You have to be INSANE to have long-tube headers on a big-block A-body Mopar!

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jimharvard

jimharvard

JimHarvard
FABO Gold Member
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I posted a couple of weeks ago that I have started working on a forgotten car in my collection - an original 69 383 4 speed fastback Formula S Cuda. This car has been sitting in my garage piled full of parts since 2008. After I got it set up in the garage extension i built just for that car, I removed all the parts piled inside, cleaned 12 years of dust off the windows and started doing some basic "restoration" stuff.

I drained the oil replacing it with "conventional" Castrol GTX 10w-30, a new Frame filter, new fuel filter and new antifreeze. I siphoned the old gas out of the tank and put in 5 gallons of Marathon Premium. I filled the Master Cylinder with brake fluid but found it will not pump up the brakes so i ordered a new one from Summit.

About 5 years ago, I had put a new battery in this car just to see if it would start and all the starter did was "click." So I knew I would have to replace the starter, but I really didn't think about that project - until now! So I added a Mopar brand mini-starter to my Summit order and it should be here any day now.

So I spent a lot of time just staring at the car's 383 with nice chrome valve covers and chrome headers. I think they are TTI's but I don't know for sure. I knew the mopar GIANT OEM starter was buried behind the driver's side header but I knew the starter wasn't going to fix itself so I started on this "repair."

So how many of you guys have replaced a OEM starter on an A-body Mopar with a factory 383 and long-tube headers? I've installed a number of starters on old cars in my 66 years, however, I've never done THIS particular car and starter. If I told you I'm ready to put a cube of C4 plastic explosive under this car, get a safe distance away, and then press the detonator button - would that surprise you? If you've done this repair, my idea shouldn't surprise you.

So far, I've removed the left front wheel; disconnected the exhaust from the header collector; removed all the header head bolts; removed two spark plugs; removed the driver's side front wheel tie-rod link; and the Pitman Arm hex nut. Tomorrow I'm on a search for a Pitman Arm puller tool. As all you guys who are now laughing your asses off at my "adventure", you already know that a set of long-tube headers just BARELY fit on a 383 in a 69 Barracuda. I have cranked the steering drag link clear over to the right and the Pitman Arm is still blocking the header so i'm going to remove that arm tomorrow and push the drag link out of the way. I'm HOPING that this will give me enough clearance to either push this header up past the starter or pull it down out of the car. I do have the car up in the air on multiple jackstands about two feet so I think I can get the header down out of the car if I can get it to clear "everything."

Soooo... do any of you guys have any "tips" or suggestions on a better way of changing a starter on this car? Am I making any big mistakes when there is a better way to do this repair? I really don't want to disconnect the motor mounts and try jacking the engine up or over to the passenger side for more fender well clearance. That is going to be my LAST option if at all possible!

PLEASE share any experience you may have with this repair and any tips you learned. Here is a picture of what I started with. The garage all around the car now looks like a bomb went off with all kinds of tools and antifreeze on the floor.

pic 6.jpg
 
I can offer no help but I can say that you are very lucky to have these head-scratching problems!! Many here on FABO would LOVE to have the same problem!! My advice........keep a cool head and remember, the most complex problems usually have the simplest solutions.
 
Have you considered dropping the K-frame instead of taking the front suspension apart a piece at a time? I put my (B-body) headers IN on my low-deck Dart before raising the K-frame up. Amazing how much room there is with the steering box, torsion bars and the whole rest of the front end removed.
 
DrCharles said:
Have you considered dropping the K-frame instead of taking the front suspension apart a piece at a time? I put my (B-body) headers IN on my low-deck Dart before raising the K-frame up. Amazing how much room there is with the steering box, torsion bars and the whole rest of the front end removed.
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that is an interesting idea i never considered. however, i don't have a lift to put the car on and i would have to drop the K member with jacks. do you think that could be done? also, this is a 4 speed car. other than dropping the rear transmission cross-member, can the K-member drop while still having the drive train attached? i do want to put a Borgeson mini power steering box in this car and dropping the K frame would also make that much easier. your thoughts?
 
jimharvard said:
that is an interesting idea i never considered. however, i don't have a lift to put the car on and i would have to drop the K member with jacks. do you think that could be done? also, this is a 4 speed car. other than dropping the rear transmission cross-member, can the K-member drop while still having the drive train attached? i do want to put a Borgeson mini power steering box in this car and dropping the K frame would also make that much easier. your thoughts?
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You don't need a lift. Do you have an engine hoist? You can lift the car right off the K frame. Works good.
 
I don't think you need to take the entire drive train out, although that is the reverse of assembly - many people have put the whole engine/transmission/headers/K-frame in all at once. You can put it all on a floor dolly, and lower the car on top of it with a cherry-picker.

