Cam wiped out, what the hell did I do wrong?!?!?

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moper said:
64,
It is entirely possible you have a block with poorly machined lifter bores. This would cause cam failure even if everything was perfect, and is never checked. I don't check for it either, so I wouldn't beat yourself up too much over it if that's the case. This is a real problem with Hughes' cams over the years because they are so aggressive on the rate of lift. It's also why I shy away from max rate of lift cams for street builds. .
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I found an older Crane nos cam on ebay. Has 226-230 @ .050 and only .458-.465 lift.

I had a 220 @ .050 custom cam with only .455 lift for 3 years-about 10,000+ miles. Looked like new when I pulled it. I see these over .500 lift for the same duration, seems pushing it.
 
grimreaper said:
Moper, I think you hit it on the head. I have never got him to confirm what point he proved but I believe he has convinced himself that the cam companies have developed lobe profiles that perform at faster lift rates at the expense of a propensity for failure if not installed within the exact design specs used to create the designs, which may or may not be within tolerance from block to block. Probably the same issue that 64physhy experienced.
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Off topic, but I lived in Gillete for a while when I was a kid. Think it was around '79 or '80.
 
Freak, I really liked the Crane grinds and I buy them when and where I can. They made great power, were quiet, and had no real "vices". I don't believe it has anythig to do with metalugy. There were some lifter issues with the finish machining some years ago, but for the most part aside from old stock sold on ebag or whatever for dirt cheap that has passed too. Two events happened simultaneously to really spotlight cam failures. Those were the EPA mandated drop in ZDDP from gasoline engine oils making it out to the general public, and the development of rates of lift that have almost no allowance for inconsistent parts interaction at the lifter face. No matter how good the metal is or how hard you make it, if there's not enough of the right oil or the angles of the lifter face and cam are off, the proper relationship is lost and the cam will fail. Every time. The oiling problem is being addressed with additives or "muscle car/offroad use" oils and pressurized oil feeds to the lifter faces (EDM processed lifters like Howards). But the angles have no fix except bushing the block. I do know several shops that will bush blocks for flat tappet use just to use the ultra-fast cams. It's still cheaper than going solid roller but still significant for the average enthusiast.
 
Chenoweth Speed and Machine has a Block in a Bag that already comes with the bushed lifter bores.

Butttttttttttt like Moper said it is usually out of range. Price at $1650.00 and your core, if no core I think they charge another $500.00.............OUCH!!

You can find it here http://gearsandrears.com/
 
I almost never use lobes that were designed for 904 lifters. Unless it's a race application and we are doing the break in, I always spec 842 or 875 lobes. And some of the 875 lobes are just as bad as the 904 stuff.
Personally a super fast rate FT cam is the LAST thing you want because the lifter SKIDS on the lobe...not the time to ADD a fast rate of lift.

I talked with Dave Hughes last week about rocker arms, and we touched on the FT cams, and I told him about my roller lifters and wanted to offer them to him at a good price, and he told me "I almost never build roller cammed engines anymore". He said the bulk of their business was FT.
This is just the opposite of our business anymore. We are building more and more roller cammed engines.
And I'm working on a nice hyd. roller lifter that should drop right in a sb mopar and have good reliability even when pushed by lobe design.

And I'm hoping they will cost about the same as a set of sb chevy lifters!!

Brian
 
ou812 said:
I almost never use lobes that were designed for 904 lifters. Unless it's a race application and we are doing the break in, I always spec 842 or 875 lobes. And some of the 875 lobes are just as bad as the 904 stuff.
Personally a super fast rate FT cam is the LAST thing you want because the lifter SKIDS on the lobe...not the time to ADD a fast rate of lift.

I talked with Dave Hughes last week about rocker arms, and we touched on the FT cams, and I told him about my roller lifters and wanted to offer them to him at a good price, and he told me "I almost never build roller cammed engines anymore". He said the bulk of their business was FT.
This is just the opposite of our business anymore. We are building more and more roller cammed engines.
And I'm working on a nice hyd. roller lifter that should drop right in a sb mopar and have good reliability even when pushed by lobe design.

And I'm hoping they will cost about the same as a set of sb chevy lifters!!

Brian
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What's the ETA on those?
 
IF they work like they are supposed to, probably the first of August. Only about 3 weeks away.
IF they don't work like I want (drop in) then it will be another month to do spacers for the link bars. But I'm hoping these will work right away.
 
These new lifters will fit an LA block,no grinding,no clearancing?
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
if the head flow is there 300+cfm...then even a 250's*@.050 will make 500hp.
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I like your choice of words "if". Those heads came from Hughes ported I don't believe they flow anywhere near 300CFM. They are selling parts to the masses and high numbers sell them even if it is not true! Sorry to say...... as you know it took me some $$$ and awhile to figure that out!
 
