Is there a true plug-n-play setup for a 5.7 with FI yet?

[Joe Dokes]

I wonder if I would be ahead just going Fast XFI since I know I couldnt leave the motor stock and would at least cam it and grind on the heads some. Seems a custom tune even emailed is a few hundred plus it might take a few swings to get it right and if you're not happy you are at the tuners mercy. I have nobody even remotely close with a dyno and the experience on Gen III's.

Standalone EFI solutions are not without their own issues.

First and foremost the FAST XFI system is nearly double the price of using a factory computer.

Second, tuning with a laptop is not that easy, though the software gets better with each iteration and the latest version of FAST software combined with a wideband O2 sensor allows for a great degree of self tuning. (I have no first hand knowledge of just how good the self tuning is, so take any "self tuning" claims with a grain of salt.)

Not trying to disaude you from going the FAST route, merely trying to lay out the costs and benefits of the decision. I decided to go the Megasuirt route, which has many of the benefits of the FAST system at about 1/2 to 1/3 the cost.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

 

[jrlegacy23]

Also remember, you will need a fuel pump set up for a Hemi swap. A newer corvette fuel filter will work for the set up and has a built in regulator witha return line. The hemi uses a returnless system like the LS1, so you will need something like this.

 

[jrlegacy23]

Standalone EFI solutions are not without their own issues.

First and foremost the FAST XFI system is nearly double the price of using a factory computer.

Second, tuning with a laptop is not that easy, though the software gets better with each iteration and the latest version of FAST software combined with a wideband O2 sensor allows for a great degree of self tuning. (I have no first hand knowledge of just how good the self tuning is, so take any "self tuning" claims with a grain of salt.)

Not trying to disaude you from going the FAST route, merely trying to lay out the costs and benefits of the decision. I decided to go the Megasuirt route, which has many of the benefits of the FAST system at about 1/2 to 1/3 the cost.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

Don't you also need a 4-barrel intake for this set up? That is another $899, unless you go through XV Motorsports, then it is only you first born.

 

[Uhcoog1]

Joe was referring to the ~$3000 FAST XFI made specifically for the Hemi that includes a 92mm TB with adapter to fit the 6.1 /5.7 intake.

For plug and play, never gonna mod the motor, the factory computer is THE answer.

When you start modding, it's not as clear cut.

Factory computer email tunes are ~$100, and you need a handheld diablo trinity or similar. If you go with a common mod set up, the tuner should nail it first time.

FAST XFI & MS3x are very similar, though a significant price difference and a significant effort difference. Mega squirt is cheaper and requires hours to find parts and wire when installing. I do know first hand how well the mega squirt will 'self tune' the fuel table. Tuning fuel is not hard. Tuning spark without knock control could be an issue.

There are other options as well, but most are based on one of the previous mentioned systems.

Around here, I can rent a dyno for $50/hr (3 hour minumim), or hand it off to be tuned ($125/hr including dyno time). The tuner said I'd be looking at 4-5 hours, so $500+ for him to tune it. Also, he's never tuned on mega squirt, but isn't afraid of learning something new (the aftermarket options are all pretty much the same).

 

[72BBSwinger]

Datalogging I think can be used to really fine tune THE TUNE as well. I will see what I end up with for a harness when and if I ever do.

 

[Map63Vette]

I know it's not the norm, but if you keep your eyes out you may be able to come up wtih a used system cheaper. I got a full Megasquirt system (MS2 if I remember right) with wiring and several other parts for a good deal under $1000. Sold off some of the parts I didn't need that came with it and probalby ended up getting it for $500 or less all told (granted I didn't need the spark control since I already had an MSD box, so in the long run I was closer to $1000 for all the computer systems together). I know the Megasquirt is expandable for future upgrades, but you might be able to catch someone selling an old one if they want to upgrade to a completely new unit.

I started with a carb and MSD and had the car running pretty cheap. Got a good deal on the MSD and harness with just some Google searching and reused the carb that was already on the engine in the car. Intake + MSD put me around $1000-1200 if I remember correctly (potentially cheaper with a different intake) to theoretically make the car run (I needed a few other odds and ends since my engine came with little to no electronics). Sold my stock intake and throttle body to help offset the cost as well.

