Hey parts vendors, how about INCLUDING A DECENT SET OF INSTRUCTIONS in with the products you sell?

[Kern Dog]

This can change if the public takes a stand. It sounds like a pipe dream to some but enough people boycotted a beer and a department store to where they changed their marketing strategies.

I do intend to ask the next company if they include directions IF I'm able to speak with a live person. I will be making my buying decisions based on their responses.

 

[Kern Dog]

Boy is that the truth. I have no goddam clue what 98% of the stupid little symbols mean on everything - my truck's dash, the washing machine, my air conditioner, microwave etc. Don't get me started on the Canon EOS. Without the 200 page manual (150 pages of disclaimers and legal bullshit), I can't do anything except take a still photo in Auto mode.

I used a label printer to convert the panel on a new de humidifier that gets used very rarely to actual english words so next time I use it I'll have it running in a few seconds by hitting the right button right away.

I wouldn't mind paying an extra $50 for the same fridge that just said CRUSHED ICE or CHANGE FILTER, instead of making me play Pictionary every time.

And then there's saving the planet by throwing away the non-english 7/8 of the mostly useless instructions.

The I and O on a kill switch annoys me. I hate that stuff is sold in America without English letters to denote functions.

 

[Charrlie_S]

If the average person wasn't so below average it would be easier to provide instructions

So, this is what you think of your customers. What do you sell? Just so I know what not to purchase.

 

[Kern Dog]

At first, the posts from Phreakish pissed me off.
Looking again, he does make some sense. I've been slow to realize that I am not the average consumer, the average citizen or the average person nowadays. I feel that I haven't changed much but society has changed around me....a LOT.
I want some things that might be considered traditional by today's standards.
If I had to work customer service, I'd be fired the first day. I couldn't keep my opinions to myself if I had to deal with one idiot after another IF what Phreakish writes is what he actually deals with.
I'm not exaggerating in my statements here.
The 5 speed swap kit from SST came with excellent instructions. I only called them for ONE thing and it was about their suggestion to use DOT 3 fluid in the clutch reservoir. I wanted to use DOT 5.
My Classic Auto Air kit had crappy instructions.
The Dr Diff brakes had some but they missed a few things that could have been mentioned.
I bought an auto dimming rearview mirror with temperature and compass. It had excellent instructions. The Dakota Digital stuff was great too.
This topic...I'm not just pulling this subject out of thin air. It is a real problem.
My point here was to confirm what I thought....That I wasn't the only one that was frustrated with how some companies operate. If guys like "Phreakish" read what we wrote and let it soak in, maybe something might improve.
If he does write technical data sheets that go unappreciated, I can understand his frustration. I hate to put myself out there to help someone and find zero gratitude for my efforts.

 

[mopowers]

Looking again, he does make some sense. I've been slow to realize that I am not the average consumer, the average citizen or the average person nowadays. I feel that I haven't changed much but society has changed around me....a LOT.

Unfortunately, common sense just isn't as common as it should be.

 

[Charrlie_S]

The vast majority of stuff like this is sold to pros anyway. They know what they're doing. Trying to educate the masses is an exercise in futility.

If the "pros" knew what they were doing, think of how much money the auto manufacturers could save by not making service manuals.
Not all of us were born knowing everything about everything.

 

[Bobacuda]

How have instructions changed?

Get an owners manual for a 50’s or older car. They not only tell you all operating and maintenance stuff, they would tell you how to shift the 3 on the tree and drive the car. The FSM’s are much more in depth.

Do you know what a “Sears House” is? Sears would sell a package with everything to build a house, with full instructions, and people that were not professional contractors or construction workers could build them.

Are you familiar with the old Heath Kits electronics? Same thing. The directions were so good that a non-electronic tech person could build a nice stereo, or a color TV, from a box of parts.

Just saying, if the instructions are complete and well written, it’s on the end user if things go sideways. However, if the instructions are poorly written or missing, that’s on the folks making the product.

 

[Bobacuda]

One last thing. When I was 19 yrs old, 80% of every military aircraft I was around was completely maintained and repaired by other 19-23 yr olds with very limited experience that were not professional aircraft mechanics or electronic techs, but we had DAMN good FSM’s and instructions to work with. The contractor’s that built the aircraft and systems were required to provide that info.

I’m willing to bet it’s still that way with military aircraft.

 

[Kern Dog]

Facts from Bob.
Thank you.

