340 build

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I will be real interested to find out what thickness the head gasket is. Maybe it was the piston to valve clearance that caused the cam to fail.
Was the lobe that failed on # 7 or 8?...... them are the tallest pistons.......
I'm not as much interested in brand as in thickness of head gasket.
The eddys came in two flavors one ment for the higher compression eng and one ment for the low compression 340/360 eng.
So yes, them are the wrong heads, BUT the proper head gasket will fix the problem.
The 340 head had a small ring, the same size as the bore to let a pop up piston have plenty of clearance.
Head gasket thickness is .050/.051 thou.
question: the pics of the piston tops, show eyebrows for valve clearance, but the eyebrows appear to have a dent or something about mideyebrow where the eyebrow meets the top of the piston(inboard) side. The dent, or whatever it is, seems to vary from piston to piston. So what''s going on there?
Also, what size valves are we dealing with in these heads? Have you tried to clay the top of the pistone to gauge what kind of minimum clearances(piston to head, & piston to valve) you have?
  • Cylinder Head Specifications:
  • Combustion chamber volume: 63cc / 65cc
  • Intake runner volume: 171cc
  • Exhaust runner volume: 77cc
  • Intake valve diameter: 2.02"
  • Exhaust valve diameter: 1.60"
  • Valve stem diameter: 11/32"
  • Valve guides: Manganese bronze
  • Deck thickness: 5/8"
  • Valve spring diameter: 1.46"
  • Valve spring maximum lift: .575"
  • Rocker stud: N/A
  • Guideplate: N/A
  • Pushrod diameter: 5/16"
  • Valve angle: 18°
  • Exhaust port location: Stock
  • Spark plug fitment: 14mm x 3/4 reach, gasket seat


dont get to excited about the deck height being all over the place went you measure it with the pistons in it...
Unless the crank has had it stroke indexed and equalized...and the rods have had their center to center blueprinted ....they would all be different even if the deck is square...

Quote: Unless the crank has had it stroke indexed and equalized.............
Id like to know more about all of this, never heard it mentioned until now
 
These are the pass side engine, I did not keep them in the proper order, once I found all the damage I flung a few across the shop

Some look good and some look chewed a bit

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This is drivers side, I do still know what order these came out in if it would help

Thats paint ( im a painter ) on the fingernail, dont want any confusion

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Ill find out for sure what head gasket was on it tomm when Im back at the shop

Quote: The ones with the shallow machined areas around the main chambers are intended for 340 pistons like yours................

Was their a thread about this somewhere? Id like to know more, it sounds like these are the wrong heads then but it also sounds like they can be made to work with the correct head gasket.

I think like I mentioned that the valves hit the top of the pistons at some point, made VERY minor indentations, I can get a picture of this hopefully tomm.
Looking at your cleaned up pix of the head, your DON'T have the shallow circlular recesses in the heads. So these are Edlebrock PN 60779 and your 63 cc chamber volume measurements are spot on spec for this part. SO that is very good info to establish for working further.

Cudafever points out something important with asking about the head gaskets: Piston to head clearance and gasket thickness. First off, if these pistons are good, I would not even think of changing them. They are good strong pistons. So working with these pistons and these heads as is would be where I would head unless I was doing some sort of dedicated race engine.

Where the head gasket thickness comes into play is setting piston to head clearance. With the pistons at a max of .040" out of the deck, then a .055" thick head gasket (crushed thickness) will set the minimum piston to head clearance at .035". That is about as short as you want to go for a worry free clearance. That would mean you want to get .055" thick Cometic gaskets. They are not cheap but this is the cheapest OVERALL way to use these pistons and the heads as-is. You get the benefits of quench for detonation suppression too. .060" Thick head gaskets would be OK too, if you worried about this at 100k miles of wear....

BTW, those Felpro 8553PT head gaskets are standard out-of-the-box Felpro gaskets. Nominal crushed thickness is .051" but folks have found them to vary. Too tight for this engine unless you are on top of things.

