71 Dart get 408/ Trick Flow Heads....

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PRH said:
It’s more expensive to “convert” from a flat to a roller, since you’re buying everything twice.
But if you’re building from scratch, the only real added expense to get into a roller set up is the difference in price between the cam & lifters, and the distributor gear.

A billet cam, some roller lifters, and a bronze gear will cost $1000-1100.

The springs & pushrods will cost about the same between the FT and roller.

I’m talking about parts that are suitable for typical basic bracket race builds........ not guys trying to turn 8500 and make 2hp/ci.
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Plus the cost of better rockers...most general roller rockers are not good for SR setups...but it seems to be worth it in the long run to go roller IMO in a race setup (even bracket race).
 
lead69 said:
This scares me a bit.....
The one thing we have in common after reading this thread is we both used howards edm lifters.

That said I am making no accusations but seeing how our cams have similar carnage/low run time/same lifters it requires some looking into. I think we have one decent lifter to possibly check out and maybe the cam as well. Hopefully you will be able to check yours as well, It would be nice to compare our findings, I will post pics later.
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I just finished sealing up my intake and I’m also running Howard’s EDM’s .....hmmm, great just what I needed to read.
 
Tony I'm just curious, but what oil do you use for cam break-in? Outer springs only? RPM during break-in?
I had a set of Comp EDM lifters years ago that had not been properly hardened after the EDM process wipe out a cam but never have seen this type of failure! That is UGLY!!
 
ou812 said:
Plus the cost of better rockers...most general roller rockers are not good for SR setups...but it seems to be worth it in the long run to go roller IMO in a race setup (even bracket race).
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I’m not an advocate of “budget oriented” rockers for any build, so whatever I would have used for rockers on a SFT cam myself, would be suitable (imo) for a mild easy-on-parts SR cam.
So, that wouldn’t be an added expense if I were building it.
Something along the lines of the old Crane golds are fine for that type of build.
 
Carnage
20210320_102742.jpg


Also you can see some "chipping" at the edges of the lifter base.
 
fishmens67 said:
I'd like to hear what Hughes has to say, they are a vendor on this site.
I used 2 Hughes solids in the late 90's early 2000 and didn't have a problem. I believe Engle was grinding them at that time
What say's Hughes ?
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Howards grinds all the Hughes cams. If you look at a Howards grind that has the super fast rates the Hughes stuff does, they give you some warnings about them
I have a Howards solid that isn't one of the fast rate cams and it makes excellent power
 
I’m pretty surprised at how thin the bottom of that lifter is.

Look how cupped this one is...... still no big hole in it:

0A8C6BEE-D003-411E-A686-55270CA35B3C.jpeg


I’d be tempted to take a cutoff wheel to one of the remaining “good ones” to see how thick it is to start with.
 
PRH said:
I’m pretty surprised at how thin the bottom of that lifter is.

Look how cupped this one is...... still no big hole in it:

View attachment 1715710784

I’d be tempted to take a cutoff wheel to one of the remaining “good ones” to see how thick it is to start with.
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Aren’t the Howard’s edm’s essentially a reworked hydraulic lifter body but with the solid insert utilizing the same snap ring location ?
 
What say's Hughes ?
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I don’t recall if you were part of the thread from last year where someone had a Hughes cam that was absolutely ground wrong(way too much lobe taper, and all lobes tapered in the same direction), and they did nothing for that customer.

Frankly, it’s hard to imagine them handling this one any differently.
 
12many said:
I just finished sealing up my intake and I’m also running Howard’s EDM’s .....hmmm, great just what I needed to read.
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I built a 360 around the same time frame with the howards edm lifters and "so far" it seems to be fine. I will be interested to ask him what they find at valve adjustment time.
 
12many said:
Aren’t the Howard’s edm’s essentially a reworked hydraulic lifter body but with the solid insert utilizing the same snap ring?
Click to expand...

I don’t know how they do it, but I would have thought they were just AMC solid lifters.
 
lead69 said:
I built a 360 around the same time frame with the howards edm lifters and "so far" it seems to be fine. I will be interested to ask him what they see at valve adjustment time.
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I emailed Mike Jones last year when I was inquiring about his required EDM lifters when buying one of his cams, and if the Howard’s I already had would be ok to use. He said yes, same lifter as he uses, but his had a slightly larger hole on the face. Don’t recall who actually makes them though.
 
