Ok, What have I done now... (904 problem?)

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ATF+4 is not a synthetic. It is a friction modified fluid that has the proper friction modifiers for the newer valve bodies. I'm not saying it won't work in an older transmission, but you have an issue with shifting and are using a fluid never intended for that transmission. Just covering bases here. If your clutches are slipping before engaging, it seems to me the fluid could be at fault. And draining the pan after 9 liters have been flowed through the converter, cooler and radiator probably wouldn't be enough. Just my 2 cents worth.

I use Amsoil synthetic in virtually everything I own. It actually fits many applications and backdates to work in older vehicles. It ain't cheap, but neither is a motor or a transmission. I just dumped a 2 1/2 gallon jug of Amsoil ATF into my new 200R4. That one stung the old wallet a bit!
 
Coronet 500 said:
This is a tough one. Pressure is 50-90 psi, fluid out front line in at back line to rear bearing. Troubleshooting chart says possible sticking accumulator (in case above/behind valve body) not easily checked. Some trucks had check valve in trans line at radiator so not the case if older car. If nothingelse was changed all I can think of is improper filter gasket alignment restricting pump intake and reducing discharge pressure. Just tossing out some ideas.
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Crap! I have seen corroded or broken springs in accumulators before. It never crossed my mind. It is certainly a possibility, and if it is the issue, they are dang cheap. Just not very accessible.
 
Thanks guys! I'm gonna start with draining and dropping the pan and checking filter clearances since that's all I changed besides the fluid. I'll do a bit more research on the +4 and go from there.. Hopefully my next post will be the its solved.
 
for the last 2 1/2 years my 1974 904 has been running this, and shifts like a mad dog.
 

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.................Hey 73, is ur fluid mixed with some other fluid as i'm thinking NOT, but i'm will ing to bet ds360s is.........i'm with Mopar to ya on this 1..........kim......
 
73AbodEE said:
for the last 2 1/2 years my 1974 904 has been running this, and shifts like a mad dog.
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Normal ATF+4 is not synthetic. You are buying Valvolines synthetic version of it. Again, I'm not saying it won't work, but it isn't designed for his transmission, and he is having problems. The first thing you do is make sure everything is installed right and the right fluids are in and full. Very basic. If there are still problems, then fluid type can be crossed off the list.
 
As far as mine being mixed, I'm sure there might have been a bit left in it but it took 9.5 liters so it must have been pretty well drained.. A dry rebuilt it was not.

I just read a half dozen posts from a Google search on the +4 and there's lots of guys using it and it does look like it is a synthetic fluid... It could be the fluid slipping but I'll decide what to put back in it after I look inside.

Nothings ever easy! I just wanted a nice deep pan with a drain and now I'm here... I just want to get out on the road and beat on this thing.
 
oldkimmer said:
.................Hey 73, is ur fluid mixed with some other fluid as i'm thinking NOT, but i'm will ing to bet ds360s is.........i'm with Mopar to ya on this 1..........kim......
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i am using the valvoline straight out of the bottle and its not mixed with any other fluid. my trans is completely full with this only.


Mopar to ya said:
Normal ATF+4 is not synthetic. You are buying Valvolines synthetic version of it. Again, I'm not saying it won't work, but it isn't designed for his transmission, and he is having problems. The first thing you do is make sure everything is installed right and the right fluids are in and full. Very basic. If there are still problems, then fluid type can be crossed off the list.
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i am by no means recommending it. i dont know what brand DS360 is using, im only showing what i am using and the stuff is working great for me and it IS working and has been everyday for the last 2 1/2 years. i daily drive this car 35 miles a day ,5 days a week, and my trans loves this stuff. i honestly dont believe that his trans fluid is the problem. i could be wrong, and i will be the first to admit it if i am.
 
73AbodEE said:
i am using the valvoline straight out of the bottle and its not mixed with any other fluid. my trans is completely full with this only.




i am by no means recommending it. i dont know what brand DS360 is using, im only showing what i am using and the stuff is working great for me and it IS working and has been everyday for the last 2 1/2 years. i daily drive this car 35 miles a day ,5 days a week, and my trans loves this stuff. i honestly dont believe that his trans fluid is the problem. i could be wrong, and i will be the first to admit it if i am.
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Well, if you ask my wife, she'll tell you I'm never wrong. O:) I think fluid level is the issue the more I think of it. Fluid could be and I would start there, but ...

DartSport360, did you change the dipstick as well? If not, how can we be sure what is accurate?
 