I don't have a lift either, so I put the drivetrain in from the top, then jacked the car up, put the headers in, balanced the K-frame on a floor jack and lifted it into place.

It was somewhat easier for me to do it in that order since I have an AR motor plate and homemade frame mounts, so I didn't have to support the engine across the fenders or with the cherry-picker... in fact the engine had to go in from the top since the front plate is wider than the frame rails and I'd already put the water pump on :)

Anyway there are lots of approaches, all of them stretching our sanity... Good luck!
 
Got weened off of headers when I was 16 years old, working on my cousins '65 GTO. That was enough for me.

TTI 2 1/2" exhaust all the way out the back coming off the factory manifolds, great way to go.

Not dumping all that heat into the engine bay with the manifolds either, like the headers do. Plus I just like something that is nice to work on.

IMG952019030995103236847.jpg
 
I don't know if it will work on a big block, but the only way I have ever been able to get the driver's side header out of my 69 340 barracuda was to put it way up on jackstands, loosen both motor mounts, and (with a floor jack and a block of wood under the oil pan) jack up the engine as high as you can. You will eventually hit the firewall or tranny tunnel pinch weld. It also helps to jack the driver's side up higher than the other side. Then, if you hold your mouth just right and say the magic word, the header can be dropped out the bottom.
 
DrCharles said:
I don't think you need to take the entire drive train out, although that is the reverse of assembly - many people have put the whole engine/transmission/headers/K-frame in all at once. You can put it all on a floor dolly, and lower the car on top of it with a cherry-picker.

I don't have a lift either, so I put the drivetrain in from the top, then jacked the car up, put the headers in, balanced the K-frame on a floor jack and lifted it into place.

It was somewhat easier for me to do it in that order since I have an AR motor plate and homemade frame mounts, so I didn't have to support the engine across the fenders or with the cherry-picker... in fact the engine had to go in from the top since the front plate is wider than the frame rails and I'd already put the water pump on :)

Anyway there are lots of approaches, all of them stretching our sanity... Good luck!
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thanks for the cherry picker idea - i do have an engine puller and have enough room to get it in front of the car and lift the car body up off the K frame. one last question and i'll quit bothering you - do you know how far you can lift the car body off the K frame with all the electric wires? i'm thinking that all the following need to be disconnected: fuel line, starter wires, brake lines from the Master Cylinder - can you think of anything else?
 
jimharvard said:
thanks for the cherry picker idea - i do have an engine puller and have enough room to get it in front of the car and lift the car body up off the K frame. one last question and i'll quit bothering you - do you know how far you can lift the car body off the K frame with all the electric wires? i'm thinking that all the following need to be disconnected: fuel line, starter wires, brake lines from the Master Cylinder - can you think of anything else?
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All of it. You're pulling the engine and transmission. Torsion bars need to come out too.
 
Lol . . Lots of goofing around to change a starter. Sounds like "Make Work Day"
 
RustyRatRod said:
All of it. You're pulling the engine and transmission. Torsion bars need to come out too.
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gee... i hope you're wrong on the "pulling the engine and trans" bit. oddly, the driver's side torsion bar does not go through the header and is about 3" away from the long runners. I'm thinking i will pull the driver's side head off the motor before i pull the motor and trans out. have you ever seen "shorty headers" for a 69 A-body with a 383? i tried to find some a couple of days ago and had no luck.
 
George Jets said:
Lol . . Lots of goofing around to change a starter. Sounds like "Make Work Day"
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Well honestly, if you stand back and look at the big picture, it's really not that difficult. These cars were designed to be assembled that way, so they are easy to take apart that way. Difficult? I don't think so....at all. Maybe time consuming is a better description. With air tools, that can be cut down significantly.
 
jimharvard said:
gee... i hope you're wrong on the "pulling the engine and trans" bit. oddly, the driver's side torsion bar does not go through the header and is about 3" away from the long runners. I'm thinking i will pull the driver's side head off the motor before i pull the motor and trans out. have you ever seen "shorty headers" for a 69 A-body with a 383? i tried to find some a couple of days ago and had no luck.
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Look at how the K frame is installed. There's no way around it. The torsion bars go through the cross member right onto the lower control arms.....that are mounted on the K frame. It all has to come out.
 
jimharvard said:
gee... i hope you're wrong on the "pulling the engine and trans" bit. oddly, the driver's side torsion bar does not go through the header and is about 3" away from the long runners. I'm thinking i will pull the driver's side head off the motor before i pull the motor and trans out. have you ever seen "shorty headers" for a 69 A-body with a 383? i tried to find some a couple of days ago and had no luck.
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All I see are these.

