crossover or x-pipe

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roccodart440 said:
Old school isn't always bad. Technology and product availability has come along way since the 1960's. I'm just for taking advantage of the worthwhile improvements.


If you don't want a crossover, H or X, then don't run one. Simple.


Old school reminds me of the guy in my town who swears by his Mallory dual points, his thermoquad, his flex fan, his tiny rappy exhaust and his .509 cam. He gets his *** mopped and leaves the car home on hot days. He talks down on mine because I use new stuff that either isn't as good as the old stuff or ruined the car for taking the factory stuff off.
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I'd run a Mallory dual point long before I ever used the Chrysler OE electronic ignition.

The .509 cam is better than 90% of the dual pattern junk I see some people use.

The Thermoquad is highly UNDRRATED.

I use a flex fan. My **** don't overheat. In the desert.

Someone posted a link to a great article on cams in the thread on camshaft th engine section. You ought to click on the link and read it. You may learn something.

What you think is old school really has zero to do with its practicality or how it works in combination with other parts.

ITS THE SYSTEM, THE SUM OF THE PARTS. Not individual parts.
 
Back in the late 80's the '71 340 4 speed 'Cuda I had ran 12.5's on street tires with a mechanical tach drive Mallory dual point, a .509 cam, 2.5" dual with generic turbo mufflers and a thermoquad with an adapter on a Tarantula intake. It ran a flex fan and never overheated.

It worked for me...
excuseme.gif
 
T-N-T said:
Back in the late 80's the '71 340 4 speed 'Cuda I had ran 12.5's on street tires with a mechanical tach drive Mallory dual point, a .509 cam, 2.5" dual with generic turbo mufflers and a thermoquad with an adapter on a Tarantula intake. It ran a flex fan and never overheated.

It worked for me... View attachment 1714990088
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Yup, and I see many 408's out there, with the RPM air gap, Holley carb, MSD junk blah blah blah that run the same or not much better. And you did it with street tires that are nothing like we have today.
 
yellow rose said:
Yup, and I see many 408's out there, with the RPM air gap, Holley carb, MSD junk blah blah blah that run the same or not much better. And you did it with street tires that are nothing like we have today.
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Exactly. It had SS leafs, x-long rear drag shocks, 6 cyl torsion bars, totally worn out front shocks, no sway bars, sub-frame connectors and ran farm and fleet L60's for tires most of the time. It didn't use an H or X pipe either. It would weight transfer hard enough that it hooked on the street too. I won tons of money with that car, but it sure wasn't meant to corner hard.

It's all about the entire package.
 
yellow rose said:
I'd run a Mallory dual point long before I ever used the Chrysler OE electronic ignition.

The .509 cam is better than 90% of the dual pattern junk I see some people use.

The Thermoquad is highly UNDRRATED.

I use a flex fan. My **** don't overheat. In the desert.

Someone posted a link to a great article on cams in the thread on camshaft th engine section. You ought to click on the link and read it. You may learn something.

What you think is old school really has zero to do with its practicality or how it works in combination with other parts.

ITS THE SYSTEM, THE SUM OF THE PARTS. Not individual parts.
Click to expand...


This is about a X-pipe vs. an H pipe. To which you didn't like my original answer because I pointed out the guys dislike mostly stems from his being "old school" AND because you love to pick a fight. That's pretty clearly be established.

I'm glad your stuff works.

I run all the stuff you hate. MSD, Holley, RPM intake, H pipe.

I don't run a dual pattern cam but I do run a 112 LSA cam so I know it's "a dog" "junk" "wrong". Well I can tell you compared to when I ran the .509 cam it is faster and more street friendly so to me that's a win/win
 
roccodart440 said:
This is about a X-pipe vs. an H pipe. To which you didn't like my original answer because I pointed out the guys dislike mostly stems from his being "old school" AND because you love to pick a fight. That's pretty clearly be established.

I'm glad your stuff works.

I run all the stuff you hate. MSD, Holley, RPM intake, H pipe.

I don't run a dual pattern cam but I do run a 112 LSA cam so I know it's "a dog" "junk" "wrong". Well I can tell you compared to when I ran the .509 cam it is faster and more street friendly so to me that's a win/win
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First of all, get your big boy pants on. This is a discussion about man things among men.

Second, refer to posts 17 and 24. Read carefully. It is YOU who broached the subject. YOU Started it.

Do what you want. I've spent my life fixing stuff that guys like you jack up. And I get paid for it too.

Later dude.
 
