no replacement for displacement????

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inkjunkie

inkjunkie

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I have been talking to a few different people about forced induction stuff. Have been told, by almost all of them, that the "no replacement for displacement" does not apply to forced induction. One individidual went as far as saying that with the proper tuning a small block will put out the same numbers as a big block....any opinions????
 
inkjunkie said:
I have been talking to a few different people about forced induction stuff. Have been told, by almost all of them, that the "no replacement for displacement" does not apply to forced induction. One individidual went as far as saying that with the proper tuning a small block will put out the same numbers as a big block....any opinions????
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That use to be the norm., power to weight ratio would show smallblock. Then comes Turbo/supercharged. Basically boils down to what you want and how much you want to spend. I am twin turboing a 383 with a blow-thru carb.. Should dial in around 800 horses on a mild engine at around 15lbs of boost. Should be a 9 second streetcar. O', 20 mpg to boot?!

My Cuda has a 440 in it now and has around 550 horsepower. Gets maybe 8 miles to the gallon and the front of my a-body is draggin the ground. Always messing with something under the hood too! Jus my 2 cents!
 
Cant wait to see it Cuudak. You happen to know Ken Mikel there in Hempstead. He used to run two super comp trucks.
 
I agree, forced indution is the great equalizer. The more boost you run, the more retarded the timing. If you had a super adjustable computer to dial out alot of timing, who knows how much boost you could shove in.

I guy at work as a Mitsu something or another. Natural turbo car with 24 lbs. being shoved in. Peppy lil'bastard.

Talk with the been there and done that or SCDE (Whom is here) about what is pump gas doable.
I'd love to do one myself.
 
daredevil said:
Cant wait to see it Cuudak. You happen to know Ken Mikel there in Hempstead. He used to run two super comp trucks.
Click to expand...

Not personally, I think he has/had a small machine shop that was also a shop for tombstones or something of that nature.

May as well start on the new 383 since I am waiting on sheetmetal. I gotta get the gashog 440 out of it. I am pondering stroking the 383 to a 436 with a 440 crank swap.
 
Wendy at SDCE is one of the people I have been speaking to. I will be using F.A.S.T. EFI whichever way I go. My interpertation of our conversations: meth/water injection is the way to go, it is not something you just forget about, but it acts as a sort of octane booster. Couple it with the fuel injection and you have the ability to run some serious boost. We spent a bit of time a few days ago talking about there twin turbo kit for small blocks. I am looking to have my cake and eat it to, if you know what I mean. I want the ability to drive the car. Jump in the car here, near Spokane, and DRIVE it to AZ type of thing. My car is set up for a big block, hell I am still tossing around the idea of saving my $$ for as long as it takes to build a 572" EFI Hemi. I have the crossram for it after all....I also have a lockup/od trans for it. I spoke to the company that made the bellhousing, was told that they have in the past modified the bellhousing that was made for a big block to work with a small block, they simply cut the big block flange off and mount a small block. How much can a 360 block, with a girdle and perhaps some block hardener, tolerate? In talking to both of these shops they both agree that boosted hp is more "gentle" on parts, providing it is tuned properly.I have spoken with The Supercharger Store also. Supercharged 400, pump gas with meth/water injection made over 1100rwhp without grenading. No way I would push that hard. Would like to run in the mid-high nines with a "street car", that was still able to be driven as mentioned earlier. I have a spool mount small block k-frame and a 360 outside, as well as 2 400's and a 440. Maybe I need to have a few more beers and just try to forget the whole thing???
 
Hey Doug,

I have been tossing the same ideas around also for the 67 Dart I am about to get painted.
I will install the 318/402 combo in it and put a stout 904 behind it and drive it like that maybe abuse it a bit with some NOS while I put together a BOOSTED 360CI motor. RHS Headed most likely Stock Block, forged internals, girdle, cometic gaskets, head studs and probably a blow thru carb unless the EFI is reasonably priced with air to water intercooler & Water/Meth injection. I am tossed between single or TT set up. You can get the T60/70 Turbos for a reasonable price for the twin set up. 10-15 lbs of boost it should live, crank it up to 20-25 lbs and something will prob give, I dont know. How much boost does SDCE say a prepped block partial filled will take? There are alot of mixed views on the subject for sure. We need to figure it out. There is a member here that use to have a SBC TT with the smaller T3 Turbos that would run in the 8's all day long at 377CI, if I remember correctly. That is Hauling ***. You would probably get 15mpg with efi until you got on it. WHY NOT A MOPAR!!
 