 

[Phreakish]

At first, the posts from Phreakish pissed me off.
Looking again, he does make some sense. I've been slow to realize that I am not the average consumer, the average citizen or the average person nowadays. I feel that I haven't changed much but society has changed around me....a LOT.
I want some things that might be considered traditional by today's standards.
If I had to work customer service, I'd be fired the first day. I couldn't keep my opinions to myself if I had to deal with one idiot after another IF what Phreakish writes is what he actually deals with.
I'm not exaggerating in my statements here.
The 5 speed swap kit from SST came with excellent instructions. I only called them for ONE thing and it was about their suggestion to use DOT 3 fluid in the clutch reservoir. I wanted to use DOT 5.
My Classic Auto Air kit had crappy instructions.
The Dr Diff brakes had some but they missed a few things that could have been mentioned.
I bought an auto dimming rearview mirror with temperature and compass. It had excellent instructions. The Dakota Digital stuff was great too.
This topic...I'm not just pulling this subject out of thin air. It is a real problem.
My point here was to confirm what I thought....That I wasn't the only one that was frustrated with how some companies operate. If guys like "Phreakish" read what we wrote and let it soak in, maybe something might improve.
If he does write technical data sheets that go unappreciated, I can understand his frustration. I hate to put myself out there to help someone and find zero gratitude for my efforts.

You got it, and I do realize the frustration on the customer end, but at the end of the day everything is business. If firing 50% of customers for being dumb increases the bottom line, that's not a me problem. It's a people problem.

I'm not arguing against having excellent documentation. I think it should be the carse for everything, but it's not that easy with just everything.

I didn't mean to derail if the intention was to discuss this AC system in particular. I read it more as a rant against companies who's instructions might not be totally complete in all cases or might leave room for interpretation that could cause extra time to be spent because I the grand scheme those kinds of issues are pretty low priorityc(high priority would be breaking things or causing irreparable damage). I only wanted to point out that manuals are an extreme investment of time and effort and they're not always worth it depending on the product. Variation in applications can make it impossible to document every possible variable.

If you ran into issues that weren't documented and maybe should be, a helpful suggestion that includes some detail and photos will likely help them out. You might even parlay that into some credit from them too. After all, I'm certain no one designed their manual to waste an afternoon of your time by missing a detail or two. What one person takes as common sense another might see as esoteric knowledge.

 

[Phreakish]

How have instructions changed?

Get an owners manual for a 50’s or older car. They not only tell you all operating and maintenance stuff, they would tell you how to shift the 3 on the tree and drive the car. The FSM’s are much more in depth.

Do you know what a “Sears House” is? Sears would sell a package with everything to build a house, with full instructions, and people that were not professional contractors or construction workers could build them.

Are you familiar with the old Heath Kits electronics? Same thing. The directions were so good that a non-electronic tech person could build a nice stereo, or a color TV, from a box of parts.

Just saying, if the instructions are complete and well written, it’s on the end user if things go sideways. However, if the instructions are poorly written or missing, that’s on the folks making the product.

These days some numbskull would hit their head with a hammer and then sue sears (and win) for not including the proper hard hat and high vis gear. Every instruction is subject to interpretation, and the bar for common sense is lowered with every generation. Even if you kept up with the mental decline, someone will sue for it not being in their particular dialect of their self identified native language..

Warnings aren't legally effective enough to avoid liability in all cases. It's not just the companies selling things that are responsible for the dumbing down of our nation.

 

[Phreakish]

One last thing. When I was 19 yrs old, 80% of every military aircraft I was around was completely maintained and repaired by other 19-23 yr olds with very limited experience that were not professional aircraft mechanics or electronic techs, but we had DAMN good FSM’s and instructions to work with. The contractor’s that built the aircraft and systems were required to provide that info.

I’m willing to bet it’s still that way with military aircraft.

There's entire careers built writing those manuals and there's training and knowledge that goes along with those manuals. Apples and oranges.

In a perfect world, those types of manuals would definitely accompany every item sold. But people whine about socket sets costing more than $50, you think they're going to spend 2-3x on an item because of the manual they get to toss before they install it? I'd bet not.

That's the core part of my point: people are too cheap to pay for quality, at any cost. We have members here who literally advise people to buy knockoff items to save a few hundred bucks instead of supporting companies doing what we wish all of them would. Most people would sell their own mother's down the river to save a couple bucks, it's sad. But when that's reality, what we get us what we're getting.

 

[RustyRatRod]

One last thing. When I was 19 yrs old, 80% of every military aircraft I was around was completely maintained and repaired by other 19-23 yr olds with very limited experience that were not professional aircraft mechanics or electronic techs, but we had DAMN good FSM’s and instructions to work with. The contractor’s that built the aircraft and systems were required to provide that info.

