Hughes "retro fit" lifter not pumping up!

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mullinax95

mullinax95

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Good day gents.... I just installed a Hughes roller cam into my 360 and one of the lifters is failing to pump up. The lifters that I'm talking about are these Hughes Lifters. I have gave Hughes a call and told them the problem.
The response was "There might be a spec of debris inside the lifter that will not allow it to pump up. Lifters are notorious for collecting debris on initial fire up engine that has been disassembled".
I realize anything can happen but all the lifters are pumping up except one. With the problems of debris and so forth in engine building I try to my upmost power to keep everything clean.
So... I removed the intake and head. I have Eddy heads and pulling these long *** lifters out without removing the head is impossible. Pulled the lifters out (two lifters connected with link bar)and cleaned them with brake cleaner and compressed air. The "good" lifter will allow air to blow through the oil hole that stays down inside the lifter bore but the "bad" lifter will not. These are oil through lifters so blowing air through the plunger into the lifter body. I would assume like most parts of a engine that if one part is doing (a) then the other part should do (a) as well. Took the lifter completely apart and did not see a spec of anything in the lifter. To be frank there is not alot to these lifters internally. Cleaned everything .... rebuilt the lifter and still no air blowing through the oil hole like it does in the good lifter.
This is very strange. Unless the lifter body is not machined correctly I don't have a clue what the problem could be.
Now one thing I have not gotten around to doing is submerging the lifter in oil and pumping it up manually. But upon my beliefs at this point if the good lifter has air blowing through the oil hole and the bad lifter doesn't then I will be wasting my time. I will however submerge/pump up the lifter just for the hell of it. If the lifter pumps up being submerged in oil then who is to say that it will pump up again inside the engine after it has bleed down? Think it would be OK?

Going to give Hughes a call Monday. I can imagine what they are going to tell me but trying to warranty the two lifters connected by link bar. There is only three scenarios that will most likely happen. (a) they will warranty the lifter (b) I will have to buy another lifter because I "damaged" it or used it so now it's my fault. (c) Hughes will not warranty the lifter or sell an individual lifter because they do not want to break up a whole set. This is a $400 set of lifters.
If the answer is (c) I will go past "coming loose" to totally "unglued" in about 5 secs.
The purpose of this thread is to get your opinion what could be wrong and also let everyone know how Hughes customer service handles this situation.
 
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Yep they are pretty simple. Take the good one apart and see if the parts inside are put in the same way in the 'bad' one. A check disc might be flipped over or something simple like that. No air going into the bad one from the lifter bore hole does not sound right. BTW, I assume there are the ones that have a machined 'waist band' all around....

I don't know if you noticed this, but the oil holes from the lifter gallery into the lifter bores can be smaller in some areas versus others This is because the finish drilling of the galleries is done deeper and deeper in the galleries with progressively smaller drills. (To make the machining easier). Any smaller hole from the lifter gallery not reach as high up on the body of the lifter and might not be getting oil to the waist band on that lifter. Just make sure that the waist band on the 'bad' lifter is reaching the oil gallery hole in the lifter bore during part of the lifter stroke.

And my son's 340 block did not have part of one lifter gallery finish drilled at all, and the holes from the lifter gallery into the bores were REALLY small in that area. So odd things can show up ....
 
Do your lifter internals consist of the following...Lock clip, Push rod cup, Plunger, Check ball, Check ball spring, Check Ball retainer and last the plunger spring?
Not much that can go wrong in there other than the already stated debris keeping the ball from seating properly. Are your push rods oil through or solid? Obvious conclusion other than debris would be a burr on the ball seat or excessive machining clearances causing bind or leak down or tight machining clearance causing bind...perhaps scoring or galling causing bind. Don't know what the tolerances are but I would suspect a near wipe fit between the bore and plunger. My guess would be an issue in the check ball retainer machining not allowing the ball to move away from the seat if you cant blow air through it like the "good one" but all the check ball is supposed to do is allow oil into the pressure chamber when the valve is closed. Never had one of these apart...if it's got a check disc the principal of operation is the same. I would swap the retainer and ball from the bad one to the good one and see if the problem follows the parts. if it doesn't, the next thing I would swap is the plunger. Like mentioned above, if it's a disc...check orientation. I don't know, either the check valve system isn't allowing oil into the pressure chamber or isn't closing completely to retain pressure in the chamber or the metered bleed back between the bore and plunger back to the reservoir clearance is too large not allowing pressure to be retained in the lower pressure chamber.
I'm about to get mine going with the same cam and lifters...wish me luck.
 