Mad Dart said:
Hey Doug,

I have been tossing the same ideas around also for the 67 Dart I am about to get painted.
I will install the 318/402 combo in it and put a stout 904 behind it and drive it like that maybe abuse it a bit with some NOS while I put together a BOOSTED 360CI motor. RHS Headed most likely Stock Block, forged internals, girdle, cometic gaskets, head studs and probably a blow thru carb unless the EFI is reasonably priced with air to water intercooler & Water/Meth injection. I am tossed between single or TT set up. You can get the T60/70 Turbos for a reasonable price for the twin set up. 10-15 lbs of boost it should live, crank it up to 20-25 lbs and something will prob give, I dont know. How much boost does SDCE say a prepped block partial filled will take? There are alot of mixed views on the subject for sure. We need to figure it out. There is a member here that use to have a SBC TT with the smaller T3 Turbos that would run in the 8's all day long at 377CI, if I remember correctly. That is Hauling ***. You would probably get 15mpg with efi until you got on it. WHY NOT A MOPAR!!
Click to expand...
Wendy told me that an intercooler is not needed, meth injection will work just fine. On a side note, when I spoke with the supercharger store they have had a few customers push a 400 up to just a touch over 1100 hp using an f1 procharger, I think he said it was an F1. After being ran on the dyno they pulled it apart with no evidence of main cap walk, and it did not even have a girdle.....questions questions questions.....I do know if I were to go with a 400 with forced induction the pistons (quote right from Ross) will be close to $1100.00. That was for an 8:1 piston with hd pins and oil support rails so they could move the rings down the pistons aways.....
 
Turbochargers are the displacement Multiplier!! Boost does not stop at
1 Bar. I have seen engines take 40 + PSI......Divide that by 14.7 for Bar.

At 1 BAR, a given engine will Double the NA Power.

350hp NA, 700 at 14.7 psi.

2 BAR will yield ANOTHER 100% of the original power for 1050hp @ 28psi.......IF, IF IF IF IF you can keep the CHARGE TEMP....BELOW 220* F.
Detonation is the killer here......and you better have 4" exhaust for 1000+hp.

I cannot wait to apply my knowledge to my Duster.....:clock:
 
Prine said:
Turbochargers are the displacement Multiplier!! Boost does not stop at
1 Bar. I have seen engines take 40 + PSI......Divide that by 14.7 for Bar.

At 1 BAR, a given engine will Double the NA Power.

350hp NA, 700 at 14.7 psi.

2 BAR will yield ANOTHER 100% of the original power for 1050hp @ 28psi.......IF, IF IF IF IF you can keep the CHARGE TEMP....BELOW 220* F.
Detonation is the killer here......and you better have 4" exhaust for 1000+hp.

I cannot wait to apply my knowledge to my Duster.....:clock:
Click to expand...

This is under ideal conditions in a perfect world. The Losses (heat is a good example) add up. Theoretically if you double the air into the engine, you can double the fuel and horsepower. Turbo's are so damn sexy. 70% efficiency out of a gasoline engine. Mmmmmm.
 
Been doing some reading here and there, what is the deal with gear ratios with forced induction? I am unsure of what I will be doing, but I need to get axles and a center case for my car before I go to get it. I suppose I could hold off on the center case til later...but still wondering about gearing of a forced induction vehicle. I knew driving that diesel truck with a turbo was going to get me hooked on it....
 
As far as gear ratios with forced induction....think of this....RPM happens REAL FAST when Boost hits....so....4.10's would theoretically run out of steam real fast as well and theoretically max rpm/gear ratio limited speed would as well....unless you had a OD trans of some sort.

Torque overcomes tall ratios with traction, so I would recommend a 3.00-3.55 final drive ratio with forced induction...for everday use.
 
Volumetric Effeciencies for turbocharged engines have been known to exceed 140% VE. 8)
 
Ink, have you been peeking at my notes lately? Although I have yet to talk to SDCE, I've been planning a stroker smallblock twin-turbo with EFI that would go into a B-body. I haven't decided for sure which B-body - '70 RoadRunner, '70 Charger or a '71 - '72 Charger.