I’m willing to bet it’s still that way with military aircraft.

You left something out. Yall had COMMON SENSE too. That's severely lacking these days.

 

[Kern Dog]

"Esoteric" ???

 

[Phreakish]

You left something out. Yall had COMMON SENSE too. That's severely lacking these days.

Ding ding ding ding ding... LOL

So severely.

The collective of human knowledge at our fingertips, yet people find ways to avoid learning every chance they get!

 

[Phreakish]

"Esoteric" ???

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I could tell you customer service stories that would make you support 173rd trimester abortion, lmao.

I've seen people return product because it was vacuum sealed in 20mil plastic but we didn't include a knife to open it and "I can't be expected to have the appropriate tools for such an operation, you guys suck!" - not even the worst customer ever.

 

[Kern Dog]

The dumbing down of society has had a FAR reaching effect. The trend of accepting poor behavior isn't helping matters either.
People need to go back to having respect for others and NOT thinking that they deserve special treatment.
I hear radio ads all the time for a variety of products.....get the widget YOU DESERVE.....
Who says that they deserve anything? What did they do to deserve it? Too many people have the entitlement mentality and that is a cancer on society.
"Ask not what your country can do for you....." is a completely lost concept for most people.
I agree on the "people want it cheap" comment but again, I am not one of those people. Clearly, I am an outsider, a step away from the norm. I must be fighting against the tide here.
I want a quality product at a fair price. If I get a good deal on a quality product, I tell everyone that will listen. I am very outspoken.
I don't buy the cheapest of anything unless it is obvious that there is no difference in quality between the cheap stuff and the higher priced stuff.

 

[Phreakish]

If he does write technical data sheets that go unappreciated, I can understand his frustration. I hate to put myself out there to help someone and find zero gratitude for my efforts.

I'll add this because I think it's worth mentioning. It's not just the lack of gratitude. That doesn't bug me. I ignore manuals all the time and don't think twice about the guys who wrote the ones I read. What bugs me is the outright hostility that people seem to respond with these days. Use the "wrong" (even when technically correct) word and people will go ham on your customer service people. Use too many words to describe a "simple" operation and they'll lose their crap too. Give a torque value and they'll expect you to include the damn torque wrench (and will always mix in pounds and ft pounds, every damn time).

People are soft and sensitive these days and they feel no need to hold back against "corporations" because rarely does a company fight back against a customer - we do share stupid emails and laugh at them though. A lot.

When we start spending more time "helping" customers through their inability to read than we do fixing real issues, the instructions become a hinderance. If anyone thinks it's possible to write stuff to be universally understood - it's not. That's why we get pictogram these days too. Yay for the lowest common denominator, right?

Its easier to answer a customer's detailed question than it is to write 47 pages of legally-approved and non binding direction with 283 warnings not to gouge your eye out with a screwdriver or use the provided tool for self pleasure....

Usually if the same detailed question happens enough, manuals get updated. But in my experience, every customer is different and so the questions vary a lot too and conditional directions (if this, then that, else do this..) are impossible for 75% of people to follow - no joke.

 

[Phreakish]

The dumbing down of society has had a FAR reaching effect. The trend of accepting poor behavior isn't helping matters either.
People need to go back to having respect for others and NOT thinking that they deserve special treatment.
I hear radio ads all the time for a variety of products.....get the widget YOU DESERVE.....
Who says that they deserve anything? What did they do to deserve it? Too many people have the entitlement mentality and that is a cancer on society.
"Ask not what your country can do for you....." is a completely lost concept for most people.
I agree on the "people want it cheap" comment but again, I am not one of those people. Clearly, I am an outsider, a step away from the norm. I must be fighting against the tide here.
I want a quality product at a fair price. If I get a good deal on a quality product, I tell everyone that will listen. I am very outspoken.
I don't buy the cheapest of anything unless it is obvious that there is no difference in quality between the cheap stuff and the higher priced stuff.

We agree on a lot, lol. But sadly we don't represent the norm.

I also get the cheapskates. Not everyone can afford name brand. The hobby shouldn't be shutoff to those who can't.

But... It has a real effect when companies have to compete against their own innovations which have been ripped off by others who didn't need to invest in the same R&D. Patents aren't perfect, and aren't cheap either. Enforcing IP laws also isn't free. But that's another rant, even if it is related.