Cudafever's CR numbers look to be a spot on: high 9's to 10.0. (I get 10.0.) This will be a good torquey place to be for your truck use. This is pretty much ideal for wide street use, IMHO.

The valves hitting the pistons is very likely the valve float as said. The out-of-the-box valve springs on the Edelbrocks are decent but have their limits like any other spring. Check the piston tops for cracks; they are very probably fine, and just clean off the bits of aluminum hanging off.

The Edelbrock valves are 2.02" intake (you can look that all up now that you know the head PN) and should be fine in those valve pockets for a lot of lift as has been said. We have a set of those heads on some similar KB pistons, and with a .500" cam lift and 6 degrees cam advance, there was way over .100" of valve to piston clearance. But for SURE, check the valve-to-piston clearance when you start to assemble things with the new cam.

AND, now that you know that the valves have kissed the pistons, you need o get the heads to a shop to check for bent valves. You can do a quick check yourself by setting a head on a bench upright and at such an angle so that the valve head is horizontal. Pour some alcohol into each port and look under to see if it leaks out. A straight valve and good seat contact won't leak any alcohol.

Cam position: The cam is pushed backwards by the pressure of the lifters on the lobes; the lobes have a slight slope on the surfaces that does this. This force holds the cam back and the back face of the cam sprocket on the block holds the cam's position steady.

BTW on the bore measurements: If you got .001" above the 4.100" bore, my point was that small errors in using the telescope gauge can make them look small. (And other errors with the telescope gauge can make them look larger!) So that is why you would like to get a bore gauge into this block. And as far as the piston measurements, the normal place to measure piston diameter is across the thrust faces ('vertical' as I think you are calling it in the bores), and so far up from the bottom of the piston skirt. I just can't recall on these TRW's how far up on the skirts to measure them. The most conservative is to measure their diameter 1" up from the bottom of the skirt.

As for ring side clearance; it is simple. Just insert a feeler gauge between the ring and the ring groove and see how much space there is between ring and groove. Make sure the ring and groove are clean (but I suspect you aren't going to find much gunk in this engine).
 
BTW, I have high hopes for this engine! If it is all good or can be repaired Like with some new intake valves, you made quite a score, dude.

And I see you found the head specs.

And look on the bottom of heads in that flat area over the cylinder bore to look for any marks, particularly over the tallest pistons. With that head gasket and the APR studs crushing the head gaskets hard, making the piston to head space so tight, there is a small chance that a piston could have kissed a head. If so, then it is time to check that rod and bearing and piston a bit more closely.
 
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Ok so with taking everything you mention is the next step to drop the crank, pull pistons and measure things? Thanks
 
Looking at your cleaned up pix of the head, your DON'T have the shallow circlular recesses in the heads. So these are Edlebrock PN 60779 and your 63 cc chamber volume measurements are spot on spec for this part. SO that is very good info to establish for working further.

Cudafever points out something important with asking about the head gaskets: Piston to head clearance and gasket thickness. First off, if these pistons are good, I would not even think of changing them. They are good strong pistons. So working with these pistons and these heads as is would be where I would head unless I was doing some sort of dedicated race engine.

Sounds good to me = less money to spend

Where the head gasket thickness comes into play is setting piston to head clearance. With the pistons at a max of .040" out of the deck, then a .055" thick head gasket (crushed thickness) will set the minimum piston to head clearance at .035". That is about as short as you want to go for a worry free clearance. That would mean you want to get .055" thick Cometic gaskets. They are not cheap but this is the cheapest OVERALL way to use these pistons and the heads as-is. You get the benefits of quench for detonation suppression too. .060" Thick head gaskets would be OK too, if you worried about this at 100k miles of wear....


I was wondering if I should consider the .060 anyway cause I planned on having the machine shop just run the heads across the machine just to clean up the surface and check for trueness. Gives me a little wiggle room, what do you think?