Wow, all this talk about these junk Hughe's cams. The last 4 engines that I have built, I used all of Hughe's recommended componets. Two of them were 440's, my 360, & a 340.
The 440's were hyd. cammed & the small blocks were solids.
All engines were pre-oiled, spinning the oil pump with a primer rod & rotating the crank at the same time.
Each engine was set up to fire instantly for break-in, varing the idle from 2000 to 3000 rpm.

I used Huge's oil additive & valvoline 10w30 racing oil, it has Zinc @ 1200ppm.
The only one that we removed the inner springs on for break-in was the 340.
I have had absolutly no problems with any of them.
The 440's are in street cars, one with 8 years of run time & the other one with 7 years. My 360 has 4 seasons of racing on it. I have approx. 900 passes on this engine. It shows no sighns of wear. I did replace the valve springs before the 2010 season.
The 340 has approx. 40 passes on it.
I guess I have been lucky. I not saying I'm any better than any of you guys at cam installation, I'm just saying that I havn't had any of the mentioned concerns with the Hughe's stuff.
 
mikedevore said:
Wow, all this talk about these junk Hughe's cams. The last 4 engines that I have built, I used all of Hughe's recommended componets. Two of them were 440's, my 360, & a 340.
The 440's were hyd. cammed & the small blocks were solids.
All engines were pre-oiled, spinning the oil pump with a primer rod & rotating the crank at the same time.
Each engine was set up to fire instantly for break-in, varing the idle from 2000 to 3000 rpm.

I used Huge's oil additive & valvoline 10w30 racing oil, it has Zinc @ 1200ppm.
The only one that we removed the inner springs on for break-in was the 340.
I have had absolutly no problems with any of them.
The 440's are in street cars, one with 8 years of run time & the other one with 7 years. My 360 has 4 seasons of racing on it. I have approx. 900 passes on this engine. It shows no sighns of wear. I did replace the valve springs before the 2010 season.
The 340 has approx. 40 passes on it.
I guess I have been lucky. I not saying I'm any better than any of you guys at cam installation, I'm just saying that I havn't had any of the mentioned concerns with the Hughe's stuff.
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I have also ran Hughes Cams, Rockers etc without any issues at all, High Quality parts!
 
I was just wondering how long after your original breakin, before the lobes were damaged?? were you driving it?? I have a flat tappet, Comp cams (thumper cam) in my engine that i just had built, ran it like your supposed to per breakin,( i used comp cams brake in oil) and i have about 20 miles on it now, runs real strong, no noises, do you all think i am ok ?? or is there still a possibility that my cam will self destuct??
 
sorry if anyone was offended by my personal experience based opinion on hughes cams.

of corse there are people who have success with their cams.. otherwise no one would buy them and they'd be out of business.

This is not a 'lets bash hughes' thread, it's way more informative than that..
 
412 Stroker said:
I was just wondering how long after your original breakin, before the lobes were damaged?? were you driving it?? I have a flat tappet, Comp cams (thumper cam) in my engine that i just had built, ran it like your supposed to per breakin,( i used comp cams brake in oil) and i have about 20 miles on it now, runs real strong, no noises, do you all think i am ok ?? or is there still a possibility that my cam will self destuct??
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'depending on which lobes' you'll get back fires and such and find yourself chasing a vacuum increase with carb adjustments.

mine went flat in seconds, lost no.7 intake lobe and couple others.
turned the lobe into a hatchet edge, I might still have it laying around but I think I tossed it in a dumpster along with the matching boat anchor lifters...

I love how hughes really will not warranty their cams too, sweet!
they tell you to ship it back and if they find it to be the cores fault, will send you a new one...they always find it to be installers fault according to dave hughes.

I think the best thing hughes has going for them is the tool rental, roller rockers, and the cylinder head work they do.
they are awesome with that stuff.
 
mikedevore said:
Wow, all this talk about these junk Hughe's cams. The last 4 engines that I have built, I used all of Hughe's recommended componets. Two of them were 440's, my 360, & a 340.
The 440's were hyd. cammed & the small blocks were solids.
All engines were pre-oiled, spinning the oil pump with a primer rod & rotating the crank at the same time.
Each engine was set up to fire instantly for break-in, varing the idle from 2000 to 3000 rpm.

I used Huge's oil additive & valvoline 10w30 racing oil, it has Zinc @ 1200ppm.
The only one that we removed the inner springs on for break-in was the 340.
I have had absolutly no problems with any of them.
The 440's are in street cars, one with 8 years of run time & the other one with 7 years. My 360 has 4 seasons of racing on it. I have approx. 900 passes on this engine. It shows no sighns of wear. I did replace the valve springs before the 2010 season.
The 340 has approx. 40 passes on it.
I guess I have been lucky. I not saying I'm any better than any of you guys at cam installation, I'm just saying that I havn't had any of the mentioned concerns with the Hughe's stuff.
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do you know the exact spring psi seat/mid lift/open?
they seem to run high seat and somewhat weak open pressures.

