MuuMuu101's 68 Dart, A Learning Process...

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72bluNblu said:
I’m just trying to connect some seemingly separate issues. It would be weird for your starter, water pump, and some kind of ignition component to all have separate problems/failures all at the same time. Like winning the lotto kind of weird for odds.

But a starter failing like you described can be caused by the flywheel not spinning, which is caused by a seized engine, which could be caused by a failed water pump and an overheating engine. And that’s not weird for odds, that’s a logical sequence of events. But I’m not there and I didn’t see what happened, I’m just going on the description.

The crank bolt should be 1-1/4”. If you don’t have anything that large you can pull the spark plugs and see if you can turn the engine with the fan belt or pulley. With the plugs out the engine should actually spin pretty easy.

As for the not seized thing, overheated engines don’t necessarily seize up when they’re still hot. They totally can, that’s usually a melted bearing thing. But they can also get ring stuck after they’re shut down. An overheated engine that would spin but not run when boiling hot could still seize up after its shut down, all the tolerances change as it cools and sometimes the rings will stick.

And the sender is just in the water leaving the block. But if the water isn’t pumping it’s not leaving, and the water around the cylinders and in the heads will heat up A LOT faster than the water sitting at the sender in the intake.

I’m just speculating, and trying to connect a bunch of issues with different components based on your description. I have seen overheated engines run “ok” and then ring seize after they’re shut down. And I’ve seen localized overheating issues from failed pumps.

I’m just stringing together the events in your description in a logical progression. I could be totally wrong (and hopefully I am!) about the particulars, but usually a bunch of different stuff doesn’t all fail at the same time unless there’s some kind of connection.
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Pulled the front driver spark plug and couldn't rotate the engine by hand with the crank pulley. Spark plug was black as night.
 
MuuMuu101 said:
Pulled the front driver spark plug and couldn't rotate the engine by hand with the crank pulley. Spark plug was black as night.
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You’ll have to pull all the plugs, so there’s no compression happening when you spin it. Makes it a ton easier to turn. Otherwise you’ll probably need a socket and a bar on a high compression engine.
 
72bluNblu said:
You’ll have to pull all the plugs, so there’s no compression happening when you spin it. Makes it a ton easier to turn.
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Gotchya. I'll try it again tomorrow by pulling all the spark plugs and order a 1-1/4 socket tomorrow (I have a 3/4" breaker bar here).
 
MuuMuu101 said:
Gotchya. I'll try it again tomorrow by pulling all the spark plugs and order a 1-1/4 socket tomorrow (I have a 3/4" breaker bar here).
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Perfect! Even if I’m totally wrong, it’s not a bad thing to check before you throw another starter motor in there.
 
MuuMuu101 said:
Do I need a standard socket or a deep socket? I'm going to order 8 new spark plugs too while I'm at it. I think people recommend these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006HPIEK/?tag=fabo03-20
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A standard socket is fine, you’ll need a short extension to clear the pulley. A deep dish socket is still usually a little short of clearing and the pulley without an extension.

I’ve gone back and forth on plug manufacturers, if those are the right heat range for your set up I’m sure they’ll be fine.
 
72bluNblu said:
A standard socket is fine, you’ll need a short extension to clear the pulley. A deep dish socket is still usually a little short of clearing and the pulley without an extension.

I’ve gone back and forth on plug manufacturers, if those are the right heat range for your set up I’m sure they’ll be fine.
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I removed all the spark plugs and I couldn't rotate the crank pulley by hand...

UPDATE: So, I just went to harbor freight and bought some sockets. Using the breaker bar, I was able to rotate the crank without using the jack lever as a moment arm. So, the engine is good.

The question now is, what stopped the car?
 
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MuuMuu101 said:
I removed all the spark plugs and I couldn't rotate the crank pulley by hand...

UPDATE: So, I just went to harbor freight and bought some sockets. Using the breaker bar, I was able to rotate the crank without using the jack lever as a moment arm. So, the engine is good.

The question now is, what stopped the car?
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Well it turns so that’s a good thing.