BTW, those Felpro 8553PT head gaskets are standard out-of-the-box Felpro gaskets. Nominal crushed thickness is .051" but folks have found them to vary. Too tight for this engine unless you are on top of things.
Yep .051 is exactly what I found
Cudafever's CR numbers look to be a spot on: high 9's to 10.0. (I get 10.0.) This will be a good torquey place to be for your truck use. This is pretty much ideal for wide street use, IMHO.


I want to be at 10.1.

The valves hitting the pistons is very likely the valve float as said. The out-of-the-box valve springs on the Edelbrocks are decent but have their limits like any other spring. Check the piston tops for cracks; they are very probably fine, and just clean off the bits of aluminum hanging off.


No cracks that I am aware of

The Edelbrock valves are 2.02" intake (you can look that all up now that you know the head PN) and should be fine in those valve pockets for a lot of lift as has been said. We have a set of those heads on some similar KB pistons, and with a .500" cam lift and 6 degrees cam advance, there was way over .100" of valve to piston clearance. But for SURE, check the valve-to-piston clearance when you start to assemble things with the new cam.


Can you explain to me why the pattern on the tops of the pistons, why off to one side on the odd pistons and off to the other side on the even pistons

AND, now that you know that the valves have kissed the pistons, you need o get the heads to a shop to check for bent valves. You can do a quick check yourself by setting a head on a bench upright and at such an angle so that the valve head is horizontal. Pour some alcohol into each port and look under to see if it leaks out. A straight valve and good seat contact won't leak any alcohol.


Ill check myself, i dont think theres gonna be an issue. I need to get the valve seals you mentioned


Cam position: The cam is pushed backwards by the pressure of the lifters on the lobes; the lobes have a slight slope on the surfaces that does this. This force holds the cam back and the back face of the cam sprocket on the block holds the cam's position steady.


Still not quite clear on this. I can push the cam Waaay back, all the way back to the rear plug, is this normal?


BTW on the bore measurements: If you got .001" above the 4.100" bore, my point was that small errors in using the telescope gauge can make them look small. (And other errors with the telescope gauge can make them look larger!) So that is why you would like to get a bore gauge into this block. And as far as the piston measurements, the normal place to measure piston diameter is across the thrust faces ('vertical' as I think you are calling it in the bores), and so far up from the bottom of the piston skirt. I just can't recall on these TRW's how far up on the skirts to measure them. The most conservative is to measure their diameter 1" up from the bottom of the skirt.


Im no expert with telescoping gauges, not enough practice. I stick it in the hole at a slight angle, tighten the knob a bit and then rock it down into place, pull it out and measure.


As for ring side clearance; it is simple. Just insert a feeler gauge between the ring and the ring groove and see how much space there is between ring and groove. Make sure the ring and groove are clean (but I suspect you aren't going to find much gunk in this engine).


Got it


BTW, I have high hopes for this engine! If it is all good or can be repaired Like with some new intake valves, you made quite a score, dude.


Thanks, I have high hopes as well, there are a couple of bad spots on some ( if not all ) cylinders.....rust, very small and it prob. been there a long time.....I dont know. Would you recommend having the shop hone the cylinders, Im guessing that cant hurt?

Im assuming the amount of material removed is very minimal.

And I see you found the head specs.

And look on the bottom of heads in that flat area over the cylinder bore to look for any marks, particularly over the tallest pistons. With that head gasket and the APR studs crushing the head gaskets hard, making the piston to head space so tight, there is a small chance that a piston could have kissed a head. If so, then it is time to check that rod and bearing and piston a bit more closely.

Whats the point of the ARP studs on an aluminum head? Should I order another set or just go with new head bolts?
 