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FOUND THE PROBLEM!
The bad lifter has not been machined correctly near the oil hole that resides in the lifter bore. As you look at the pictures you can see the night and day difference. If one buys these lifters the only way to know for sure that the lifters are going to pump up is (a) put them in ...run them and hope for the best (b) take each lifter apart and see that they have been machined correctly around the oil hole or (c) pump them up manually by hand. Hughes states on their website just wipe them off, apply 10w30 on the outside and on the roller. So I did as I was instructed and now I had to take the intake back off as well as the head because I didn't soak them or pump them up manually. Thanks Hughes! THANKS FOR HAVING TO TEAR DOWN THE ENGINE AGAIN!!

With the machined groove the oil hole is much bigger than without it being machined. In the bad lifter without the machined groove the oil hole is very small. It's there but it is nothing like the size it should be compared to the good lifter that was pumping up.
Good lifter
IMG_3505.JPG


BAD lifter
IMG_3503.JPG
 
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So does that crescent shaped area let the oil in from the waist band hole to flow around to all the right places? I am not sure I am following your whole explanation...

Well, at least you found it.... frustrating.

I am not knocking Hughes in particular but when we got some new shafts and rockers, the shafts don't get the interior machining oil and debris (left form boring the center gallery in the shafts) cleaned out before the surface hardening process. It took FOREVER to clean that baked-in crud out of there... a real pain for the end user for skimping a simple cleaning step. (At least their instructions clearly inform you that you do indeed need to clean that gallery out before use.)
 
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nm9stheham said:
So does that crescent shaped area let the oil in from the waist band hole to flow around to all the right places? I am not sure I am following your whole explanation...
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When the crescent area is machined it makes the oil hole diameter larger because the hole is drilled at a angle into the lifter body. A lot larger in comparison.
 
Obvious imperfection aside, those lifters look like they were machined at different places, or on different machines.

Those lifters are expensive and that big of a mistake shouldn't have happened. Hughes quality control has become null as the company gets larger. Had 3 bad valve guides on a set of RHS heads. 2 like an hourglass and 1 like a barrel.
 
Talked to Dave Hughes on the phone today at lunch time. Told him the deal and that I have sent him a email with the pictures of the lifters... good ... and bad. The same pictures as above. Well he tells me that he is on dial up and it takes forever for emails to come in. I sent him the email yesterday...???


He tells me "I'll get someone on it and will get back in contact and get you back on the road." I never heard from anyone but just got a UPS return label sent to my email. They want me to return the lifters to them. Then I'm thinking what about the new lifters or what are they up too... they want the old lifters in hand before they send out the new ones???? So I give them a call and ask for Dave. He gets on the phone and before I can say anything... "We have shipped out you a pair of lifters so you're taking care of. I say "So I don't have to return these right away?" He says "No just return the old lifters after you get the new lifters using the same box.... Ok... Hav.." But I interrupt and ask "Can you tell me what happened?" This when I could tell I lit his candle. He starts getting short breathed. He said "There is no way to tell....these lifters get processed by the thousands... we get you back on the road and all else is immaterial......OK" I was like "OK" then he said "Have a nice day" and that was it.


There was no apology whatsoever! There was no "I'm sorry you had this trouble and had to tear back into your engine" He didn't won't to speak about it anymore with me so he just up and sends out the new lifters to avoid speaking with me about his f@$K up. In which I have not received a tracking number for them ... only a return label for the old lifters.
I spend all this money with them ... bought heads from them, paid extra to have them super prepped, new intake, roller cam, roller lifters, gaskets, etc... and they never offered me a free t-shirt, coupon, or even a kiss my *** or "We appreciate your business".

I would like everyone to know if you are going to do business with Hughes engines then be prepared to get pissed off and **** on. I will never do business with them again. It was like it was MY fault that their lifter was machined wrong.
 