The big thing that held me back from EFI originally was the fuel system upgrade required. I wanted an in-tank pump and didn't have the money or skill at the time, so I kept the carb so I could get the car on the road sooner. Got a job and some extra income and did the EFI upgrade when the computer fell into my lap (guy I sold the intake to set me up with the guy I got the Megasquirt from).

I really enjoy the Megasquirt so far because it is so adaptable. You can build it to do almost anything if you have some electronics knowledge and even more if you have some programming knowledge to set up your own stuff in the code. Granted there is a lot that you can change (not that you should or need to), but the basic tuning is easy enough for most people to pick up fairly easily for a reasonable tune. An example I have is that I started my setup with very basic O2 feedback control. As I got the base tune figured out I stepped up the O2 feedback to have a more accurate calculation that fixed the mixture more precisely. You could even turn it all the way off if you want. The same goes for idle control. I currently have mine set with a very basic temperature to IAC position chart, but you can make it do more complex stuff like idling at a target rpm and auto-modulate the IAC to do that (useful for when stuff like A/C or in my caes electric fans kick on). I've tried a few times and have had a few issues, so I just keep it off for now, but if I ever feel like messing with it again I can. You don't have to have everything set up from the get go to make it work, you can slowly filter in new features as you get comfortable with them.

 

[Map63Vette]

If I had nothing but time on my hands I'd consider building Megasquirt harnesses for a plug and play type setup, but the big thing there is that every installation is a little different. I have a ModMan intake and routed all my wires under it for a cleaner look. I also put my computer under my glovebox, so my routings might be different than someone elses. I wanted to put a bulkhead connector in the firewall to make things easier, but didn't want to spend the money to get one with enough pins to work.

I think the big issue with "plug and play" is pretty much this. You almost have to build a kit for each car that someone might drop the engine in. If you can mount the computer in the engine bay (which I think is possible with a stock one, not recommended on a Megasquirt), you can be a little more universal, but it might not suit everyone's taste.

 

[72BBSwinger]

One thing that would lean me towards a stock ecm setup is knock control. Be nice for the less than consistent cat piss they sell at the pumps around here.

 

[Map63Vette]

I think some of the computers out there have some knock control built in, but you might have to swap sensors to get it and I'm not sure how sophisticated it might be. I know I can potentially do it with my Megasquirt, but it's a little more involved since you need to know about your sensor and build some circuitry to make it work (and you need it to control the spark, which in my case it isn't set up to do, though I sort of have a workaround for that). I'm pretty sure the AEM can do it as well as I got to play with one of their universal ECUs back in college and I think all the software is more or less identical regardless of ECU. Not sure about the FAST stuff though.

For anyone interested in the workaround I was talking about, the MSD box has a trigger line that when activated reduces the timing by a set amount (programmable by the user). This is typically supposed to be used with nitrous or the like to pull timing when the shot hits, but I was thinking about wiring the Megasquirt so that when it sees the knock sensor input trigger, it would activate the timing retard on the MSD box for some number of seconds or something. It wouldn't be the prettiest form of knock control, but it could potentially save you in a pinch. My main struggle has been figuring out how the stock knock sensors operate. They're not the GM one wire "microphone" style that's basically just a piezo that produces a voltage when it vibrates. I believe they're tuned to the knock frequency of the Hemi block, but I have no good way to test to see if they're actually working.

 

[Uhcoog1]

We need to figure out the knock sensor thing.

I have the knock board in my megasquirt wired and ready, but I haven't connected it. Hemi sensors are NOT tuned to the correct knock frequency. We'll have to set that within the megasquirt tuning software.

Notes from discussing with Matt @ DIY auto tune:
-make sure you're actually getting feedback, otherwise you're on the wrong frequency
-try the fundamental frequency first, then the 2nd if you need to (can be calculated based on cylinder bore)
-'correct' way to 'set' it would be to record and play back through a spectrum analyzer
-they use headphones for tuning at their shop (not knock sensors)

I also spoke with someone associated with Mopar who said this:
There are 2 frequencies for the 5.7 and 6.4 Knock Sensors(part# 05033316aa). 1 is 5.9kHZ and the other is 13.72kHz.

I need to wire mine up and see what happens.

Map - you going to do it? I don't want to figure this out on my own!