 

[toolmanmike]

I'll add this because I think it's worth mentioning. It's not just the lack of gratitude. That doesn't bug me. I ignore manuals all the time and don't think twice about the guys who wrote the ones I read. What bugs me is the outright hostility that people seem to respond with these days. Use the "wrong" (even when technically correct) word and people will go ham on your customer service people. Use too many words to describe a "simple" operation and they'll lose their crap too. Give a torque value and they'll expect you to include the damn torque wrench (and will always mix in pounds and ft pounds, every damn time).

People are soft and sensitive these days and they feel no need to hold back against "corporations" because rarely does a company fight back against a customer - we do share stupid emails and laugh at them though. A lot.

When we start spending more time "helping" customers through their inability to read than we do fixing real issues, the instructions become a hinderance. If anyone thinks it's possible to write stuff to be universally understood - it's not. That's why we get pictogram these days too. Yay for the lowest common denominator, right?

Its easier to answer a customer's detailed question than it is to write 47 pages of legally-approved and non binding direction with 283 warnings not to gouge your eye out with a screwdriver or use the provided tool for self pleasure....

Usually if the same detailed question happens enough, manuals get updated. But in my experience, every customer is different and so the questions vary a lot too and conditional directions (if this, then that, else do this..) are impossible for 75% of people to follow - no joke.

Exactly, and many of the products nowdays are assembly required and come from foreign countries. Lucky if you can get instructions printed in our language. I would rather go online and print out some good ones than try to read strange broken English printed on rice paper.

 

[Phreakish]

Exactly, and many of the products nowdays are assembly required and come from foreign countries. Lucky if you can get instructions printed in our language. I would rather go online and print out some good ones than try to read strange broken English printed on rice paper.

Yup. We all know most of those items are also bought when we see a picture of the "same" item at half the cost and we think "how bad could it really be?" LOL.

Then we get a box of garbage with that smell of cancer and regret wafting from the box and the broken English "manual" that also sounds vaguely threatening. I'm convinced the bad instructions are actually an effort to raise our collective blood pressure to kill us all off that much quicker!

 

[missing linc]

I could tell you customer service stories that would make you support 173rd trimester abortion, lmao.

I've seen people return product because it was vacuum sealed in 20mil plastic but we didn't include a knife to open it and "I can't be expected to have the appropriate tools for such an operation, you guys suck!" - not even the worst customer ever.

Reminds me of a joke from years ago about a guy calling tech support because his computer wouldn't turn on. After some discussion it was revealed that he had not plugged in the power cord. Tech support then told him to pack it all back into the box because he was clearly far too stupid to own a computer.

 

[Phreakish]

Reminds me of a joke from years ago about a guy calling tech support because his computer wouldn't turn on. After some discussion it was revealed that he had not plugged in the power cord. Tech support then told him to pack it all back into the box because he was clearly far too stupid to own a computer.

That guy bought from us last month! Hahaha.
He quite literally accused us of ripping him off and not sending a rather large and pricey item in his order. He even sent a photo, which showed the missing item clearly there, but he wouldn't hear it.

I think that's the crux of the matter. There's no manual good enough for the guy who can't figure out how to plug it in and there's a million more of them than the guy who is capable but needs some missing details. So it's easy (and cheap) to overlook the fixes that would help the guy with a clue.

I did write at least one manual that had a horrible mistake in it and we printed nearly 100k copies of it and after 7 years in the market we had a customer email in and ask "is this really right!?" - we had to scramble to redo things and update it, and we did. So it's not like I think anyone writing the instructions is somehow infallible either. But hell if that didn't tell me how often people read the damn thing! 100k+ copies and one guy (who cared to email us) noticed. Fixing it also didn't change our return or service rate, LOL.

 

[pittsburghracer]

Bought a little winch from HF. Lots of cya language in the instructions, but a fairlead is included, but no place to mount it, no instructions how to mount it
I guess if you want it to work right, figure it out and make it yourself.

If this is the 500 pound ceiling mount winch I did the same thing. Then I went to YouTube and watched a few videos. Then I went to Lowe’s and Home Depot to buy the needed channel and hangers which they didn’t have. So once again forced to go on Amazon and have them delivered to my house. I find myself doing that more and more. I needed a few mousetraps the other day. Boom Amazon.

 

[autoxcuda]

I helped Troy ( @ns1rm21 ) make 6 pages of detailed instruction for the Hemi Dart Super Stock well cutouts he sells. We even made custom diagrams for every major step in the process. With reference notes written on the cutout itself. I was really proud of the instructions we came up with.

I know people ask him for just the instructions... and the answer is NO. Creating the instructions took nearly as long as making the product itself.