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this lifter issue is not just rooler hyd , but flat tapper hyd as well . hylift johnsons are the worthless , they supply most of the countries lifters . have had over 80ish flat tapper hyd just trying to find 16 that will hold the pump up state . every set has been a no go . now on to seal power from summit . i'll see . read a thread on an roller issue a member on fbbo was having with his 5.9 la with a factory roller set up . he thought meiling and seal power were junk too . i'll see and hear how these do . lifter manufactures suck , and qa is one blind guy checking nothing . heard comp cams sent back their new shipment of lifters for inconsistent quality . what are you to do . i scrapped out a couple v10 p/u engines . a kept the valve train parts , there were quite ones . well you need some thing to run on the bump stick , lol .
 
A "iam sorry man, your new ones will be next day aired" would be nice though
 
dgully said:
A "iam sorry man, your new ones will be next day aired" would be nice though
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Dave didn`t screw up the lifter, the company that made them did. Unfortunate ? Yes, all they can do is stand behind them. Sounds like u pissed him off. I have had very good luck w/ them, even returning stuff. They have taken new stuff back that I F-----UP and double ordered, as well as making a bad part good. Nothing bad to say about them.
 
I'm on my second set of comp hi energy lifters. First set had one tick at start up after sitting over night. This set has 2 ticking at start up even after sitting a couple hours. Shouldn't have to year apart a new set of lifters from ANY manufacturers to check them yourself, but I guess that's the world we're living in.
 
comp cams uses hylift johnsons . this is not just one cam suppliers issue . most don't make their own lifters , they buy to specs . and these specs aren't being met . and qa is only catching them on the returned ones .
 
Anyone know of issues with lifters from Lunati?
 
dgully said:
A "iam sorry man, your new ones will be next day aired" would be nice though
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Yeah you're right. Seems to me the world has lost polite people with balls. Anyone can be polite, apologize for ones misfortune that was brought upon them from their product, but apparently there is people that just don't have the balls to do it.

Dartish said:
I'm on my second set of comp hi energy lifters. First set had one tick at start up after sitting over night. This set has 2 ticking at start up even after sitting a couple hours. Shouldn't have to year apart a new set of lifters from ANY manufacturers to check them yourself, but I guess that's the world we're living in.
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I would be double pissed. :mob:

Tell you the truth I feel like I'm not out of the woods yet with these lifters. Kind hesitant about firing this engine up after I get it all back together. Might start hearing another lifter not pumping up.
 
Think I'm gonna take all mine apart and check em
 
Don't get me wrong! I've ordered all my 416 stroker stuff from Hughes... Roller rockers, stroker assembly, nut bolts etc. They have treated me well... And they sent me stuff that wasn't in my order and I was nice enough to send it back... He is a good guy but also he definitely has his opinion
 
lomchivok said:
Think I'm gonna take all mine apart and check em
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I had to file down the link bar stud, press it out, before the plunger would come out or any of the parts. I got the retainer out with no trouble but the plunger is like half inch long and it will not come out with the stud in the way. Basically destroying the lifter. I guess I should have mentioned that in my earlier post. The second one I said "F**K it" and just drilled it out because I was either going to buy one or Hughes was going to warranty it.
 
There are always going to be poorly machined parts...even in the aerospace industry. but bad customer service shouldn't follow. That's why Dave just lost his business. The parts are one thing but the, "dial up modem", the bad communication on the return and the idle promise of "someone will contact you" is what set the final nail.
 
well comp cams owns them an crane now i believe , info from my cam grinder . hows pulling his hair out over these lifter issues .
 
Hughes didn't manufacturer those lifters, he just sells them....he IS replacing them, "making them good" he just wasn't interested in having a long drawn out conversation about a defective part. **** happens, he's making it good. I don't see anything to cry about here.
 
Yeah, Dave is just as mad as OP is. that he has to put up with and lose money on turnover parts. He is probably more of a mechanic like us than a customer service rep. But everyone hates being lied to
 
i'm pretty sure these lifters are manufactured by Morel.
i got a set of these and a custom grind cam from Hughes for my 360/410 stroker. one of a pair of lifters was .020" larger on the od and would not go into the bore. contacted them be email and they sent a replacement right out. next problem was they were noisy. have tried more preload, less preload and everything in between but still noisy. am pulling them out and going back to solid FT.
 
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