Hedman Street Headers 78070

Says they fit 70 and up Barracuda. I don't know what all the differences are, but it might be worth a try since they are affordable. As long as you don't destroy them, Summit will take them back. I bet the passenger's side will fall right in.
 
George Jets said:
Plan B:
Sawzall to the headers and take them out in pieces.

The OP is asking for some options . . .
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Yeah, I generally don't look at things in a destructive way......specially when he said they are TTI headers. lol
 
RustyRatRod said:
All I see are these.

Hedman Street Headers 78070

Says they fit 70 and up Barracuda. I don't know what all the differences are, but it might be worth a try since they are affordable. As long as you don't destroy them, Summit will take them back. I bet the passenger's side will fall right in.
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for $200 bucks, i might try those headers although the Summit site says they will NOT fit a "69 Barracuda." maybe something could be altered like the fender wells or steering shaft?
 
jimharvard said:
for $200 bucks, i might try those headers although the Summit site says they will NOT fit a "69 Barracuda." maybe something could be altered like the fender wells or steering shaft?
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That's what I am thinking. I bet the passenger's side one fits. The driver's side #1 tube might need to be moved. I just don't know without standing there. I'm feel sure someone with good fab skills could make it happen.
 
harrisonm said:
I don't know if it will work on a big block, but the only way I have ever been able to get the driver's side header out of my 69 340 barracuda was to put it way up on jackstands, loosen both motor mounts, and (with a floor jack and a block of wood under the oil pan) jack up the engine as high as you can. You will eventually hit the firewall or tranny tunnel pinch weld. It also helps to jack the driver's side up higher than the other side. Then, if you hold your mouth just right and say the magic word, the header can be dropped out the bottom.
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I see my suggestion got a DISAGREE. I have never worked on a big block A Body. Does that mean what works in a small block A body doesn't work with a big block? It was all I could think of. From the other posts, it looks MUCH worse than with a small block. Will those smaller starters that are available for small blocks work with big blocks?
 
Ouch.

Look how he has his spark plug wires routed to try to keep from burning them up on those headers. Just Saying

Strike Two . . for the headers . . .
 
harrisonm said:
I see my suggestion got a DISAGREE. I have never worked on a big block A Body. Does that mean what works in a small block A body doesn't work with a big block? It was all I could think of. From the other posts, it looks MUCH worse than with a small block. Will those smaller starters that are available for small blocks work with big blocks?
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so here's a bit of history on the 67-69 A body Barracudas. these were small cars, they only weighed around 3200 lbs. when the 67 "redesigned" Barracuda came out, engine choices were the "slant 6", the 273 small block and the 383 big block. in 68, the slant 6 was still available, so was a 318 but the 273 was replaced with the 340 small block. the 383 was still available in 68. in 69, the same engines were available, however, Chrysler sent about 345 big block 383 cars to Hurst who pulled that motor out and installed a 440. i have one of those cars which were called "M-Code Cudas." one of the reasons why Plymouth and Dodge redesigned the A body cars in 1970 was to make the cars bigger allowing for easier installation and maintenance on the 383, 440 and 426 Hemi from the factory. those cars were known as "E-body" Chrysler cars. these are the cars Mark Worman of Graveyard Carz specializes in. the 383 engine is just too big for the 67-69 A-body Plymouths and Dodges and the 440 motor has barely 1" clearance between the fender well/shock towers and the factory exhaust manifolds. in fact on the 383 and 440 driver's side factory exhaust manifold, there is a GIANT cut out area right in the middle of the downward portion of the manifold to accommodate the steering shaft of the car. the A-body Mopars were never really designed for a big block engine but true to Chrysler's "crazy engineering ideas" - they put big blocks in anyway.
 
George Jets said:
Ouch.

Look how he has his spark plug wires routed to try to keep from burning them up on those headers. Just Saying

Strike Two . . for the headers . . .
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actually, the spark plug wires were routed the way they are by the previous owner. you can install plug wires in a better manner than what you see in the picture even with headers. but as you note, you have to be careful to keep plug wires away from the header tubes which get extremely hot - like red hot hot. it is a much better idea to wrap header tubes with heat wrap which i intend to do once i get to that step which at this point, is pretty FAR off!
 
I feel for you. I inherited a set of ceramic coated Hooker long tubes on my 74 Dart. The drivers side are destroyed, steering box knuckle wore right through one tube and the lowest tube is wore right through from rubbing various speed bumps, curbs, etc. I can't tell you how many times I cursed the headers, pulling spark plugs, wiring up the starter, etc. Why hasn't someone invented a performance manifold, like the stock one only with bigger openings?

We recently pulled the engine for a rebuild and I am gladly getting rid of the Hooker headers. Anyone want a set of gently used headers? Passenger side is pristine, drivers side is trashed. :rofl:
 
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