Does it turn easily? It should turn pretty smooth and easy without the plugs in. If it has any tight spots, and places that don’t feel smooth, then you may have damaged something bearing or ring wise.

If it turns easily, then go back to the known problems. The starter and the water pump. The starter sounds like it’s toast so replace it. Check out the water pump, you can pull the belt and see what the water pump shaft does without tension on it. But if it was wobbling then it’s toast too.

After that you’ll have to see if it fires back up and runs, unless something else presents itself along the way. You said the #1 plug was black, how did the rest look? You’re running an AFR too aren’t you? What did that say? I would expect it to have indicated rich if any of the plugs are black.
 
72bluNblu said:
Well it turns so that’s a good thing.

Does it turn easily? It should turn pretty smooth and easy without the plugs in. If it has any tight spots, and places that don’t feel smooth, then you may have damaged something bearing or ring wise.

If it turns easily, then go back to the known problems. The starter and the water pump. The starter sounds like it’s toast so replace it. Check out the water pump, you can pull the belt and see what the water pump shaft does without tension on it. But if it was wobbling then it’s toast too.

After that you’ll have to see if it fires back up and runs, unless something else presents itself along the way. You said the #1 plug was black, how did the rest look? You’re running an AFR too aren’t you? What did that say? I would expect it to have indicated rich if any of the plugs are black.
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I just rotated it 2-3 times with the breaker bar. It depends on how you classify easy vs. hard. I'd say it wasn't easy, but it wasn't hard. Some effort had to be made, but not all. I didn't notice any high spots.

All of the plugs were black. I'm going to order new ones. I don't have an AFR gauge, but I do know that my engine was running rich due to a manual choke cable I had not opening the carb completely for a year. I removed that almost a month ago.

Any recommendations on starters or water pumps? I noticed starter prices are all over the place $72 from a no-name on Amazon, $110~ for parts store, and $200+ for "high performance" ones on Summit.
 
MuuMuu101 said:
I just rotated it 2-3 times with the breaker bar. It depends on how you classify easy vs. hard. I'd say it wasn't easy, but it wasn't hard. Some effort had to be made, but not all. I didn't notice any high spots.

All of the plugs were black. I'm going to order new ones. I don't have an AFR gauge, but I do know that my engine was running rich due to a manual choke cable I had not opening the carb completely for a year. I removed that almost a month ago.

Any recommendations on starters or water pumps? I noticed starter prices are all over the place $72 from a no-name on Amazon, $110~ for parts store, and $200+ for "high performance" ones on Summit.
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Ok. Well, there should be some resistance to turning it still, so as long as nothing jumps out at you as being weird it's probably ok.

This is the water pump I use on my 340, no problems with it yet. I've heard good things about the FlowCooler ones too, but I haven't run one.
GMB High Performance Water Pumps 120-1070P

As for the starter, mine is just a stock replacement for a Dakota. I forget the exact info on it, I think it was around $70. Someone on here listed this one in another thread, Starter For Mini Mopar Dodge Plymouth 318 360 Chrysler Cordoba 5.9L 128000-5270 615311352399 | eBay . I don't know myself what supposed to be so great about the ones that are $200 or more.

If you're changing the water pump you'll get a good look at all the fluids anyway, so that will help in trying to figure out what happened. The plugs should have cleared up if it was the choke problem that was solved a month ago, so, you're still running rich but that's probably not part of the problem unless it was washing down the cylinders, and it sounds like it was running ok before so it's probably not a big deal. Something to address, but not part of the most recent issues. So that can wait, you want to try to avoid replacing a whole bunch of stuff at the same time. Just stick to the stuff you know is broken, and go from there. That way you have the problem narrowed down, instead of just throwing a ton of new parts at it all at once and not finding out what actually fixed it.
 
