MS3 , Multiport & turbo build

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this is my first slant and first efi set up. I have wanted to do this forever. just decided to stop dreaming and start doing. this short block may not last long. I have patched a crack in the water jacket and the block was milled .120 to raise the compression. I am hoping to get a little time out of it while learning.
current set up is a re-ringed short block with a small cam, ported head w/oversized valves and I just added some RAU roller rockers. the rest should be in this post. if not ask away and I will do my best to answer questions.
 
vitamindart said:
this is my first slant and first efi set up. I have wanted to do this forever. just decided to stop dreaming and start doing. this short block may not last long. I have patched a crack in the water jacket and the block was milled .120 to raise the compression. I am hoping to get a little time out of it while learning.
current set up is a re-ringed short block with a small cam, ported head w/oversized valves and I just added some RAU roller rockers. the rest should be in this post. if not ask away and I will do my best to answer questions.
Click to expand...
Thanks so much. I currently have a 68 BH engine block but have a line on picking up an industrial slant later this weekend. Will pick best parts for the build.
Looking for spring rates, deck and head milling cam etc.
 
I’ve never built a slant. It’s a father/son project.
Appears shot peened rods are fine. Oversize the valves. Port the heads.
Been trying to connect with Gill welding on the intake for EFI.
Anybody running this?
 
Gill Welding is who modified the intake for my build. deck and head milling would be dependent on the compression ratio / pistons used.
I would have them milled to make sure they are straight and have the correct finish for the gasket being used.
 
Can you share more about your ignition?
Correct any of this if it's wrong I want to make sure I understnad - the MegaSquirt takes place of the distributor and controls spark to each of the cylinders and timing, as well as when fuel is injected.
How are you mounting coils and wiring it?
How does the MegaSquirt track what's happening in the engine?
Does anything go in place of the distributor to plug the hole or get input?
 
While waiting for OP to answer about the ignition, you might peruse www.megasquirt.com to learn of crank-triggered ignition options. Most use a 36-1 (or 72-2) toothed wheel on the crankshaft, with a pickup, either 2-wire VR or 3-wire Hall-effect (most Chryslers). The megasquirt processor can accept that square-wave signal directly, using the missing tooth to locate TDC. If you want a dedicated processor, a Ford EDIS 6-cyl box might be used. Its output can drive a coil-pack for "wasted-spark" firing (2 cyl at once). The Ford coil-pack looks a bit goofy IMHO, so I might choose use a Chrysler 3.3/3.8L coilpack. If you want to spark only on the combustion stroke (little advantage), you also need a camshaft sensor. You might adapt one to fit in the distributor hole of a slant, or perhaps modify a slant distributor to work thus. Another little processor would have to "vote" on the EDIS output based on camshaft position, or run it all thru a megasquirt processor. For single-spark, many like the Chevy LS coils which pack a punch and have an integral coil driver so just need a logic-level input signal.

So far, I installed a 36-1 wheel on my 1965 Dart 273, but haven't used it yet. I've pondered that for my 1964 Slant but a bit harder since little room at the front and fewer mounting points for a sensor. In the small-block, I can also leverage the distributor for a Magnum which has a camshaft sensor (for sequential FI, not used for spark).
 
BillGrissom said:
While waiting for OP to answer about the ignition, you might peruse www.megasquirt.com to learn of crank-triggered ignition options. Most use a 36-1 (or 72-2) toothed wheel on the crankshaft, with a pickup, either 2-wire VR or 3-wire Hall-effect (most Chryslers). The megasquirt processor can accept that square-wave signal directly, using the missing tooth to locate TDC. If you want a dedicated processor, a Ford EDIS 6-cyl box might be used. Its output can drive a coil-pack for "wasted-spark" firing (2 cyl at once). The Ford coil-pack looks a bit goofy IMHO, so I might choose use a Chrysler 3.3/3.8L coilpack. If you want to spark only on the combustion stroke (little advantage), you also need a camshaft sensor. You might adapt one to fit in the distributor hole of a slant, or perhaps modify a slant distributor to work thus. Another little processor would have to "vote" on the EDIS output based on camshaft position, or run it all thru a megasquirt processor. For single-spark, many like the Chevy LS coils which pack a punch and have an integral coil driver so just need a logic-level input signal.