135 & 330psi are what I was told back then or else valve float or flattening.
I have a strong feeling that their 1111 springs are the same springs [manley] I am running with my engle cam, they practically the same spec spring at the the same inst height.
 
I never meant this thread to be a Hughes bashing thread. That's why I was asking what I did wrong.

412 Stroker: I think it was still good right after break-in, but it's hard to tell since I didn't take it apart. It ran really strong for a while, but I only put about 20 miles or so on it after the break-in, so it probably started to break down during the break-in.
 
64physhy said:
I never meant this thread to be a Hughes bashing thread. That's why I was asking what I did wrong.

412 Stroker: I think it was still good right after break-in, but it's hard to tell since I didn't take it apart. It ran really strong for a while, but I only put about 20 miles or so on it after the break-in, so it probably started to break down during the break-in.
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Doesn't sound like you did much wrong. Break in seems alright--even with the little extra cranking at first.

But I seen back in Jan you posted you where using 1.65 ratio rocker arms. On a high lift cam like this, wow. .580+ lift. for a duration 240 @ .050 cam

Chevy motors can get break in rocker arms in 1.3 ratio. Maybe you should had broke that cam in with stock "1.5 rockers"..more like 1.45 at the most.

BUT you spent big bucks at Hughes, they should had said something..problem with calling people over the phone. Better to talk in person with a group of shop guys, imo.

And yeah, high buck motors should have the engine builder start the motor on a test stand.
 
moper said:
Howards). But the angles have no fix except bushing the block. I do know several shops that will bush blocks for flat tappet use just to use the ultra-fast cams. It's still cheaper than going solid roller but still significant for the average enthusiast.
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True, true. I got one lifter done in my 340 cause it was a factory oversize. $180 in cost. For $615 like could had all 16 done but I'm getting broke.

Using special high lift but "soft" break in springs is a big help also. Would seem like a pain to change them after 30 mins but be better than a full engine tear down.
 
dodge freak said:
Doesn't sound like you did much wrong. Break in seems alright--even with the little extra cranking at first.

But I seen back in Jan you posted you where using 1.65 ratio rocker arms. On a high lift cam like this, wow. .580+ lift. for a duration 240 @ .050 cam

Chevy motors can get break in rocker arms in 1.3 ratio. Maybe you should had broke that cam in with stock "1.5 rockers"..more like 1.45 at the most.

BUT you spent big bucks at Hughes, they should had said something..problem with calling people over the phone. Better to talk in person with a group of shop guys, imo.

And yeah, high buck motors should have the engine builder start the motor on a test stand.
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The lift with the 1.65 rockers puts it at .603/.611 lift at the valve. That shouldn't make a difference at the lobe and lifter, should it? These are magnum heads, so "stock" ratio is 1.6. I didn't think it affected anything other than valve lift. Of course, that would mean more pressure at higher lift. I don't know, somebody enlighten me.
 
.600+ lift say 30 years ago was unheard of for anything but a race only motor--that was torn apart after a few races. Why things should be different today I do not know. True, we have computer program camshaft grinding machines but.

And yes, the more ratio-the more pressure.

Your in solid roller lift rates, imo.

I have to agree with those who say this should had been a roller camshaft. Not saying its needed on the street but if you want .600+ lift--even during break in, well roller is your answer. Not sure if even hot roller cams should use special valve springs for the first hour and stay under 4,000 rpms?
 
BTW, break down the motor, clean everything up. Replace the bearings and either go roller or a milder cam--from another manufacture--like Comps and you be back in business. Sometimes stuff happens, just like traffic accidents. Wiping out your car at speed on curve is worst believe me. Everything in the car would be bent or crack and you be in hospital with a few broken bones. Been down that road long ago. No car and no walking around for months.
 
I plan on totally breaking it down and cleaning, and either going a little lower on lift, a little higher on duration, or both when I get the new cam. Still not sure on what cam yet, but it will probably be a Comp cam. A roller is a too spendy for me right now, I'd rather get a higher stall converter and higher duration FT cam for the money, or just a smaller cam all together and keep the current converter.
 
Stroke motors do like lots of cam, however many say its better to error on the smaller size. This cam here in a 360 would be a hot street profile. Check out the lift, like .550 and its a hyd roller cam by
CROWER f

STREET ROLLER / PERFORMANCE LEVEL 4 - Excellent street strip profile.
RPM Power Range: 2500 to 6000 / Redline: 6500 plus


31406

270R

112°


Duration 270-280

Duration @ .050 int 236 ex 246

Lift .550"-.548

with 1.5 rockers...says nothing about using 1.6 rockers, let alone 1.65
 
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