You don't even know me, who I am, what I do. But let me introduce myself. I'm an industrial arts professor with a long vested interest land transportation and construction systems. I work as a freelance personal trainer. I hold 6 NYS powerlifting records and in 2009 held a world record. I own my own general contracting business. I own, operate and race a circle track car, a street/strip car, and a motorcycle. I've built a handful of cars. Oh, and I've even been paid to work on a few people's cars over the years.

Now that you know a little about who I actually am..


An X or H pipe "jacks the car up"?

My stuff is "jacked up".. ? :rofl:


Laughable. My stuff is functional, show winning and race winning. Proof is in the winners circle, street time and show trophies.


20 years ago, your comment would be appropriate. You aren't fixing anything I jack up. Nothing.


To the OP, if you want an H or X pipe run one. It changes the sound of the car and may or may not improve the performance. It certainly won't hurt anything.
 
Since it is my thread, TRUCE. We are all allowed opinions as Mopar guy's. This isn't election's time. Had enough crap over them. Enjoy your car's and build um like you want um!!!
 
roccodart440 said:
You don't even know me, who I am, what I do. But let me introduce myself. I'm an industrial arts professor with a long vested interest land transportation and construction systems. I work as a freelance personal trainer. I hold 6 NYS powerlifting records and in 2009 held a world record. I own my own general contracting business. I own, operate and race a circle track car, a street/strip car, and a motorcycle. I've built a handful of cars. Oh, and I've even been paid to work on a few people's cars over the years.

Now that you know a little about who I actually am..


An X or H pipe "jacks the car up"?

My stuff is "jacked up".. ? :rofl:


Laughable. My stuff is functional, show winning and race winning. Proof is in the winners circle, street time and show trophies.


20 years ago, your comment would be appropriate. You aren't fixing anything I jack up. Nothing.


To the OP, if you want an H or X pipe run one. It changes the sound of the car and may or may not improve the performance. It certainly won't hurt anything.
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Who cares?

The only thing that gets hurt is the OP's pocket book.

Again, LATER DOODE
 
I was planning on running an H pipe. I don't want to lose the V8 hotrod sound, that's why the X pipe is not up for consideration.

If my only goal was HP I'd put a hair dryer on it.

I was on the fence regarding the H pipe, now, I think I won't bother with it. A lot of work for a "might make better power".

Don't get me wrong, power is important but sound is important too.

I get the old school attitude, you can only test so many new theories before you get tired of testing.

Something I always go back to "one test is worth a thousand opinions ". But if you're tired of testing.,....
 
I think I've written in about 3 different threads now on X vs H, the benefits. How they work. Scavenging. Etc etc etc. You want a definitive answer, look up one of my posts where I go at length to explain scavenging. It's effect. How X/H pipes increase it by letting one bank help scavenge another bank (firing order and all that). And the numerous other points I make. Including a video showing how exhaust flows and the effect X/H pipes have on that.

I won't get that in depth on this response. I'll say this.

Nascar guys run X pipes. One team will spend more in one year on R&D then everyone on this forum combined. They wouldn't run them if there wasn't a benefit. Period.
 
NASCAR guys saw power increases and some new cars run X pipes in their offroad systems. We saw improvements and we saw sound reductions with the X. We ONLY used the original Dr. Gas set up. Can't comment on other's power output changes other that I can tell you some are made incorrectly and some are just wrong. Each car will act differently but they will change the tone (the X) and they will make it harder to remove transmissions.
Tom
 
Ok, after doing a little more reading, I think I will put in the H pipe.

Thanks for the input.
 
MOA said:
Ok, after doing a little more reading, I think I will put in the H pipe.

Thanks for the input.
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If you are set on doing it, then why not rent some dyno time and test what you have? Then change the exhaust and go back to the dyno. Then you will KNOW what happened.

I'm not the only guy I know who has never found power with this kind of thing. And merge collectors which were all the rage years ago. You have to think from the air intake (scoop or air cleaner) all the way to the end of the exhaust, including what intake and exhaust lobe you use, even the size of the exhaust port and valve. The real power from stuff like that is to be found in the intake side of it.

Likely you will find as a best case scenario that you won't find anything except a lighter wallet. If you don't test, you *** dyno is no better than the next guys *** dyno.

Test and verify.
 
Yellow: as I said, ”one test is worth ß thousand opinions "
It's kinda like chicken soup, were not sure it helps but it can't hurt.

I appreciate the old school knowledge, I also appreciate the new school. I am deep in electronics, it helps with the testing part of things.

Seems some of this gets personal, it's not.
All I can say is I respect and appreciate the input. I really do. I'm an old guy, that is how and why I respect and appreciate others opinions.

Dyno? Why would I not put it on a dyno. This thing is going on the dyno no matter what. Testing is what I do.

