Diaphragm vs. Borg and Beck.............

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ValiantOne

ValiantOne

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Im sure this has been gone over before, but I only found one old thread and it wasn't very helpful. And it was from 2007 and I don't know if tech has changed on this.

I've relegated myself to buying a decent clutch. Brewers has always treated me well so I was looking at the Centerforce and McLeod options over there. I need a 10.5 for a 130 tooth flywheel and 23 spline plate. Car is just a stock 273 now, but will be getting a warmed up 5.9 eventually. Car is being built for corner carving, and maybe a autox day. No drag racing except maybe to dump it and smoke 'em occasionally.

Looks like all the Centerforce's are diaphragm style.

Looks like the McLeod's come in either B&B or diaphragm.

I read a bunch of sites (including **shiver** a Chevelle site) discussing the virtues of each type of clutch and have come to only one conclusion. No one agrees on JACK. Some say the b&b won't hold, others claim the same of dia. And vice-versa. Some say the b&b is hard to push in (my current b&b ain't that bad) and others claim the same of the dia. Again and vice-versa. (I do understand the overcenter spring needs to come out on the dia type)

The basic McLeod is a bit cheaper. So I guess that is good. But I don't want to be disappointed again! I just want a GOOD clutch this time. I want to put it in and forget it.

What d'yall recommend?

Thanks as always!

CE
 
This is simple. If you want something for a street car that requires little effort with clutch pedal depression, go diaphragm. If it is more of a race bred build, use a Borg and Beck.
 
I went with a new B&B clutch from Brewers, pedal effort is the same as the worn B&B I pulled out, which was not that hard. I did not want to mess with the overcenter spring. It was, however, a balancing act trying to adjust it.
 
RustyRatRod said:
This is simple. If you want something for a street car that requires little effort with clutch pedal depression, go diaphragm. If it is more of a race bred build, use a Borg and Beck.
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RRR nailed it...Diaphragm does everything fairly well ,on street strip cars.... Think ahead & do your research on the 5.9 Magnum swap,on clutch/flywheel setup...
 
Not to steal the thread, but I'm also in need of a clutch for my 69 340 Dart and can't decided between the B&B or the diaphragm type. I also do not want to mess with removing the overcenter spring. Not an easy job I have been told. What happens if you leave it in and go with the diaphragm type clutch?
 
Nothing wrong with a modern diaphragm. Less pedal pressure per pound of clamp pressure due to less friction at the pivot points. Also the diaphragm style PP spring design gradually gains a little clamp pressure as the disc wears, until the disc is worn to around the 1/2 way point. Beyond that, clamp pressure begins to gradually work it's way back down. By the time the disc needs replacement, clamp pressure is about what it was when the disc was new.

Any PP that uses coil springs is going to lose clamp pressure from day 1 as the disc wears. The typical way to increase clamp pressure for performance applications is to increase the coil spring's rate. The higher the coil spring's rate, the faster the rate that the PP will lose clamp pressure as the disc wears. For that reason you have to choose a PP with too much clamp pressure when it's new, so that you will have enough clamp pressure to handle the engine's torque when the disc is worn. In my opinion, overly aggressive clutch engagement due to excessive clamp pressure is the leading cause of stick cars breaking parts, also the reason many can't figure out how to successfully run sticky radials at the drag strip.

Another thing to think about if you plan WOT shifts at hi rpms, any pressure plate that features any sort of centrifugal assist is going to hit the drivetrain hardest after the shift, making it more likely to break parts or knock the tires loose.
 
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From experience, a good B&B pressure plate works good for a long time. But any clutch needs to be able to handle the torque and rpm of your engine. They do it with surface area, friction and pressure. Diaphragm PP has easier pedal effort, Centerforce is a diaphragm with sliding weights, almost impossible to balance. I have a combination Long/B&B that is supposed to be very nice, I have not tried it yet. As long as you don't intend to do 7,000 rpm power shifts take your best guess. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. I like McLeod best so far. You can actually call any of the good manufacturers and tell them what you have and how you want to use it and they can recommend something that should work for you. Use your 360 and what torque, HP, and rpm for your intended usage. That should also hold your 273, unless it is like mine...
 
