mopardude318
Well-Known Member
Nice. I built my AR using a Franklin Armory billet upper and lower. The rest is all JP Enterprises. I got close to 3 grand in that sucker. Smh.
My build.....AR build anyways.
- Thread starter doogievlg
- Start date
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Phreakish
Well-Known Member
A $500 AR is kinda like cheap tires or cheap brakes. They're 'the same' insofar as they look similar and are the same shape.
I could go through all the things that those $500 guns do wrong, but it would take all day. Suffice to say, a 16" barrel with a carbine gas system is already a load of crap.
The bolt carrier groups is where the majority of the flaws are, however. Bad finishes, bad dimensions, bad chrome. Put it this way: it'll probably be flawless for 50-100 rounds. Anything after that is pure luck of the draw. Same goes for the barrels, bolts, and extensions. Most of the cheap guns are using less-than-good steel for the bolts, and aren't doing the mag particle and high pressure testing to ensure they're good. The barrels are typically made from cheaper 4140 vs the CrMoV steel that is better suited to resist throat erosion, and twist rates on the cheap ones tend to be 1/9 which is good if all you shoot is 55gr ball.
At the end of the day, that $500 would be better spent on a 10/22 or decent savage bolt-gun. Having a decent semi-auto is going to run over a grand to start. Starting with a $500 gun will cost over 2 grand ;)
I could go through all the things that those $500 guns do wrong, but it would take all day. Suffice to say, a 16" barrel with a carbine gas system is already a load of crap.
The bolt carrier groups is where the majority of the flaws are, however. Bad finishes, bad dimensions, bad chrome. Put it this way: it'll probably be flawless for 50-100 rounds. Anything after that is pure luck of the draw. Same goes for the barrels, bolts, and extensions. Most of the cheap guns are using less-than-good steel for the bolts, and aren't doing the mag particle and high pressure testing to ensure they're good. The barrels are typically made from cheaper 4140 vs the CrMoV steel that is better suited to resist throat erosion, and twist rates on the cheap ones tend to be 1/9 which is good if all you shoot is 55gr ball.
At the end of the day, that $500 would be better spent on a 10/22 or decent savage bolt-gun. Having a decent semi-auto is going to run over a grand to start. Starting with a $500 gun will cost over 2 grand ;)
I,m resurecting an ole assault rifle myself. Its a model 1860 Spencer carbine in 56-56 spencer
caliber.
Changing it over to shoot center fire, from the original rim fire copper cartridges. The Spencer took 7 rounds loaded thru the stock, like some .22 rim fires today. First pull the hammer back to full ****, then rotate the lever down, and back up, to chamber a round. Keep in mind that in 1860 this was cutting edge firearm technoligy. Gen Custer had to turn in his Spencer carbines one week before the battle of the Little Big Horn. He was issued the untested new model 1873, 45-70 trap door single shot carbines. BAD MOVE.
I have to make the new cartridges from cut down 50-70 Springfield brass, and get a custom mold made, to cast the bullets. Then, size, and load them with black powder.
I'll see if I can load some pics.
barracudadave67
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caliber.
Changing it over to shoot center fire, from the original rim fire copper cartridges. The Spencer took 7 rounds loaded thru the stock, like some .22 rim fires today. First pull the hammer back to full ****, then rotate the lever down, and back up, to chamber a round. Keep in mind that in 1860 this was cutting edge firearm technoligy. Gen Custer had to turn in his Spencer carbines one week before the battle of the Little Big Horn. He was issued the untested new model 1873, 45-70 trap door single shot carbines. BAD MOVE.
I have to make the new cartridges from cut down 50-70 Springfield brass, and get a custom mold made, to cast the bullets. Then, size, and load them with black powder.
I'll see if I can load some pics.
barracudadave67
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doogievlg
Well-Known Member
I love the old guns!!
The time has come for me to spend some money on an upper and I can't seem to find what I am looking for. I want to keep the complete upper assembly under 400 and want a 1:9 twist with a chrome lined barrel. Any suggestions?
The time has come for me to spend some money on an upper and I can't seem to find what I am looking for. I want to keep the complete upper assembly under 400 and want a 1:9 twist with a chrome lined barrel. Any suggestions?
Google the DS arms company, they are one of the current contractors for the Army's M4s. They sell complete uppers in that range, several different options.