Maybe I did not reply properly, I did respond to all of your paragraphs above, you have to click onto expand evidently to see all my responses and additional ?s
 
Yes sir. A few tips (and I sincerely apologize if you already know this):
- Put some short lengths of something like 5/16" fuel line over the rod bolts immediately after you remove the rod bolts and caps; this will protect the crank surfaces from the threads of the rod bolts as you push pistons and rods up the bores.
- A long wooden dowel from underneath is good to tap on to remove the pistons from the tops of the bores. (If they hesitate to pop out right at the top of the bores, then you have a little ridge there.)
- Keep the rod and main bearings in order for examination. (I'd personally plan to put in fresh bearings but you'll know when you see them.)
- And don't mix up the rod and main bearing caps around; each one has to stay with the rod or main web they came from.

Looking forward to seeing some pix.
 
What about milling the tops off the pistons to use the 1008s. This would Simultaneously reduce the size of the eyebrows? And that would keep the compression up.Plus the intake and head ports would line up better.
I have run as little as .023 quench, with no kissing. I am currently running .034.
This would also give you an opportunity to put the dome where it does some good, by milling only those portions of the piston tops, that are under the pads. This also would keep the compression up. The higher the static compression ratio, the bigger the cam you can run, before the bottom gets soft. This is only really important on a street runner.
 
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OK, I missed some Q's. In no particular order:
- The ARP studs are designed to be reused. (All head bolts for SBM LA's can be reused, but they can eventually stretch.) The ARP studs clamp the heads and gaskets harder to block and keep things sealed up better. I'd surely keep them after examining them to see if you can detect any stretched threads.
- Yes with the cam sprocket off, you can push the cam all the way back. Its fore-aft position is controlled when things get fully re-assembled.
- I'd expect the intake valves to float first since they are larger and heavier. Follow the hit pattern on the piston to see if that matches what you see; I think it will, with the way you have numbered even and odd pistons (which is non-Mopar numbering). It will also vary with things like individual spring stiffness so there may be no set pattern just due to that. The pistons towards the front are higher so would be hit easier. Ultimately it is not important if if was valve float.
- Yep telescope gauges are tricky....
- Honing can remove a little or a lot of material; some shops will final finish the bore size with a hone. The shop should be able to control it. Ask them how much will come out after you and the shop get everything measured up, and where the piston to bore clearance will end up. Ideally, you will end up at .003"-.004". A bit more will work but the piston ring seal will degrade sooner, the looser they are. I ran some TRW forged pistons for almost 100k miles starting with .004" piston to bore clearance. They worked fine but the ring seal was going away fast in the last 15-20 k miles. It would fog the whole locale every time I put the throttle down LOL
- .055" or .060" will work for me. .055" will keep things a bit tighter on quench. If you go with Cometics, get the bore holes made at 4.125".
 
Crankshaft has .020 oversized already installed which coincides with being rebuilt twice story, the second main bearing back from the front started to melt, most of the connecting rod journals are scored ( Im assuming for all the metal being driven thru the oil system) Cranshaft is grooved but Ive seen worse and Im assuming there is an even larger bearing that can be installed after its been turned.

Stupid question, I believe that the rods need to be oriented a certain way but does it matter that I keep them in a specific order? I plan to have the entire rotating assy balanced if that matters.

Anything special about the rods....I see they installed ARP rod bolts, one of them has come loose, i wonder if thats typical?

I took pictures of cylinders from the top and the bottom. looking for any feedback of any issues seen.

BTW the pistons easily pushed out the top so no ridge to speak of I guess.

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What about milling the tops off the pistons to use the 1008s. This would Simultaneously reduce the size of the eyebrows? And that would keep the compression up.Plus the intake and head ports would line up better.
I have run as little as .023 quench, with no kissing. I am currently running .034.
This would also give you an opportunity to put the dome where it does some good, by milling only those portions of the piston tops, that are under the pads. This also would keep the compression up. The higher the static compression ratio, the bigger the cam you can run, before the bottom gets soft. This is only really important on a street runner.
I like the sound of this, hopefully others will as well
 
Can someone confirm that this is the correct balancer. I dont see a part # on it. I guess most of you guys would recommend the timing tape again?