694spd said:
.......... What happens if you leave it in and go with the diaphragm type clutch?
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Not a diaphragm know it all person but I believe it can/may cause the release bearing to ride on the diaphragm constantly. Constant pressure from the spring on the diaphragm (or fingers on a B&B) can hamper the clutch plate performance and cause pre-mature release bearing failure. Kinda' like riding the clutch IMO.
For a B&B, the spring acts as a an assist for the release of the plate when depressing the clutch. As you let off it lifts the pedal back up to the stop to assure bearing to finger clearance when adjusted properly.
 
My other car is a 427 Cobra replica with a 429 SCJ and Toploader 4 speed. Last summer I replaced the Borg and Beck clutch with a Centerforce diaphragm setup. As far as I can tell in street driving and occasionally running hard through the gears, they both perform very well but the Centerforce does require less pedal effort even with a hydraulic clutch slave cylinder.
 
A diaphram is a women's contraceptive.

Use a Borg & Beck or step up and buy a sof-Lok.

I hated the diaphram from day one. I guess today is post the crap I hate day. Don't get me started on EQP radiators.
 
ValiantOne said:
Well, I ended up ordering a diaphragm McLeod from Brewers. We'll see how she goes.
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It'll go just fine. :D I run a McLeod diaphragm clutch in my duster behind my 340 which should put out a little north of 400hp, works great. It even has a dual compound organic/ceramic disk that will really get yellow rose spinning. But the bottom line is over 10k street driven miles later it still works great.

Just remember you MUST remove your overcenter spring. It's really not that bad to do. Put the clutch pedal on the floor and slide (ok wedge) some metal shims between the coils of the spring. When you've loaded the spring coils up with shims, return the clutch pedal and the spring will fall off. Or you can go after it with a pry bar and hope it doesn't take anything important with it on the way out. :realcrazy:
 
With any type clutch setup, be very careful adjusting the throw out bearing travel. Constant pressure against the pressure plate, even a tiny bit, will cause undue wear on your thrust bearing over time. Not a good thing.
 
72bluNblu said:
It'll go just fine. :D I run a McLeod diaphragm clutch in my duster behind my 340 which should put out a little north of 400hp, works great. It even has a dual compound organic/ceramic disk that will really get yellow rose spinning. But the bottom line is over 10k street driven miles later it still works great.

Just remember you MUST remove your overcenter spring. It's really not that bad to do. Put the clutch pedal on the floor and slide (ok wedge) some metal shims between the coils of the spring. When you've loaded the spring coils up with shims, return the clutch pedal and the spring will fall off. Or you can go after it with a pry bar and hope it doesn't take anything important with it on the way out. :realcrazy:
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Yup, i have an aversion to junk.
 
72bluNblu said:
It'll go just fine. :D I run a McLeod diaphragm clutch in my duster behind my 340 which should put out a little north of 400hp, works great. It even has a dual compound organic/ceramic disk that will really get yellow rose spinning. But the bottom line is over 10k street driven miles later it still works great.

Just remember you MUST remove your overcenter spring. It's really not that bad to do. Put the clutch pedal on the floor and slide (ok wedge) some metal shims between the coils of the spring. When you've loaded the spring coils up with shims, return the clutch pedal and the spring will fall off. Or you can go after it with a pry bar and hope it doesn't take anything important with it on the way out. :realcrazy:
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He^^ nailed it. This is the easiest way to remove the spring. I did this on Chevy hood springs. You can also load the replacement spring the same way. Use a floor jack. Hook one and on the front wheels the other on the underside of the jack cup. Jack up the jack and load the new spring with washers. I use to use the B&B Zoom and Scheafers years ago, bent linkage welded reinforcements to the pedal linkage. Hold it down at a traffic light till your left leg quivers. Nah I would pick the diaphragm.
 
yellow rose said:
Yup, i have an aversion to junk.
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No, you have an aversion to things you don't understand, and you don't seem to understand that technology has improved in the last 30 years. Newsflash, it has.

