j par
Well-hung Member
Let me be the first to say.... 
Diaphragm vs. Borg and Beck.............
- Thread starter ValiantOne
- Start date
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yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Yep. The birth control guys get butt hurt easy.
weedburner
Well-Known Member
Hey yellow rose-
how do you go about tuning your clutch, do you use a data logger?
how do you go about tuning your clutch, do you use a data logger?
Oh look, he started in with the name calling. Again. I'm not offended, you're simply just wrong in this case. All I did was point that out. I simply said, several times, that what you're suggesting is totally unnecessary. Ok, I called it lunacy. But spending $2k on a clutch for a 200 hp car is lunacy. Your set up probably works great for a 9 second drag car. Your incredible knowledge of clutch tuning may even allow you to run it with ease on the street, even if I think you're stretching the truth on that since you're so unwilling to explain how it is you actually manage that. Regardless, there's no reason to use one in this instance. None. And you've given no evidence or proof to show otherwise, just the usual ill will and name calling.
If you were truly an expert you would know that recommending a $2k clutch when a $300 one will do is in fact lunacy. No different than recommending a $300 clutch when a $2k clutch is needed, it shows the same lack of knowledge. Clutch tuning is a great skill to have, but unfortunately 90% of the people on this board have absolutely no need for it whatsoever because they can run off the shelf "junk" that will last the life of their cars trouble free without having to do any tuning at all. Anything more is just a waste of money and time for a vast majority of cases.
Good luck. Many people, myself included, have legitimately asked yellow rose to explain his process and set up in multiple other threads, so that they might actually try and learn from his supposed immense knowledge. He's never explained, he typically gets defensive like he has here already and basically just keeps saying that if the rest of us knew what he knows we'd all run the same thing as him. Of course, he's never actually said what he runs beyond saying it has a sintered iron disk and a Long/B&B cover, so, it would be difficult to know even if someone was running the same set up as him.
Based on your wonderful explanation of modern diaphragm clutches earlier in this thread, I'd be willing to bet you have nothing to learn here, even if yellow rose is truly the expert he claims to be.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
What I said was I dislike diaphram pressure plates. I would use a B&B PP long before I would use a cheap *** diaphram.
You know why the diaphram PP was developed? It was cheaper. It's cheaper to manufacture. That's it. It's not trick, or any more trick than anything else. I know you got sucked in by marketing. Sort of like dual disc clutches...they are all the rage. But they are worthless for anything except trailer queens and bench racers.
I data log weed burner. But I disagree with about 98% of what you say. Not a fan of using screen door parts to control a clutch you can't adjust. And it's not just me that thinks that. Never seen a Comp guy use screen door parts. Never seen a stocker or super stocker use that crap either. Don't be offended. We just disagree.
You know why the diaphram PP was developed? It was cheaper. It's cheaper to manufacture. That's it. It's not trick, or any more trick than anything else. I know you got sucked in by marketing. Sort of like dual disc clutches...they are all the rage. But they are worthless for anything except trailer queens and bench racers.
I data log weed burner. But I disagree with about 98% of what you say. Not a fan of using screen door parts to control a clutch you can't adjust. And it's not just me that thinks that. Never seen a Comp guy use screen door parts. Never seen a stocker or super stocker use that crap either. Don't be offended. We just disagree.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Jesus Christ, you want me to teach you how to tune a clutch from a web site? That's just stupid.
First, YOU HAVE YO HAVE A CLUTCH THAT YOU CAN TUNE. THAT AINT A DIAPHRAM.
You can get by without a data logger but it takes more time.
You need to understand base pressure and counterweight, and how RPM and gear splits affect them. And much more than that. It can't be taught on a web site. Jesus some people are thick headed.
You need to rent a track, spend the day making passes. If you don't want to do that, they make powerglides.
School is out.
YR you sucked me in to replying to this thread thou I told myself you weren't going to do. There are people that have a library of knowledge but make lousy teachers cause they don't have the ability to convey what they know. Then their are those arm chair quarterbacks that spout off numbers and claim of vast knowledge that really don't know ****. I don't which you are,nor do I care. You are obnoxious, keyboard bully that live to agitate others. You did it to me,RRR and others in previous posts. I'm done putting up with your BS. That is why I love the ignore button.
weedburner
Well-Known Member
There's a lot of "monkey see, monkey do" in drag racing. Don't expect the guys using my stuff to point it out, hard to maintain any competitive advantage if they did. I can't tell you who most of my customers are, but many make more power than a competitive single disc can hold. There's also a few record holders sprinkled in. Some stick classes have even added rules to keep us out.