 

[Map63Vette]

Haha, I may pull mine back off my engine one of these days if I could find a way to test them. I left them installed so I wouldn't lose them, but don't know if they're any good (pretty sure one went in the tank with the block when I had it cleaned, forgot to remove it). My main issue is trying to figure out how to drive a vibration frequency into them to see if they're outputting, though I might be able to hook up to them while the engine is running to see if there's any "noise" at all. I tried the simple hammer test of hooking them up to an analog meter and tapping them with a hammer to see if the needle would twitch, but got nothing, which is why I thought that they might be bandwith style instead of univeral. Need to see if I can wrangle up a scope or something to see the output better. Some have suggested that they might require an amplifier as well, but I'm not sold on that idea yet.

What would probably be the easiest solution would be to just replace the stock ones with the one wire GM style. They are essentially just a microphone that output a voltage based on the severity of the vibration they see (light tap with hammer = small voltage, big hit with hammer = large voltage). You'd have to decide for yourself what the knock threshold is though.

My other struggle with them has been to sort out the wiring. Since they are two wire I've come across two potential schematics. Either one wire is a dedicated ground (to assure a better signal than using the engine mounting surface) and the other signal, or I've read that some require an input voltage and output a modified voltage (kind of like a TPS that uses a reference voltage). I tried unhooking the wiring on my grandparents' 06 Ram and putting a meter on it and it made no sense. The wiring wasn't consistent from one side of the engine to the other, so unless they run in series I was in the dark. May try to sort through a wiring diagram to see if I can shed any light on it (assuming I can find a diagram somewhere).

I'm all for trying to figure out how to make them work though. I'd love to have a bit of a safety blanket in case I push things too far or get some bad fuel. I bench built one of the knock circuits I found (basically just a timer that outputs a high signal for a set amount of time once a trigger exceeds a threshold), but didn't have any luck getting it to work correctly.

 

[Map63Vette]

I also just noticed that you're probably dealing with a newer MS setup than me, so things are a little different. I have an older MS2Extra, so I don't have the capability of adding the new board and therefore the frequency tuning is not available to me directly through the software. As mentioned before I also don't actually have the MS running the ignition since I didn't want to mess with external ignitors. That being said, the issue at hand is really the sensors themselves. What sucks is that they are directly under the headers, so not exactly the most pleasant to get to.

 

[Modern Muscle]

The problem with factory computers is that they are not very "home hackable," and have issues with built in security crap.

This is not the case with our systems please know the facts before you post.

With Diablosport Full F/I setup is possible.

 

[Joe Dokes]

This is not the case with our systems please know the facts before you post.

With Diablosport Full F/I setup is possible.

Don't write angry. Your terse response didn't do anyone any good. A full detailed description of what is possible through the Diablo Tuner would have been far more helpful.

I think there is some legitimate criticism of the Diablo Tuner, they include:

First it is a handheld unit and it is expensive. Depending upon the actual handheld unit purchased prices range from $400.00-600.00 This pushes the cost of a factory computer from about $1600.00 - $1700.00 to over 2K. At that price your are greatly exceeding the cost of MS3 and fast approaching the cost of a FAST setup.

Second, I dispute your full control comment. According to Diablo own website while you can move shift points and the rev limited you are limited to a maximum increase of 600 RPM for both shift points and rpm limiter. This doesn't sound exactly like full control to me. Can you eliminate the rev limiter or set it at 8K? Do you full control of fuel maps? Or are you limited to selecting from a set of preconfigured tunes? Do you full control over spark maps? Loading custom tunes is great, but can the end user create their own custom maps? Telling a customer they have full control when the full control is actually in the hands of a custom tuner is not really helpful or truthful.

Third, Diablo and the factory computer does not and cannot support a variety of parameters that high performance users might find useful. For example, MS 3 supports staged nitrous, and flat shift.