And recommending a sof-lok for a street car with a stock 273 is total lunacy. The car we're talking about will at best have a "warmed up 5.9". Pretty much anything off the shelf will be sufficient. Even the clutch and disk I'm running is good for 500hp and would be totally overkill for the OP. A good old regular McLeod diaphragm clutch with an organic disk will last 100k miles in the OP's car.
 
72bluNblu said:
No, you have an aversion to things you don't understand, and you don't seem to understand that technology has improved in the last 30 years. Newsflash, it has.

And recommending a sof-lok for a street car with a stock 273 is total lunacy. The car we're talking about will at best have a "warmed up 5.9". Pretty much anything off the shelf will be sufficient. Even the clutch and disk I'm running is good for 500hp and would be totally overkill for the OP. A good old regular McLeod diaphragm clutch with an organic disk will last 100k miles in the OP's car.
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And the chances of it being driven 100k by me are slim. I've had the car 9 years now and noted to the wife on our last cruise, "huh, I've just turned 10k miles since i bought this car." At this rate it'd be 90 years to go 100k and i just don't see that happening! :)

Although, once I achieve my goal s of pro-touring type of set up, i plan on putting many more miles on her. And Im getting there......
 
Removing the over center spring is like a 60 second job. Cut off wheel. Just be ready for a pretty big bang. Kinda surprises you the first time.
 
With all due respect, i want to keep th oc spring in case i ever have to use it again. The wahser method is so simple.

I make bronze brake and clutch pedal bushings (and sell them) and thus have had many clutch springs out many times. It ain't that hard.

Best
 
72bluNblu said:
No, you have an aversion to things you don't understand, and you don't seem to understand that technology has improved in the last 30 years. Newsflash, it has.

And recommending a sof-lok for a street car with a stock 273 is total lunacy. The car we're talking about will at best have a "warmed up 5.9". Pretty much anything off the shelf will be sufficient. Even the clutch and disk I'm running is good for 500hp and would be totally overkill for the OP. A good old regular McLeod diaphragm clutch with an organic disk will last 100k miles in the OP's car.
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I have forgotten more about clutches than you will ever learn, thank you very much.

As I said, junk is JUNK at any price. BTW, I use a Sof-Lok in a DD and drive it all the time. So does my wife.

If it's a stock or even a warmed over 273 then you can use a factory clutch.

As I said, a diaphram is a contraception device. That is all.

Or, if you are a cheep ***, you can make one as a pressure plate cover. That's why they are so popular. They are cheep to make, nonadjustable, and virtually worthless for anything but a stock application. Again, if it's for a stock application 273, use a stocker.


Geebus you guys love to justify spending bad money and convincing other guys to do it too.
 
yellow rose said:
I have forgotten more about clutches than you will ever learn, thank you very much.

As I said, junk is JUNK at any price. BTW, I use a Sof-Lok in a DD and drive it all the time. So does my wife.

If it's a stock or even a warmed over 273 then you can use a factory clutch.

As I said, a diaphram is a contraception device. That is all.

Or, if you are a cheep ***, you can make one as a pressure plate cover. That's why they are so popular. They are cheep to make, nonadjustable, and virtually worthless for anything but a stock application. Again, if it's for a stock application 273, use a stocker.


Geebus you guys love to justify spending bad money and convincing other guys to do it too.
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Whatever you say.

The McLeod diaphragm clutch in my 400+ hp street car works great, no issues whatsoever. And because it works so well, and so much better than a stock set up, I have absolutely no reservations about recommending it to other folks with similar applications. And I'll keep doing exactly that, because it's a good clutch for the application I'm using it in. Maybe if I was trying to tell some guy with a 9 second bracket car to use one you'd have a point, but you literally recommended that a guy with a stock 273 "step up" and run a soft lok. That's beyond spending "bad money", it's completely ridiculous. Even if he could do it and it worked great, there's absolutely no reason to spend $2k on a clutch for a street car with a sub 500hp small block (or in this case, sub 200hp). It's a complete waste of money. The clutch he bought will probably last the life of the car. And it will never need to be tuned or adjusted either.
 
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