Question : since its a neutral balance engine does that mean the balancer and whatever i mount onto the back of the crank have no play in getting the engine balanced?

I cleaned up the casting inside the oil galley and outside the block and Im assuming my next step is off to the machine shop. I plan to talk with them about just cleaning up all the gasket surfaces maybe with a quick swipe and doing as little as possible to the block but still have something I can work with. Turn the crank whatever it needs.



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Them rod bearings are trashed!!!!
that harmonic balancer is for a Cast Crank, how about a close up of that Crank.
The marks on the piston, is where i had to grind to get proper valve to piston clearance.
I think it was over revved and floated the valves, causing the piston to valve interference.
on the counter weight of the harmonic balancer, get some scotch brite and sand the paint off. see if it says 340 cast crank only. or something like that.
 
Them rod bearings are trashed!!!!
that harmonic balancer is for a Cast Crank, how about a close up of that Crank.
The marks on the piston, is where i had to grind to get proper valve to piston clearance.
I think it was over revved and floated the valves, causing the piston to valve interference.
on the counter weight of the harmonic balancer, get some scotch brite and sand the paint off. see if it says 340 cast crank only. or something like that.

Definitely a forged crank as can be seen by the parting lines and Ive had a cast crank 340/dampner and this isnt it. It would say directly on the face of the dampner for cast crank only. Its very clear and easy to read, cant remember if its raised or embossed but I think its raised

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Definitely a forged crank as can be seen by the parting lines and Ive had a cast crank 340/dampner and this isnt it. It would say directly on the face of the dampner for cast crank only. Its very clear and easy to read, cant remember if its raised or embossed but I think its raised

View attachment 1715037172
It looks like a cast crank balancer to me also. Replacement balancers didn' t have the lettering, nor did the other displacement engines
 
I see, what makes it look like a cast crank balancer, sounds like Im wrong, can you run this on a steel crank?
 
I see, what makes it look like a cast crank balancer, can you run this on a steel crank?
The offset weight on the front of it, no it needs the proper balancer. I am sure that several of us have some. I probably do in my stash
 
The offset weight on the front of it, no it needs the proper balancer. I am sure that several of us have some. I probably do in my stash
Thats crazy, so now your telling me this engine was run with the wrong balancer?? I wouldnt imagine that would be too good?
Now that I think about it if it were for a forged crank wouldnt it also have the rubber ring separating the two halves?
Also wouldnt I be better off finding a new one assuming they are avail? Ive had problems in the past with that outer portion slipping and causing issues when going to time.
 
Thats crazy, so now your telling me this engine was run with the wrong balancer?? I wouldnt imagine that would be too good?
Now that I think about it if it were for a forged crank wouldnt it also have the rubber ring separating the two halves?
Also wouldnt I be better off finding a new one assuming they are avail? Ive had problems in the past with that outer portion slipping and causing issues when going to time.
By all means, there are several good aftermarket balancers out there
 
Id like to calculate compression as it sits now so that if need be I can have any machine work done to get to my ideal compression ratio but Ive never checked deck height on an engine where the piston sat above the deck surface already?????

Here's how to check the compression of your engine components:

How to Check Compression
 
If it don't say 340 cast only then its a 360. either way it's NOT for a forged crank. Aka internal balanced.
Man no wonder you got this 340 for a song. .....vibrates, like a MO FO, over reved it and now it has a miss due to leaking bent valves.........
You might want to roll them push rod on a flat surface and see if you have any bent ones.
 
If it don't say 340 cast only then its a 360. either way it's NOT for a forged crank. Aka internal balanced.
Man no wonder you got this 340 for a song. .....vibrates, like a MO FO, over reved it and now it has a miss due to leaking bent valves.........
You might want to roll them push rod on a flat surface and see if you have any bent ones.
I hear that
 
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