Feel free to disagree with anything I've written. But don't simply tell me I'm wrong, back up what you're saying with some screenshots and or technical information that outlines the abilities of the diablo tuner. I spent a fair amount of time on Diablo's website and came away less than impressed. The abilities of the Diablo were only briefly outlined and there weren't any screenshots of what the interface actually looks like up close.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

 

[Modern Muscle]

Couple reasons I like the factory computers with custom Harness:

1) Least expensive even with custom harness etc.
2) Reliability - It is the most reliable operating system when turned into a stand alone
3) Tuning - Your base tune you are starting with has thousands of dollars and hours put in it by factory engineers
4) Aftermarket tuners - There are hundreds of tuning shops available that are very familiar with Gen3 Hemi tuning
5) Safe for engine - They use knock sensors to help save engine great for stock - strokers - boosted
6) Use your factory Hemi either new crate or salvage take out as is no buying and adapting cable TB
7) Clean engine compartment Easy install

Last but not least:
Product support - While traveling if something was to go wrong with ECU (highly unlikely) you could go to a Mopar Dealer in a pinch.
With a little long distance coaching from Modern Muscle we can get you going again.
FYI Never had to yet

Personal experience:
When we did the white Challenger in 2005 we used FAST, DBW, and AEM. We ended up with the AEM because there was no tuning available for the DBW so there was a significant performance difference. When the car was on DBW it was the most reliable and enjoyable to drive but lacked power because we were using a 5.7 tune up on a 6.1. Turn the clock ahead to 2013 and there is tuning available for stock, large displacement, and Power adders.

One last thing:
I always get the opinion from the people about being stranded by the DBW and they want to use a cable operated TB.
People, this is not the old days when we all had a can of starting fluid in the trunk or a spare ballast resister in the glove box. There are no quick fixes for computers. Even if all they do is fire your coil packs while you have carburetors mounted on top. I would much rather have the factory ECU that is designed to go 100,000 miles plus.

 

[Modern Muscle]

Don't write angry. Your terse response didn't do anyone any good. A full detailed description of what is possible through the Diablo Tuner would have been far more helpful.

I think there is some legitimate criticism of the Diablo Tuner, they include:

First it is a handheld unit and it is expensive. Depending upon the actual handheld unit purchased prices range from $400.00-600.00 This pushes the cost of a factory computer from about $1600.00 - $1700.00 to over 2K. At that price your are greatly exceeding the cost of MS3 and fast approaching the cost of a FAST setup.

Second, I dispute your full control comment. According to Diablo own website while you can move shift points and the rev limited you are limited to a maximum increase of 600 RPM for both shift points and rpm limiter. This doesn't sound exactly like full control to me. Can you eliminate the rev limiter or set it at 8K? Do you full control of fuel maps? Or are you limited to selecting from a set of preconfigured tunes? Do you full control over spark maps? Loading custom tunes is great, but can the end user create their own custom maps? Telling a customer they have full control when the full control is actually in the hands of a custom tuner is not really helpful or truthful.

Third, Diablo and the factory computer does not and cannot support a variety of parameters that high performance users might find useful. For example, MS 3 supports staged nitrous, and flat shift.

Feel free to disagree with anything I've written. But don't simply tell me I'm wrong, back up what you're saying with some screenshots and or technical information that outlines the abilities of the diablo tuner. I spent a fair amount of time on Diablo's website and came away less than impressed. The abilities of the Diablo were only briefly outlined and there weren't any screenshots of what the interface actually looks like up close.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

Joe

I am not angry I just dont like people posting incorrect info or outdated info.

We now have Gen 3 Hemi's running 7-8 secs in the 1/4 all running OEM PCMs everything from Twin Turbo builds to Nitrous.

So my point is there is a solution for whatever a customer is looking for power wise.

Here is a link for on of our latest builds

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pANkjSDRvuI&feature=player_embedded"]First 8 sec jeep - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Modern Muscle]

As for pricing on the PCMs I dont know where you get that from but ours start at 599.99 including the flash you need for your engine, As for the Diablo tuning not sure if you are reading what can be adjusted just with the hand held or with CMR Dealer software. But again as in the other post with the power we are putting out with this platform now the sky is the limit.

 

[67Dart273]

This is not the case with our systems please know the facts before you post.

With Diablosport Full F/I setup is possible.

\


What in HELL are you on about? I'm talking about FACTORY Mopar systems. FACTORY. As in built by, sold by, of, and for, Chrysler whoever they are now.

I'm not sure, but I don't think I said a word about Diabo'ersomethin

 

[Joe Dokes]

Couple reasons I like the factory computers with custom Harness:

1) Least expensive even with custom harness etc.
4) Aftermarket tuners - There are hundreds of tuning shops available that are very familiar with Gen3 Hemi tuning

I am simply going to respond to a couple of points that you made above that are particularly problematic.