Also try:
PSA, my wife's AR has one of their uppers on it and it'll eat thru steel ammo like it is an AK.
doogievlg
Well-Known Member
Palmetto seems to only have 1:7 twist rates and 1:8. I'm trying to stick with a 1:9 for the 55 grain rounds.
my wife's PSA is 1:7 as is my DSA, I shoot 55's all the time, accurately. If you go with a 1:9, you'll limit your self to 55 gr and lighter, but if you go 1:8 or even 1:7, you can still shoot 55s, heck I shoot 40s with no problems but I can also shoot 77s.
mguner
How many is too many?
The Evans was an early high capacity already in 44 WCF. It held 28 rounds!
999yards
Well-Known Member
This is exactly correct. The slow twist will shoot light bullets ie less bearing surface, but not the heavier ones without more speed. The fast twist will stabilize more bearing surface as well as less. There is a margin to stay within but the 223 case isn't one to really worry about until you get into trying to stabilize the very long vld's.
doogievlg
Well-Known Member
Good to know I don't need to create another account on an Ar forum when I have you two on here. I recon I'll buy the Psa upper then. Have you guys heard anything on their bolt carrier groups.
any questions, pm me, ive built 7.
also, if you want to play and adjust your trigger to you, I highly recommend this one, its by far my favorite. I currently run a 1.5 lb spring in my 6.5 but you can run other weights too. and the springs to swap are like 25 cents once you have the trigger set up
http://www.jardinc.com/ar-15-single-stage-top-adjust/
http://www.jardinc.com/ar-15-single-stage-top-adjust/
doogievlg
Well-Known Member
Time to dust off this thread. I finally got around to ordering the upper and found a great deal for a del tron chrome line barrel for 359.
nice, i was gonna say there was a line at the gun counter last night at the walmart..........
doogievlg
Well-Known Member
359 was a fair price for it. Midway has them for over 400 so I made the order at work.
nice. I'm wondering if there's gonna be another panic buy up prior to November like we saw in 2013
doogievlg
Well-Known Member
I may try to build or buy another before then just to sell and make money once the panic hits.
i should have taken the 5k offer for my 6.5
If there isn't already, after yesterday.
I know the site I get ammo from was extremely slow when I tried to place an order. Took forever to get to the checkout.
doogievlg
Well-Known Member
Upper came in the mail. Everything looks good on it and I began assembling the lower. In having some trouble getting the pivot pin spring and indent in though.
the front pivot pin spring and dedent pin??
Not trying to argue, but for the sake of discussion..
That is during very extreme temps. I have ran several EOTechs in some pretty extreme temps and conditions, and the only issues I ever had was shut-off once while full-auto with a MK46. That was easily fixed with the addition of the little foam donuts to restrict battery movement. That being said, for pig hunting in heavy brush with my 300BlkOut, I run one of the cheap Primary Arms MicroDot clones. It has been 100% reliable, and its def not babied. On my Mini-G, I run a Burris FF3. Both cheap but good options for a red-dot if you want to go that route.
The current M4 carbine the military runs costs $550 for the gubment, and in civilian trim hovers around $600 for the private citizen, so I would consider it one of those "$500 guns". What this rifle does right is; make ownership affordable to the average person, care and feeding is simple and cheap, and shooting it is even easier. It's not going to outperform a MK16 Jager Karabiner from SWORD International, but it will probably outperform it's new owner in every way.
You often see this with the cheap "tacticool" boutique stuff with zombie slayer BS engraved into them etc. No different than buying an Autozone hood scoop and plastic chrome stick on flames. Stick with basic milspec parts from an established manufacturer and you won't have an issue even at the lowest price point.
research the manufacturer, buy from a vetted source, no luck involved. problem solved.
do you honestly feel this is a concern for the average AR owner? take the expected life of a 4140 barrel, multiply that by current ammo prices, now compare that to the budgetary restraints on the guy shopping for a $500 rifle in the first place.... you get the idea.
this is completely false. 1:9 can run heavier rounds just fine, and depending on the round, and the intended purpose of the rifle, can have preferred performance.
You get what you pay for, and if you are wanting a basic rifle to plink with and teach your kids to shoot, for home defense if necessay, and capable of cost effective modular upgrades in the future, the $500 AR15 is where it's at..