Here's a link to one of my customers that does not mind being "outed". He's Hilborn's EFI tech guy, who had big problem with his '56 Chev street car breaking Dana 60's. My ClutchTamer was a last minute fix for him, he called a week or so ago thanking me for saving his Drag Week... Drag Week 2016 | Hilborn Fuel Injection
I also have an easier to hide version that does exactly the same thing as the "screen door parts", just much less convenient to adjust. It's a relatively small threaded body cylinder that was originally developed for industrial motion control, basically controlled slowing/stopping of a moving part. Easy to hide, mounts much like a clutch switch...
The threaded body version can also be mounted under the car, to control the clutch release at the clutch fork. Much harder to detect down there in the tunnel.
I think its very obvious to anyone that pays attention that Yellow Rose know his crap. Your right about the keyboard warriors that spout numbers and info that they have never actually used or have experience in. That's why out of thousands of members there is a small amount of people I actually take advice and try to learn from. i dont need to list these guys but YR is def one of them. I think its a mistake to get on an internet forum and take things personal. Y'all need to quit acting like girls and get on with the clutch discussion. I'm about ready to put a fresh 383 into my 69 4 speed car and am trying to decide what to get. I cant afford a soft lok right now and even if I could I wouldn't know how to tune it.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Then put me on ignore. What you don't like is my opinion. That's cool. But a lifetime of running sticks when everyone else was going to glides gives me the RIGHT to correct people when they are wrong.
While not everyone needs a Sof-Lok style clutch, drive thru queens aren't the only ones who read these posts. Some one else may read it and get something out of it.
And to weed burner...if you have a customer breaking D60's he deserves to run your junk. Their is a WORLD of difference between counterweight locking up a clutch, and screen door parts letting a clutch slip. Absolutely ridiculous. Clutch slip and clutch APPLICATION are two entirely two different things.
I'll check with a couple of friends to see how many Stock/Super Stock/Comp guys are running your ****. No one farts around those guys without someone figuring it out. Bullshit is cheap. So is a bandaid where you need an amputation.
weedburner
Well-Known Member
That difference is more area under the rpm curve for screen door part control of clamp pressure vs centrifugal application of clamp pressure. It's the same reason the TF/FC guys use timers to limit centrifugal assist at the throwout bearing early in the run. The advantage is basically that controlled slipping of the clutch nets a higher average rpm, which allows the engine to produce more power strokes over the duration of the run...more area under the rpm trace.
Centrifugal control of clamp pressure forces you to start below the clutch's lockup rpm and "drive into it" to be effective. That's where SoftLoc gets it's name. What they don't tell you is that after you launch, that centrifugal application of clamp pressure after the shifts is anything but soft. Just look at your rpm traces after you make a WOT shift- that SoftLoc locks up so hard that it jerks your rpm almost straight down, until rpm is pulled down far enough for the clutch to start slipping again. The screen door parts method does not add clamp pressure with rpm, so the clutch can begin meaningful slipping after a WOT shift as soon as you pull your foot off the clutch pedal. The result is that rpm drop after the shift is more diagonal on the graph, which adds area under the rpm trace.
NMRA classes such as Coyote Stock are required to use spec crate engines, spec transmission & ratios, and diaphragm PP's, an attempt to keep the playing field more level between the haves and the have nots. Ace came out with a centrifugal assist diaphragm PP which is legal there, but skirts the intent of those cost control rules. Guys that stepped up were used to shimming their diaphragm PP's nearly every run to keep clamp load in it's sweet spot. Centrifugal assist looked like a way to greatly reduce clutch maintenance, didn't take them long to figure out that centrifugal assist lowered their average rpm vs shimming.
whitepunkonnitro
Well-Known Member
Diaphragm clutches are inferior, period.
Fine for a grocery getter, but have no place in a competition car.
If you've ever had one hang open during a 7 grand powershift...or have the fingers go limp, out of the blue, because of heat and fatigue, you know the pain.
Fine for a grocery getter, but have no place in a competition car.