1) Flat out wrong. The absolute cheapest method to transplant a Gen III Hemi into classic Mopar is to Carb it. The second cheapest is MS2, the Third Cheapest is MS 3. Your solution isn't much cheaper than the FAST setup.

Using your own website it becomes clear that your system isn't cheaper.

http://www.modernmuscleperformance....nagment_kit_for_Gen_3_Hemi_p/4-dbw-kitman.htm

According to your own advertisement the cost for a complete kit, plug and play is $2749.00 Then if you read the advertisement carefully you recommend a Diablo Tuner for an additional $400.00 to $600.00.

The combined price above makes your system MORE expensive than the FAST setup.

4) Yes, there are lots of people familiar to tuning Gen III hemi's but am I able to create a custom tune with the Diablo hand-held tuner? The answer is no. I am dependent upon custom tunes provided by black box artists. To me this is the greatest weakness of the Diablo solution. I want to be able to sit at a laptop and do my own analysis of my tune. Right now that simply isn't possible with the Diablo. If and its a big IF, HP Tuners ever gets their stuff together and offers a laptop tuning solution than this might be moot.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

 

[HardVG]

My understanding is that the basic Diablo Predator does give you the capability to adjust fuel and spark to some extent and you do have data logging capability as well. It just takes a fair bit of time and effort to learn how to use this stuff and most guys just take the easy option and pay whatever for an email tune that may or may not be optimised for their vehicle. Obviously the proffessional tuning shops will spend the money to have access the better tools for generating custom tunes and more scope to make changes. Adjusting shift points won't be much use to you if you are not runing the factory electronic transmission.

 

[Uhcoog1]

As for pricing on the PCMs I dont know where you get that from but ours start at 599.99 including the flash you need for your engine, As for the Diablo tuning not sure if you are reading what can be adjusted just with the hand held or with CMR Dealer software. But again as in the other post with the power we are putting out with this platform now the sky is the limit.

Modern-

I'm very interested in this. So can I buy a $599 pre-tuned PCM from y'all, use a junkyard harness, TB, sensors, etc (already have), and just plug it up and go? Or?

Thanks,
Wade

 

[blown71duster]

I believe in this case of the original poster , he is looking for a plug and play to run the factory stuff on a stock engine with no interest to modify the engine or in tuning it. His best bet would be the stock ecm . Getting all the drivability as you would hopping into a new hemi car , which is why most people want EFI.

It is not uncommon to see newer cars with 200k or higher , running around trouble free with the factory efi. I have a Chrysler with 345k and have not had to replace any sensors on it. The newer stuff is very trouble free, and if you do have a problem , you will have stored failure codes to help diagnose .
You can look at a scan tool and it will tell you what cylinder is misfiring without lifting the hood.

 

[jrlegacy23]

I believe in this case of the original poster , he is looking for a plug and play to run the factory stuff on a stock engine with no interest to modify the engine or in tuning it. His best bet would be the stock ecm . Getting all the drivability as you would hopping into a new hemi car , which is why most people want EFI.

It is not uncommon to see newer cars with 200k or higher , running around trouble free with the factory efi. I have a Chrysler with 345k and have not had to replace any sensors on it. The newer stuff is very trouble free, and if you do have a problem , you will have stored failure codes to help diagnose .
You can look at a scan tool and it will tell you what cylinder is misfiring without lifting the hood.

Pretty much why I am doing my swap. Plus you get great fuel mileage and 345 hp is nothing to shrug at, especially in a car that weighs 1500 lbs lighter that the challengers and chargers.

 

[Modern Muscle]

\


What in HELL are you on about? I'm talking about FACTORY Mopar systems. FACTORY. As in built by, sold by, of, and for, Chrysler whoever they are now.

I'm not sure, but I don't think I said a word about Diabo'ersomethin

Our PCM are the mopar ones.

 

[Modern Muscle]

Modern-

I'm very interested in this. So can I buy a $599 pre-tuned PCM from y'all, use a junkyard harness, TB, sensors, etc (already have), and just plug it up and go? Or?

Thanks,
Wade

Correct but the junk yard harness may need to be tweaked depending on make and model that is comes from.