So far, I installed a 36-1 wheel on my 1965 Dart 273, but haven't used it yet. I've pondered that for my 1964 Slant but a bit harder since little room at the front and fewer mounting points for a sensor. In the small-block, I can also leverage the distributor for a Magnum which has a camshaft sensor (for sequential FI, not used for spark).
Click to expand...
I read through the documentation of the MS3Pro last night to try and get an idea for how it works. It looks like you can adapt a points distributor to function as a camshaft sensor using a Hall effect sensor. OP's setup for the crank is the only setup I can think of to get an accurate reading of crank timing on a /6.
I see little benefit to the Ford EDIS system from what I was reading, since LS parts, especially coil packs, are readily available and the MS3Pro can easily control them for sequential ignition.
As far as setups go, this makes sense to me. I've been looking at switching to EFI for a while, and the Sniper/FiTech systems just don't seem worth it, they're glorified carbs, whereas a proper ECU controlling injection and ignition can adjust spark and injection timing to get better, more efficient performance across the entire RPM range.

I'm definitely interested to see how the OP does coil-on-plug mounting for this.
 
chinze57 said:
I read through the documentation of the MS3Pro last night to try and get an idea for how it works. It looks like you can adapt a points distributor to function as a camshaft sensor using a Hall effect sensor. OP's setup for the crank is the only setup I can think of to get an accurate reading of crank timing on a /6.
I see little benefit to the Ford EDIS system from what I was reading, since LS parts, especially coil packs, are readily available and the MS3Pro can easily control them for sequential ignition.
As far as setups go, this makes sense to me. I've been looking at switching to EFI for a while, and the Sniper/FiTech systems just don't seem worth it, they're glorified carbs, whereas a proper ECU controlling injection and ignition can adjust spark and injection timing to get better, more efficient performance across the entire RPM range.

I'm definitely interested to see how the OP does coil-on-plug mounting for this.
Click to expand...
I agree that a TBI (FiTech, ...) would give only minor benefit on a straight-six. It is basically a "better carburetor", having less goofy cold fuel enrichment (rather than a choke) and perhaps better management of transients (replace accel pump) and enrichment at max power ("economizer" in Holley 1920), and finer droplet spray. But, it doesn't address perhaps the biggest problem with single-point injection, which is equally distributing the fuel among the cylinders, other than finer droplets helps (forcibly sprayed rather than suck-atomized). Multi-point injection (MPFI) does that, assuming the injectors are flow-matched.

My thoughts for using an EDIS processor are for use with a Holley Commander 950 controller which can command spark timing. That output is designed for the GM 8-pin HEI module (1985-95 small-cap distributor), and is via reflecting back a sawtooth wave sent by the module ("SAW"), with a delay. Similar is done to command timing in the EDIS module. I recall, the delays have different meaning in degrees between the two, but been a while since I thought about it. Have all the parts, but has never risen to the top of my list. Correct that with a megasquirt processor works directly from the 36-1 trigger wheel signal, counting the teeth directly in software. The EDIS likely uses custom digital logic to process the 36-1 signal, or at least a mini-processor with embedded code you can't access (perhaps burned into memory like an ASIC chip).
 
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chinze57 said:
I read through the documentation of the MS3Pro last night to try and get an idea for how it works. It looks like you can adapt a points distributor to function as a camshaft sensor using a Hall effect sensor. OP's setup for the crank is the only setup I can think of to get an accurate reading of crank timing on a /6.
I see little benefit to the Ford EDIS system from what I was reading, since LS parts, especially coil packs, are readily available and the MS3Pro can easily control them for sequential ignition.
As far as setups go, this makes sense to me. I've been looking at switching to EFI for a while, and the Sniper/FiTech systems just don't seem worth it, they're glorified carbs, whereas a proper ECU controlling injection and ignition can adjust spark and injection timing to get better, more efficient performance across the entire RPM range.

I'm definitely interested to see how the OP does coil-on-plug mounting for this.
Click to expand...
MS 3 Pro is what I've got sitting in a box waiting for my engine from machine shop and a crank trigger wasted spark set up from DIY autotune to run mine.

I'm also looking for any pics and ideas of doing the wiring set up too.
 
I will try and answer this as best as I can. the coils are mounted to the inner fender using modified aftermarket LS coil mounts. I am running a 36-1 wheel on the crank with a home made mount welded to the timing cover ( similar to Matt@DIY made ).
for the cam I have a modified Jeep Cam position sensor ( shortened the shaft and installed the slant distributor gear ).

Valiant coils.jpg
 
the MS3Pro is mounted inside on the passenger floor board below my heater box.
main harness comes through the firewall above it. i figured that kept it as far away from the heat on the other side and out of the elements.
 
vitamindart said:
I will try and answer this as best as I can. the coils are mounted to the inner fender using modified aftermarket LS coil mounts. I am running a 36-1 wheel on the crank with a home made mount welded to the timing cover ( similar to Matt@DIY made ).
for the cam I have a modified Jeep Cam position sensor ( shortened the shaft and installed the slant distributor gear ).

View attachment 1716049465
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Thank you for this. Do you have a picture and/or part number for the cam sensor? Those LS coil mounts look great.
 