If you've ever had one hang open during a 7 grand powershift...or have the fingers go limp, out of the blue, because of heat and fatigue, you know the pain.
weedburner
Well-Known Member
No problem here, way past 7k on a RAM diaphragm.
ValiantOne
Well-Known Member
Well I had no idea what was going to transpire when i asked my question. Lol.
So my original postulation of, "neither side can agree on JACK!", has indeed proved to be true here on FABO too......
As mentioned I went with the McLeod diaphragm, scalloped plate, etc. Somehow I think it wil survive behind my 273. In fact i think it may do okay behind the eventual warmed up 360. Time will tell!
So my original postulation of, "neither side can agree on JACK!", has indeed proved to be true here on FABO too......
As mentioned I went with the McLeod diaphragm, scalloped plate, etc. Somehow I think it wil survive behind my 273. In fact i think it may do okay behind the eventual warmed up 360. Time will tell!
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
You are being disingenuous to the point of being a liar. You know F'ing A well a fuel clutch is nothing like what this post is about. You are talking about 5 or 6 disc clutches that get serviced EVERY RUN and they don't mind wearing out discs that cost $200.00 or more each.
F'ing rediculous. I didn't even read the rest of the **** you posted after that.
People, be aware of people who tell you the clutch has to slip to work. It is a controlled application of the clutch, where the pressure plate is down on the disc fully, not being held apart by parts that are used in a screen door.
This stuff is out there. People will talk to you. They will help you. But you can't do **** like this and expect anyone to help you.
It is 100% about the controlled application of the clutch. You can't do it with a diaphram. You can do it with a B&B. You can do it with a B&B/Long. You can do it with a Long. You just have to work harder with the first two.
There was also some bullshit about coil springs losing clamping load faster that a diaphram. That is wrong. ANY spring is subject to load loss. Mostly from heat. A diaphram is not immune to this, or any better. So keep slipping your clutch, eating up discs and wasting your time.
They sell you a diaphram because it's cheaper to make. The manufacturer makes more profit for unit sold. Simple as that.
weedburner
Well-Known Member
If you really had control over it, would you still want your SoftLoc hit so hard after the shift?
It was about coils losing clamp load at a faster rate as the disc wears thinner. Might want to read up on the characteristics of a belleville spring.
So you're thinking there's more profit in a cheap diaphragm than in a $1200 SoftLoc?
Yeah, see what you started! lol
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Damn you are hard headed, but I keep in mind you are trying to sell something.
1). If you can't get the plate pressure down at the shift, you are doing it wrong. If you have the CW correct, you won't see the RPM drop, but the clutch won't be locked up. It can't be.
2). Been dealing with Belleville springs since I bought my first Maico. When you use them in a stack, the represent a significant reduction in pressure decrease with heat. The diaphram is a single spring. Sounds like you need to do some study.
3). Your damn right there is more profit in that cheap ****. If you knew anything, you would know if something costs "X" to manufacture and you can't charge for it, the dollar amount goes up but the profit goes down. So yes, there is less profit in the Sof-Lok. Again, simple math and you are struggling with it.
weedburner
Well-Known Member
How do you get the plate pressure down at the shift when the engine is at it's maximum rpm and your foot is flat on the floor?
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
If it takes you that long to pull the lever you need to get a powerglide.
You rely too much on CW. It's the new "in" thing. Use less counter. More base. As the pedal comes out it should pull the engine down, or you are slipping the clutch.
Edit: I should say for years I didn't data log. For years I didn't even use CW. I only used the CW the lever provided. I can easily get 125 to 150 runs out of a disc and the last one had almost 10k street miles on it. Low base and an *** load of CW just wears the disc. Again, if it's Comp or up, you can afford that. So keep pedaling your junk.
BTW, talked to a couple of Stocker friends. They don't know anyone doing what you are doing. One in fact, said if NHRA changed the rule on clutches he'd be done with his diaphram today. But you know how to muddy the water with peripheral crap to distract from the truth. That's why you throw TF clutches into a discussion about a stock type clutch.
Better look up the words disingenuous and dissemble.
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weedburner
Well-Known Member
What is the benefit of any counter at all unless you are clutchless?
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
weedburner
Well-Known Member
Why would you want to use less base?
ValiantOne
Well-Known Member
Let me be the first to say....
You weren't kidding.........
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