Another "Is Fuel Injection a Worthwhile Upgrade?" Question

[70dart340]

I apologize for snapping the other day. It's out of character for me. I've read each and every post on this thread, and will continue to do so. While I do have a new QF 750 and an AirGap RPM, I've made some good investments during my life so buying a new, complete EFI system is not beyond my means. I'm not a millionaire, but I am retired and can afford to buy a nice system. My block is in the machine shop now, so I need to decide soon. It would be easier to put in a new tank, pump, and fuel lines while the car is apart. The amount of knowledge on this site is astounding, but I now realize this knowledge comes from smart people with strong opinions. I'll continue to watch this thread, and may even try to contact them for more knowledge, politely, and with their permission. I've owned my Dart since 2006, and can't wait to get her back on the road, no matter what induction I choose. Stay strong, my friends. Paul.

 

[SLOPAR72]

I'm not an expert in these areas, that's why I asked for assistance. I'm not an expert with fuel injection, that's why I asked for knowledge from this forum. I've helped members in the past unconditionally, with my own parts I've collected over the years. It seems that several "experts" have tried to take control of this site with their "expert" opinions. All I wanted was some helpful tips or suggestions for my old man build of my old classic muscle car build. I'm ashamed to belong to belong to a site that meant so much to me when I joined a long time ago. It's turned into a big pissing contest about who has the biggest opinion or who has the most posts. This isn't the site I joined long before I joined way earlier than most of y'all joined. I'm torn between leaving, or hoping people can work together. Paul.

One option you can do which is relatively easy is get it back up and running with a Carburetor. If you have a known good one which it sounds like you do there is nothing wrong with that. I have what I car my tried and true eddy that might get thrown on my motor for break in and then put the Sniper on.... That's what is spinning in my head these days anyways......

But yes since the car is apart now is the time to do it right.... Electrical especially....

JW

JW

Dude, your car, your way..... Put em' on ignore. AndyF is a great resource for your questions and he is giving you the information which is exactly what you want. Let that Karen crap play out amongst the ones who want to go down that road.

I apologize for snapping the other day. It's out of character for me. I've read each and every post on this thread, and will continue to do so. While I do have a new QF 750 and an AirGap RPM, I've made some good investments during my life so buying a new, complete EFI system is not beyond my means. I'm not a millionaire, but I am retired and can afford to buy a nice system. My block is in the machine shop now, so I need to decide soon. It would be easier to put in a new tank, pump, and fuel lines while the car is apart. The amount of knowledge on this site is astounding, but I now realize this knowledge comes from smart people with strong opinions. I'll continue to watch this thread, and may even try to contact them for more knowledge, politely, and with their permission. I've owned my Dart since 2006, and can't wait to get her back on the road, no matter what induction I choose. Stay strong, my friends. Paul.

 

[AndyF]

I apologize for snapping the other day. It's out of character for me. I've read each and every post on this thread, and will continue to do so. While I do have a new QF 750 and an AirGap RPM, I've made some good investments during my life so buying a new, complete EFI system is not beyond my means. I'm not a millionaire, but I am retired and can afford to buy a nice system. My block is in the machine shop now, so I need to decide soon. It would be easier to put in a new tank, pump, and fuel lines while the car is apart. The amount of knowledge on this site is astounding, but I now realize this knowledge comes from smart people with strong opinions. I'll continue to watch this thread, and may even try to contact them for more knowledge, politely, and with their permission. I've owned my Dart since 2006, and can't wait to get her back on the road, no matter what induction I choose. Stay strong, my friends. Paul.

It is so much easier to do the conversion when the car is apart that if you're on the fence now is the time to decide. The fuel system is the most difficult part of the conversion so I always start there. In your case you are lucky since Holley sells a complete pump module that drops into an existing A body tank. Here is a link, take a look and review the instructions to help you make up your mind: Holley Sniper EFI 12-319 Holley 255 LPH OE Style EFI Fuel Tank Modules

With that module in place you would be able to reuse a stock fuel line and there will not be a need for a return line. You will need to add an additional EFI rated fuel filter in the engine compartment before the throttle body.

As for the throttle body you could either use a Sniper or a Terminator X. The Terminator X is a little more money but has more features and more importantly, it seems to have fewer complaints from customers. I would also recommend a Hyperspark distributor and then reuse your existing MSD ignition box and coil.

The most important thing to do is to download all of the instructions and read them over carefully. Do not buy a EFI kit without first reading the instructions. In fact I'd say that people should not buy a EFI kit without also sitting down and sketching out a schematic of how they are going to wire the car. EFI requires a full 12volts during both cranking and running and Mopar ignition systems are not designed to provide that. So the ignition system has to be re-engineered before you can install EFI. That is a detail that a lot of people leave out until the end but it should be addressed first. If you aren't willing to change the wiring system then don't start down the road.

I also highly recommend switching to a modern EFI type alternator when doing a EFI conversion. I use the 60 amp Denso alternator for my conversions since the Denso alternator is designed to work with EFI engines. Original Mopar alternators were not designed for EFI and they can be noisy. The electrical noise will cause issues with EFI systems.

 

[DionR]

EFI requires a full 12volts during both cranking and running and Mopar ignition systems are not designed to provide that. So the ignition system has to be re-engineered before you can install EFI.

Andy, do you have a method for fixing this?

I think an F-Body ignition switch bolts in, has a circuit that works, but requires replacing the plug and such. But I’ve only toyed with the idea, never done it. Just wondering what you have done.