Good news and bad news. Good news, took the old starter to Autozone and it tested out good. Bad news, I don't know what's wrong. I reinstalled everything and tried starting the car up again. With a couple of pumps of the gas pedal, it will start and shut down when the ignition is turned. Without any pumps of the gas pedal, it sounds like the starter and flywheel just free wheel. When I keep my foot on the gas and turn the key, it will start up, but I have to keep my foot 1/2-3/4 throttle in order to keep it running and it does not sound happy. Idk what's wrong, but now it's starting like a fuel problem. I have new spark plugs, since all of the old ones were black, but I'm not sure if I want to install them just yet to check to ensure it is fuel. Video attached of me trying to start the car a couple of times.

 
Couple of things to check would be is with air cleaner off, see if carb is spraying fuel. If you have to open throttle to keep running engine is looking for air, maybe choke is closing on its own. Seems also that timing may need to be checked. Sounds like it’s struggling to start. Check if distributor is tight and not moving around. Just some things to check first.
Ian
 
DARTGAME said:
Couple of things to check would be is with air cleaner off, see if carb is spraying fuel. If you have to open throttle to keep running engine is looking for air, maybe choke is closing on its own. Seems also that timing may need to be checked. Sounds like it’s struggling to start. Check if distributor is tight and not moving around. Just some things to check first.
Ian
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Me just being me, how can timing change over time? I just checked the choke and it was closed. I realized that there wasn't a rod in place to keep it from shutting. I tried starting it up (without an air cleaner) and I still had the exact same problem. The only time I got it to fire up, a fire ball came out of the carburetor.
 
If the distributor is loose timing will jump around. Try and turn cap with hand see if it moves. Does the carburetor spray fuel when you actuate the throttle blade? These things can be tried without even running engine. The timing chain can also jump time but it’s probably not the case here. The engine really only needs three things to run, air, spark, and fuel. Check these areas.
 
If the choke is closed, open it and place a screw driver or something to keep it open. Now try and start it and see if it will idle.
 
DARTGAME said:
If the choke is closed, open it and place a screw driver or something to keep it open. Now try and start it and see if it will idle.
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SOUNDED LIKE IT WAS FLOODING TO ME! AND A BAD STARTER , NOT ENGAGING PROPERLY !
 
mopowers said:
Did you check the timing?
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How do you check timing if the engine won't run? I need to borrow or buy a timing gun.

DARTGAME said:
If the distributor is loose timing will jump around. Try and turn cap with hand see if it moves. Does the carburetor spray fuel when you actuate the throttle blade? These things can be tried without even running engine. The timing chain can also jump time but it’s probably not the case here. The engine really only needs three things to run, air, spark, and fuel. Check these areas.
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I'll check the distributor when I have free time.

DARTGAME said:
If the choke is closed, open it and place a screw driver or something to keep it open. Now try and start it and see if it will idle.
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I was going to do that as well. I may have a skinny long rod lying around at work.

famous bob said:
SOUNDED LIKE IT WAS FLOODING TO ME! AND A BAD STARTER , NOT ENGAGING PROPERLY !
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I had the starter tested at Autozone and the solenoid was actuating. We ran the test 4 times. Otherwise, I was going to buy another one.

Thanks for the advice everyone.
 
Will do. I'll see if I can swap plugs, lock out the choke, and check the distributor tonight. I've been extremely busy and have barely had a couple hours a night to do what I need to do let alone what I want to do.
 
I replaced the spark plugs. When I cranked it the first time, it still made the starter free-wheeling noise. On second crank, it started right up and didn't have any problems idling.

20180627_192400.jpg
 
I might be late to the party, but sounds like you have a starter solenoid (occasionally) sticking, choke hanging up / set incorrectly , and / or too rich carburetor settings.

BTW.....way to hang with it, hot rods can be as fickle as a high school prom queen.
 
itchy666 said:
Stripped flywheel teeth stopping the starter engaging at a certain spot?
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itchy666 said:
Stripped flywheel teeth stopping the starter engaging at a certain spot?
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Somethin suss with the starter, seems like its not throwing out enough to engage?
As for runnin like a PIG listen to these guys n go thru the process, could be dizzy,timing,bad fuel, vac leak,**** wiring,fkd lead,cracked cap .....................etc
 
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