should not hurt you The issues:
1---some cranks were never drilled deep enough if they were automatics. With the trans out, measure to the bottom of the crank hole and compare with shaft length to the face of the gearbox
2--Runout-- and bell square. Did you check both? You need to check that the bell is at 90 to the centerline of the crank. You need to check runout of the crank to the bell hole Two separate checks
3--Tight pilot. I would think this is rare, but again if you had an auto crank, and just a little undersize (many are so far under that the pilot won't go in) but if it's just a LITTLE under it would squeese the pilot and make it tight.
The sure fire check would be to remove clutch/ pressure plate and install just the gearbox and see if the trouble is still there.
Another approach you could take AFTER checking pilot hole depth is to abandon the old pilot (remove it) and use the later model Jeep style pilot which fits into the torque converter recess. You can get them in both bushing and roller. I would not use a roller on a worn pilot shaft.
Like so
1---some cranks were never drilled deep enough if they were automatics. With the trans out, measure to the bottom of the crank hole and compare with shaft length to the face of the gearbox
2--Runout-- and bell square. Did you check both? You need to check that the bell is at 90 to the centerline of the crank. You need to check runout of the crank to the bell hole Two separate checks
3--Tight pilot. I would think this is rare, but again if you had an auto crank, and just a little undersize (many are so far under that the pilot won't go in) but if it's just a LITTLE under it would squeese the pilot and make it tight.
The sure fire check would be to remove clutch/ pressure plate and install just the gearbox and see if the trouble is still there.
Another approach you could take AFTER checking pilot hole depth is to abandon the old pilot (remove it) and use the later model Jeep style pilot which fits into the torque converter recess. You can get them in both bushing and roller. I would not use a roller on a worn pilot shaft.
Like so
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