One more time "one test is worth a thousand opinions".

Opinions aren't worth ****.
 
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yellow rose said:
Likely you will find as a best case scenario that you won't find anything except a lighter wallet.
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How much can a foot of pipe and five minutes of welding really cost? Putting in an X/H pipe in is not going to break any wallets.
 
Gentlemen, although I do respect y'all's opinion, it has been proven time and time again on dynos that when paired with a tornado air management device, that X and H pipes both show massive gains.
 
MOA said:
Yellow: as I said, ”one test is worth ß thousand opinions "
It's kinda like chicken soup, were not sure it helps but it can't hurt.

I appreciate the old school knowledge, I also appreciate the new school. I am deep in electronics, it helps with the testing part of things.

Seems some of this gets personal, it's not.
All I can say is I respect and appreciate the input. I really do. I'm an old guy, that is how and why I respect and appreciate others opinions.

Dyno? Why would I not put it on a dyno. This thing is going on the dyno no matter what. Testing is what I do.

One more time "one test is worth a thousand opinions".

Opinions aren't worth ****.
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Cool. I look forward to your results.
 
JoeSBP said:
Gentlemen, although I do respect y'all's opinion, it has been proven time and time again on dynos that when paired with a tornado air management device, that X and H pipes both show massive gains.
Click to expand...

Lustle said:
How much can a foot of pipe and five minutes of welding really cost? Putting in an X/H pipe in is not going to break any wallets.
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Right. It's the testing to PROVE your results that is a cost killer.
 
Ok, here's my seat of the pants conclusion.
A long time ago,2004,I put a GearVendor unit behind the A-833 in my 68 Barracuda 367. In the process I had to cut out the H in my TTI dual 3s. This was the only change I made. I was running the 2.66x 3.55 gears for a starter gear of 9.44.
Well on the maiden voyage, I immediately noticed a lack of off-the-line-grunt. Immediately. And it wasn't just a little bit. Of course I was schooled in the H theory, but the change was quite dramatic, requiring a lot more clutch-slipping than I was used to.I had already been driving this car for over 4 years, so I was well aquainted with the engine. I spent the rest of that summer trying to get that torque back, in the tuning. Yeah I could of reinstalled the H in a new spot, but two things were at work here; 1) I liked the sound of the Dynomaxers running isolated, and 2) I was on a mission to find that torque in the tune.I like learning new stuff, and I figured I mighta not had the low-speed tune quite right.
So, I did manage to get some of it back with timing and fuel, but I struggled, and it never fully came back.
The next summer, I installed a 3.09 low gearset for a starter of 10.97 and the problem went away. 3.09s are 16% better than 2.66s. I won't say that the missing H was worth 16%, but I think it would be fair to give it 8%.
This torque deficit was only experienced from idle to maybe 2000 or so. I bet guys with 2000plus TCs would never have noticed. But I think it would also be fair to say that if you are running a 4-gear and 3.55s or less,in your streeter,you really aught to try and run an H. You won't have to rev it up like the 5.0 guys do.(I really dislike that.)This was with the 230* cam, and a 10.9Scr/8.6Dcr, and at my street weight of 3675pounds (me in it).
If you are running the regular 2.66 low gear, I think 3.91s or 4.10s will cover the hole. Also, a smaller cam will have less trouble, and so will a lighter car.These are band-aids for sure, cuz the hole, IMO, will still be there. If your M/T car has a hole and no H? Put one in and see. Come back and let us know how it goes.
 
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AJ/FormS said:
A long time ago,2004,I put a GearVendor unit behind the A-833 in my 68 Barracuda 367. In the process I had to cut out the H in my TTI dual 3s.
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One point of interest is TTI's current 3" system will allow an H pipe with the GVOD.


Another point of interest is that the dyno isn't the only reason you make choices such as running an H or x pipe. Changes in sound, both tone and volume are also reasons to make the choice.

Last, dyno pulls often start at 2500-3500 RPM and chassis dyno's even higher depending on stall. Street cars typically live between idle and 3500RPM. Really all we have to go by in making these changes in regards to street performance is seat of the pants and our ears.
 
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If the car is consistent there is nothing wrong with the dragstrip dyno. Not to mention it's cheaper and more fun.
 
roccodart440 said:
If the car is consistent there is nothing wrong with the dragstrip dyno. Not to mention it's cheaper and more fun.
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a dyno's value is in proving change.The number does not mean much...but when you change a component it will tell you instantly how the engine output has changed,as will a time slip if the change is big enough.
...and I know guys who claim they could "feel" the increase after installing an H pipe?
 
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