PRH said:
I don’t know how they do it, but I would have thought they were just AMC solid lifters.
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Taking them apart to clean prior to using it just reminded me of a disassembled hydraulic, but I never actually compared them side my side. I’ve used/using both the pushrod oiling hydraulic and solids lifters
 
I 'd check the lifter bore geometry, can be a problem with an aggressive lobe.
 
lead69 said:
I built a 360 around the same time frame with the howards edm lifters and "so far" it seems to be fine. I will be interested to ask him what they find at valve adjustment time.
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have had a 260/264 Howards flat tappet in use for 4 seasons with edm lifters, its now in my new 418. Zero issues, lash stays constant
 
lead69 said:
Who's lifter is that one?
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Comp 2901-16

Was run for a full summer of street/strip use.

It was run on a fast rate .904 cam in an unbushed(uncorrected) block.
It was discovered afterward that the heads did not have the step removed for the inner spring(so, preloaded an extra .100”), and the motor was being run without high zinc oil or any zinc additive.

The replacement cam was done using a little slower lobes, the spring situation was rectified, and the proper oil is now being used.
Two seasons on it so far(along with some new “bests”) with no issues.
 
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B3422w5 said:
have had a 260/264 Howards flat tappet in use for 4 seasons with edm lifters, its now in my new 418. Zero issues, lash stays constant
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That's the hardest thing about this hobby is the inconsistency. There are also quite a few guys on the forum successfully running hughes grinds but no matter the company or part all it takes is one bad day in manufacturing and some customer is going to get screwed.
 
Back in the mid-80’s, when I didn’t really know anything about anything.......one summer I put 5 cams in my 440 trying different stuff at the track.
I did know you weren’t supposed to run used lifters on a new cam....... but in my mind one or two trips to the track wasn’t “used” enough to not be able to use them on another cam.
This was back when all oil was pretty good, and there wasn’t much talk about soft springing for break in.
So...... I ran all the cams(4 new ones, and one of them twice) on the same set of lifters, no special oil, and no soft springing anything.
Zero problems.

A few years later when I was working at a machine shop I went through the heads.
The springs were set up at 155 on the seat and well over 400 open.

Those were the good old days when cams going flat was a fairly uncommon thing.
 
ou812 said:
Tony I'm just curious, but what oil do you use for cam break-in? Outer springs only? RPM during break-in?
I had a set of Comp EDM lifters years ago that had not been properly hardened after the EDM process wipe out a cam but never have seen this type of failure! That is UGLY!!
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Brian...I coat the cam with the paste that come with the camshaft.....after I do the initial lash settings...and before I bolt the intake on...I go over the camshaft again with paste....I have been using Lucas 10w-30 Hot rod oil

The engines fire right up...and I set the timing right of way to 32 degrees.....rpm...varies 2000 to 2800........with EDM lifter....I should not be being worried about the cam getting oiled...LOL

I dont remove the inner spring...but i have been doing this for upteen years and never removed the inner spring...last summer I put a MP 590 in a 360 with the SM heads you did for me....broke in the same way...No problems....as I said before I removed a Hughes 5460 cam that went flat during break in....put an old MP571 oval track cam in it.....it is running just fine...and faster then the Hughes cam.....
 
Tonya and i got the engine out.....moved over the needed parts onto the 360 with SM heads.....and stuff it and the 904 with low gear set back in the car....Should have it running Monday.....it has a MP590 and it ran pretty good last summer..

Then i will get that other engine torn apart
 
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MP 590 cam = not fast rate :usflag:

About the only time I ever sell a fast rate .904 cam is when the customer specifically asks for one.
 
PRH said:
That’s what I was getting at :thumbsup:

It’s a pretty good overall bracket cam really.
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I still have 4 of them in boxes...lol......

Last one i bought was 125 dollars with lifters....

We will get it fixed.....We have tickets for the March meet in Bakersfield that was postpone to Memorial Day Weekend....so she said that we should probably use the this 360 engine at that race since it was there last October....I agreed
 
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