Mopar to ya said:
Well, if you ask my wife, she'll tell you I'm never wrong. O:) I think fluid level is the issue the more I think of it. Fluid could be and I would start there, but ...

DartSport360, did you change the dipstick as well? If not, how can we be sure what is accurate?
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and if you ask mine, she'll tell you im always wrong LOL :D

according to his dipstick, it is overfull. this is a touchy area, because if you really dont know, you are really taking a chance by continually adding fluid to find out. i have never overfilled a trans to the point it causes damage. but then, what really happens when you do ? does it blow seals?
 
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by change the dipstick... The original dipstick reads off the top of the pan and the trans is above the pan... the deep pan is deeper so the reading on the dipstick will be relative to the upper fluid level, it will just take more fluid to get there.

Like I said its reading about 3/4" above full now, I ran it on stands for about 45 mins to an hour in all gears... The level is not dropping... I don't know if its possible to have an air lock somewhere...

The only thing that a kinda found funny is when it was on the full mark I added about a half liter more just to see... it raised the level on the dipstick by 3/4" but that half liter should have filled the entire filler tube and poured out the top if the trans was actually crammed full... where is that fluid going? I just don't know enough about whats going on down in that filler tube...
 
Maybe you have foaming going on?Have you checked the level in nuetral after sitting overnight?Just trying to help get this sorted out.
 
i have one more page. this is for a 727. i was told, this applies for a 904 as well.
 

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I just talked to the guy that built the trans and he thinks the clutch is burnt up. He confirmed that the kick down should be tied back to up the pressure as throttle increases. He doesn't think its the filter. I'll probably tie back the arm and see if that does anything but it sounds like it needs to come out. He's a good guy and has pretty much retired from the transmission business but he does the odd one for friends so its not like he just want to get the work from me. He'd rather not mess with this stuff anymore.
 
that sucks to hear. i would try everything you can before taking it out. if it was working before you parked it, there is really no reason for it not to be working now ..you can still make sure the bands are adjusted correctly, it doesnt cost anything but time, just a thought...
 
OK, now that the thread has migrated to a rebuild for performance what parts do we need to change? My 904 had a "neutral skip" between 2nd and 3rd after I put in the stroker and started flogging it. I am in the process of taking it out and need to get beefier parts.

What parts?
Sourced where?
 
Can you tell me how to check the bands? I'm willing to check it over as I go along here... I will need to trailer the pig to my Dads shop on Saturday so until then I can check over anything... I might pull the pan just to see, why not...
 
Dart Sport 360 said:
Can you tell me how to check the bands? I'm willing to check it over as I go along here... I will need to trailer the pig to my Dads shop on Saturday so until then I can check over anything... I might pull the pan just to see, why not...
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great info in this thread. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=169957

i dont know if you already read through this. there are step by step videos and such. if you dont find it there, youtube has great reference videos for the 904
 
Make sure your filter & spacer are properly seated & sealed to the valve body. If there is any gaps in it the pump cannot pick up the fluid correctly & it will cause the fluid to cavitate(suck air) as it goes into the VB & through the pump causing loss in pressure. Low pressure = lazy shifts.
For older performance cars I use the type"F" fluid in all brands. All type 4 fluids have friction modifiers to help smooth out the shift feel of automatics. In a performance car we want a quicker firmer shift. The modifiers work against that. Type "F" had modifiers in it to produce firmer shifts. Synthetic ATF-IV in an older 904/727 is just a waste of $$ IMO. The type 4 fluid is probably not your problem here though. I'd look for mechanical trouble & check pressures if you can.
 
And ditch the accumulator springs if they're in there. The accumulator isn't necessary in a car with a modified or manual valve body. Accumulator's sole job is to delay the shift.
 
Lonewolf3165 said:
Make sure your filter & spacer are properly seated & sealed to the valve body. If there is any gaps in it the pump cannot pick up the fluid correctly & it will cause the fluid to cavitate(suck air) as it goes into the VB & through the pump causing loss in pressure. Low pressure = lazy shifts.
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I think for peace of mind I'm gonna drop the fluid tonight and take a look at that filter... Can't get serious with it until the weekend anyway so I'll look into it... maybe I'll get lucky.

As far as sealing it to the VB, there's a gasket there right? I seam to remember a real POS looking gasket, it looked like wax paper or something. What should be there?
 
I don't know what came with your pan & spacer, but there should be something, I would think, between the spacer & filter, & the spacer & VB.

Good luck!
It's frustrating when something goes wrong & there is no apparent cause for it.
 
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