That is during very extreme temps. I have ran several EOTechs in some pretty extreme temps and conditions, and the only issues I ever had was shut-off once while full-auto with a MK46. That was easily fixed with the addition of the little foam donuts to restrict battery movement. That being said, for pig hunting in heavy brush with my 300BlkOut, I run one of the cheap Primary Arms MicroDot clones. It has been 100% reliable, and its def not babied. On my Mini-G, I run a Burris FF3. Both cheap but good options for a red-dot if you want to go that route.
The current M4 carbine the military runs costs $550 for the gubment, and in civilian trim hovers around $600 for the private citizen, so I would consider it one of those "$500 guns". What this rifle does right is; make ownership affordable to the average person, care and feeding is simple and cheap, and shooting it is even easier. It's not going to outperform a MK16 Jager Karabiner from SWORD International, but it will probably outperform it's new owner in every way.
You often see this with the cheap "tacticool" boutique stuff with zombie slayer BS engraved into them etc. No different than buying an Autozone hood scoop and plastic chrome stick on flames. Stick with basic milspec parts from an established manufacturer and you won't have an issue even at the lowest price point.
research the manufacturer, buy from a vetted source, no luck involved. problem solved.
do you honestly feel this is a concern for the average AR owner? take the expected life of a 4140 barrel, multiply that by current ammo prices, now compare that to the budgetary restraints on the guy shopping for a $500 rifle in the first place.... you get the idea.
this is completely false. 1:9 can run heavier rounds just fine, and depending on the round, and the intended purpose of the rifle, can have preferred performance.
You get what you pay for, and if you are wanting a basic rifle to plink with and teach your kids to shoot, for home defense if necessay, and capable of cost effective modular upgrades in the future, the $500 AR15 is where it's at..
Agreed, the M&P15 (for instance) has stellar reviews, it is extremely durable, very good accuracy point, so for the money, I see it as a win/win. Not everyone has thousands of dollars to toss out on an expensive rifle.
I bought one to test out and I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Functions flawlessly, accurate out to 200yds easily.
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
No argument taken ;)
Plenty of folks have run EOTechs without issue, plenty have seen issues. It was a big enough issue that it was discovered and the company found at fault for advertising something the optic was not capable of. Hence their settlement. I wouldn't buy one new, but if I had one already I wouldn't hesitate to run it.
The suppliers for the goobermint are building in intense volumes with lots of checks in place. I've run such build lines for such contracts. DCMA doesn't let you skate by. There are plenty of $5-600 guns that ARE good, but the vast majority are built from parts the GOV would scrap in a heartbeat. I see them daily.
Yup, agree. A lot of the boutique crap is just that. Crap. Same with gimmicks. But the lowest price point parts are often built poorly and have issues. I see reject rates over 65% on BCG's that are built by shops who make a few hundred thousand a year. "no one else complains" they say, yet I see things like ring run bores that are .002" over spec limit, chrome that looks more pimpled than the guy that brings me pizza, and the bore for the bolt tail is often over sized or off concentric by way too much. All are fatal flaws that "no one else complains about".
Yup. But when you buy from a bargain vendor (someone not established, someone that doesn't have an actual store front or internet vendors that haven't earned their reputations) it IS a lot of luck to get good parts.
The problem isn't the material, it's that many places charge a price that would get you the better part. Would you pay Dana60 prices for a 8.25? "it will work just fine for a street cruiser".
But I agree, if you can get the 4140 barrel for cheap then do it. But don't do it if the price difference isn't enough. I know what the material price difference for 41v50 MIL-B-11595 to 4140 - it ain't much and the reduction in problems (especially material imperfections) is astounding. CHF barrels are built from even better material and far more trustworthy. Let alone the longevity benefits for the high volume user.
Arguable. Much depends on the barrel length and velocity achieved. I've seen tracer keyhole out of a 1/9. I've also seen "1/9" barrels actually measure to closer to 1/10.5, 1/12 depending on the mfg. It's not easy to measure and plenty of smaller shops do it wrong - back to the "buy reputable" line. The problem for a beginner is how to determine who you can trust.
Sometimes 1/9 is better for an intended application, but 1/7 is less likely to ever have an issue and will just be easier for the beginner.
Agreed 100%. No reason to spend $3k to teach the kids to shoot. But I've seen enough garbage at the lower price points that it's frightening. Stick with good brands, or spend just a little more and have a lot more fun shooting and less time trying to figure out why it doesn't do the job.
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