A quick AutoTrader search came up with this
http://www.autotrader.ca/used_cars_....html?srcID=19&frnID=2732928&prv=Ontario&r=40

My Demon would then go bye-bye.


Wylde1.
 
Wendy at SDCE is a trip to talk to. They have a twin turbo small block kit available. Of course there is a ton of options for it. I will be using EFI no matter which way I go. The thought of a twin turbo stroked small block is also running thru my mind. Question is how far can you push a production block before it is like a hand grenade with the pin pulled? I know with the amount of money I will be throwing at this thing the added $$$ of an "R" block is minimal, but at what point do you draw the line and say enough is enough? My car is set up for a big block, but I do have a later v-8 k-frame. And the bellhousing to mate the gm4l80e trans to a big block can be modified to work with a small block. But then again procharged 451 would be entertaining also.....
Wylde1 said:
Ink, have you been peeking at my notes lately? Although I have yet to talk to SDCE, I've been planning a stroker smallblock twin-turbo with EFI that would go into a B-body. I haven't decided for sure which B-body - '70 RoadRunner, '70 Charger or a '71 - '72 Charger.

A quick AutoTrader search came up with this
http://www.autotrader.ca/used_cars_....html?srcID=19&frnID=2732928&prv=Ontario&r=40

My Demon would then go bye-bye.


Wylde1.
Click to expand...
 
Prine said:
As far as gear ratios with forced induction....think of this....RPM happens REAL FAST when Boost hits....so....4.10's would theoretically run out of steam real fast as well and theoretically max rpm/gear ratio limited speed would as well....unless you had a OD trans of some sort.

Torque overcomes tall ratios with traction, so I would recommend a 3.00-3.55 final drive ratio with forced induction...for everday use.
Click to expand...



I have heard it said that because of the torque produced by the turbo, the tall gears allow the turbo to use the torque more efficiently, even causing the turbo to produce more torque than it could with low gears. Talk about a win-win. :cheers:
 
Will have and od/lock up trans...
Prine said:
As far as gear ratios with forced induction....think of this....RPM happens REAL FAST when Boost hits....so....4.10's would theoretically run out of steam real fast as well and theoretically max rpm/gear ratio limited speed would as well....unless you had a OD trans of some sort.

Torque overcomes tall ratios with traction, so I would recommend a 3.00-3.55 final drive ratio with forced induction...for everday use.
Click to expand...
 
Prine said:
Turbochargers are the displacement Multiplier!! Boost does not stop at
1 Bar. I have seen engines take 40 + PSI......Divide that by 14.7 for Bar.

At 1 BAR, a given engine will Double the NA Power.

350hp NA, 700 at 14.7 psi.

2 BAR will yield ANOTHER 100% of the original power for 1050hp @ 28psi.......IF, IF IF IF IF you can keep the CHARGE TEMP....BELOW 220* F.
Detonation is the killer here......and you better have 4" exhaust for 1000+hp.

I cannot wait to apply my knowledge to my Duster.....:clock:
Click to expand...

Dang Kelly I read stuff like this and I have the NEED to build one for sure!
I will be starting on it very soon! I will take it to the MAX with a stock block and see where the BANG factor is! haaaaaaaaa

I will use forged internals though along with a girdle and a partial filled block! Cometic gaskets, head studs etc. With my favorite pair of IRON DOOR STOPS, INDY/RHS HEADS from Brian at IMM engines! Solid Roller cam in this one! Still don't know if I will do Twins or a Single.............still tossing it around.
 
gremlin said:
I have heard it said that because of the torque produced by the turbo, the tall gears allow the turbo to use the torque more efficiently, even causing the turbo to produce more torque than it could with low gears. Talk about a win-win. :cheers:
Click to expand...

Turbos love low gears, it violates all gearhead normal thinking.

My Reliant runs a 2.60 final drive ratio.


Doubling HP from 1 bar -> 2 bar isn't true, there are a number of issues that crop up. A 75% increase isn't unreasonable though. The higher the boost climbs, the percentage of power increase will drop.

Just look at the Chrysler 2.2 engines.

TBI 2.2 = 110hp
Turbo II = 174 hp

Take it from someone who runs 35 psi on gas and was hitting the dyno tuning dozens of cars on a regular basis.
 
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