No kidding. Those mounts are nice! Would love to know part number as well. That is super clean and impressive.
My understanding is wasted spark doesn’t need a cam sensor but if one were to use it it’s an easy tap and thread through the mechanical fuel pump.
 
Broke Farmer said:
No kidding. Those mounts are nice! Would love to know part number as well. That is super clean and impressive.
My understanding is wasted spark doesn’t need a cam sensor but if one were to use it it’s an easy tap and thread through the mechanical fuel pump.
Click to expand...
I've seen a number of people who did that, hall-effect sensor that detects the cam lobe. That works, but personally I'd like to replace the distributor with something that does the same job. When I switch to EFI I want to take full advantage of it.
 
Not OP, but I'll give some info. First a link for a slant-six. DIYautotune sells megasquirt parts.
Adding a camshaft position sensor and a crankshaft position sensor to an older engine

A stationary sensor which magnetically triggers off a rotating part on the camshaft, it is termed "camshaft sensor", and most/all current engines have that. A rotating assembly, driven off the camshaft by a gear is termed "camshaft synchronizer". Some older engines were retrofitted with that, for sequential EFI and coil-per-plug spark upgrades. The Jeep 4.0L is the later. A few, like the Dodge Magnum (and 1985-95 Chevy small block?) still had a spark distributor above the cam sensor so are just termed "distributor".

This link discusses the 2005-6 Jeep 4.0L synchronizer. With the 4 slot patterns, you need a programmable processor like megasquirt to figure cam position via software. https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/help-with-camshaft-synchronizer-install.16477/

From 1999-2004, Jeep used a simpler synchronizer, with just an on/off signal per rev. That would be easier to use with a Ford EDIS "wasted spark" processor if you add custom digital circuitry to not fire the spark on the exhaust stroke if a single coil (like Chevy LS coils vitamindart uses), or in software if a Megasquirt processor.

I have the unit in the photo below, which is likely a camshaft synchronizer, but I don't know the engine. Not a 1998 Jeep since they had a distributor with internal cam sensor. It has a spinning magnet, but can't tell how many poles, and 3-terminal sensor (nonmagnetic) so likely a Hall-effect type. Came in a bag of misc. auto parts at a thrift store for $3. A search of "camshaft synchronizer" on rockauto turns up many for 1996-2006 Ford which look similar to the 1999-04 Jeep synchronizer, but not the part I have. Would be great if anyone knows, since I wouldn't invest time making adapters for a slant without knowing the part. No markings other than a few numbers ("94 01").

camshaft sensor.jpg
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camshaft sensor innards.jpg
 
Alright I'm back at it, after a Ton of help from Bryce Gill@gill welding & Ryan ( turbo66valiant ). I have the cam sensor & flex fuel sensor working. it starts and idles ( still needs a ton of tuning ) now I can finish tidying up the wiring and put the front end back together. was a pita getting that heat exchanger up front. Overall I'm happy with the install and exited to start tuning it and put some miles on it.

HX mount.JPEG


Lower Connection.JPEG


intercooler pump mnt.JPEG


intercooler plbg.JPEG


intercooler plbg 2.JPEG


intercooler plbg 3.JPEG


intake.JPEG
 
Wow super clean, very nice whole package. I’m pretty sure we’re going to need video of that thing running.
 
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EDIS-6 is a stand alone burned PROM module that can fire 3 coils (wasted spark, each coil has 2 terminals) in the proper sequence off a 36-1 wheel. It does this at a fail safe 10 BTDC if there is no PIP signal from the distributor (points or electronic) as it can be fired by just a square wave mechanical distributor signal. The SAW signal is the 'delay value' of the unit as signaled by the EECIV (Ford) or the MS logic. This is the programmable timing curve of the SAW generator (MS or EECIV). Its simplistic as a stand alone unit but the LS coil packs and the option to drive each individually is all MS3. EDIS only takes 1 I/O of the MS.
 
so I just noticed I haven't updated this in over a year. thanks to TT5.9mag. I am in the process of deciding which short block will be replacing the ever leaking cast crank short block in the car ( block was cracked when I started this - froze with water in it is my guess ). I didn't know it or catch it at the time of re-ringing it and milling. even with a year or two of n/a driving the rings never really seated. add in 2 summers of boost and well........ now it wants to push out the dipstick and barf oil on the hot turbo and firewall. I am tossing up a long rod build, a large bore forged piston build ( bought a set in the group buy ) or taking the best of the 3 stock short blocks I have and cleaning, re-ringing and possibly even milling the .120 the current short block is.

I am checking with my kids to see if they took any video's ( my hands are usually full with wheel duties )
 
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