 

[AndyF]

I buy a new engine harness from Year One and then cut it apart and modify it. The wires going to the ballast resistor are tied together (IGN 1 and IGN 2) and that tied circuit is what the Sniper and the Hyperspark plug into. That gives the EFI system a solid 12v both cranking and running. I also modify the alternator circuit if doing a Denso swap since the external voltage regulator goes away. The coil wire is removed from the engine harness and depending on the make and model there might be some other changes.

Other people solve the problem in other ways. I've seen some clever solutions and a lot of hackery.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yall give me some opinions here. I had a good friend just GIVE ME one of these the other day.

Quick Fuel SL-450-VS Quick Fuel Slayer Series Carburetors | Summit Racing

He bought it NEW and could not get it to run right on a Ford 300. I insisted on giving him something for it, because it's only a month old, but he was havin none of it. I brought it home and he had the secondaries adjusted so the transfer slots were not visible and the primaries were showing almost all the slots, plus the electric choke was adjusted so tight, it hurts your finger to stick it in there. I still have a kit for it and plan on using it on the long rod 225 I am building. I think it will run quite well.

 

[yellow rose]

Yall give me some opinions here. I had a good friend just GIVE ME one of these the other day.

Quick Fuel SL-450-VS Quick Fuel Slayer Series Carburetors | Summit Racing

He bought it NEW and could not get it to run right on a Ford 300. I insisted on giving him something for it, because it's only a month old, but he was havin none of it. I brought it home and he had the secondaries adjusted so the transfer slots were not visible and the primaries were showing almost all the slots, plus the electric choke was adjusted so tight, it hurts your finger to stick it in there. I still have a kit for it and plan on using it on the long rod 225 I am building. I think it will run quite well.

Good possibility it came out of the box that way.

You may want to measure the T slots and the T slot feeds. I’ve seen some wacky stuff and that will make off idle and cruise issues that will drive you nuts.

 

[DionR]

I buy a new engine harness from Year One and then cut it apart and modify it. The wires going to the ballast resistor are tied together (IGN 1 and IGN 2) and that tied circuit is what the Sniper and the Hyperspark plug into. That gives the EFI system a solid 12v both cranking and running. I also modify the alternator circuit if doing a Denso swap since the external voltage regulator goes away. The coil wire is removed from the engine harness and depending on the make and model there might be some other changes.

Other people solve the problem in other ways. I've seen some clever solutions and a lot of hackery.

What about the issue where the ignition switch has a gap and there is a moment when neither ign1 nor ign2 has power when going from start to run? I guess it really messes with the Gen3 Hemi swaps. Pretty sure it isn’t an issue with a Magnum swap, and probably not an aftermarket controller.

 

[AndyF]

What about the issue where the ignition switch has a gap and there is a moment when neither ign1 nor ign2 has power when going from start to run? I guess it really messes with the Gen3 Hemi swaps. Pretty sure it isn’t an issue with a Magnum swap, and probably not an aftermarket controller.

I've never had a problem with that. I did hear about a setup that a guy built using a time delay relay because he was concerned with that issue. I've also seen people use a diode to connect the two circuits but I've never used that method myself.

 

[my68barracuda]

I've never had a problem with that. I did hear about a setup that a guy built using a time delay relay because he was concerned with that issue. I've also seen people use a diode to connect the two circuits but I've never used that method myself.

I tied the ign 1 and 2 together and never had an issue, that is a common thing when upgrading the ignition to a HEI or MDS box. I have never heard of anyone adding a diode.
The simple way to get full voltage to the ecu is to use the Ign 1 and Ign 2 wires tied together as the trigger for a relay that has a power feed back to the battery.

 

[70dart340]

Thank You so much, AndyF. I'm liking you information like you wouldn't believe. My Swinger 340 has a great condition, original harness, including the 40 amp or so alternator. I know this needs to be upgraded. If a new harness needs to be installed and modified for this system, I'm capable of buying one, and modifying it to make it work with an EFI system. I believe I'm going this way. I believe I can make a high performance EFI system with your help, and keep my RPM Airgap/QF750 as a backup. For ignition, I'll ask all members for their advice. I have an MSD E-Curve I picked up tears ago, NIB. Is this outdated? I've been collecting parts for 15 years, and I realize technology has marched on. I can sell these parts without any heartburn to members here. I think I should spend my money on the new TF single plane manifold to match the heads. Please, all members, chime in.

 

[6PakBee]

I also highly recommend switching to a modern EFI type alternator when doing a EFI conversion. I use the 60 amp Denso alternator for my conversions since the Denso alternator is designed to work with EFI engines. Original Mopar alternators were not designed for EFI and they can be noisy. The electrical noise will cause issues with EFI systems.

For us purists, have you had any experience with the Powermaster retro alternators and EFI? Specifically this one:

Powermaster 7018 Retro Alternator, 95 Amps, V-belt, 12V, Chrysler

Thanks.

 

[67 gt]

For us purists, have you had any experience with the Powermaster retro alternators and EFI? Specifically this one:

Powermaster 7018 Retro Alternator, 95 Amps, V-belt, 12V, Chrysler

Thanks.

I use that one on my setup as the 65 amp I was using couldn’t keep up when the whole system was in use with the electric fan setup. Switched over and haven’t looked back . @ idle with fan running 13.4 volts. I have the shiny one . Make sure you run a earth wire from Alternator to chassis if your using Alloy heads. Just to add I used crackedbacks alternator cable that he makes which takes the higher amp load off the older wiring system .