RustyRatRod's Guide To Hot Rod Bliss

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RustyRatRod said:
RustyRatRod's Guide To Hot Rod Bliss

Recent threads have prompted me to write this up.
It seems people get caught up in marketing and hype that advertisers spread through ads in magazines and on the internet and through internet forums such as this. Although some of these marketing tactics are legitimate, I want to dispel a few myths.

1). You do not need a large by huge MSD or any other fancy brand ignition system on most vehicles. All out race cars racing for money and points need the hot spark and consistency these type systems can deliver. Your everyday or even weekend race car does not.
Stock ignition systems are perfectly suitable for everyday street applications. That's what they were designed for. They can be upgraded to even withstand the rigors or an all out race car, if you so desire.

2). When choosing a camshaft, always err on the smaller side of any multiple choice decision. Why? Because of all of the outside influences from the aftermarket through magazine ads and the internet that seem to indicate that bigger is better. It's not.
You will be much happier with a camshaft that's too small than one that is too large. We all get caught up in what an engine will sound like. Throw that out the window. If an engine is built to true HP standards, it will have the snappy sound of an HP engine, regardless of camshaft choice. The higher cylinder pressure, free flowing intake and exhaust will all have a direct impact on how an engine sounds.

Stock factory camshafts were designed for everyday driving, within RPM ranges of idle to about 4500 or so RPM. Guess what? That's right were 90% or more of street driving is done, regardless of what type vehicle you have. That means with a few upgrades such as intake and exhaust and carburetor, an engine with a stock camshaft will respond surprisingly well!

Factory HP camshafts were a fantastic marvel. Although considered "small" or "baby" by some, consider this. The factory had to design them so as to still retain some form of mileage, street manners and ability to run power accessories with a good vacuum signal, all the while exceeding the performance of the stock camshaft. That's a pretty tall order.
Most people don't realize a stock HP camshaft will pull well beyond 5K RPM. Ask yourself honestly. How often and how long will your engine be operated in that RPM range? Chances are your honest answer is "not very often".

The truth of it is, the factory HP packages are hard to improve upon. Sure, you can build an engine that easily eclipses them, but at what cost? The inability to run power brakes? A poor idle? Poor drivability? Extremely poor bottom end performance? Poor mileage?
I have seen stone stock 340 Darts get close to 20 MPG and then spank some high 13 second quarter mile times with slicks. That's a ball of badassary that's tough to duplicate. And the recipe is already laid out.

No cooling problems. No stupid oil pressure problems. No dumbass header leaks. It's all right there in front of you.

Aftermarket camshafts are always ground with advance figured in. Usually 4* is the industry standard, but it can vary. Know why? Because 90% or more of people out there make two mistakes.

First, they choose a camshaft that's too "large" for their application. Second, they don't degree the camshaft. Make these two mistakes together, and you will have an engine that might sound good, but it won't pull a greasy string out of a cat's ***.

This is why you err on the small side. Have a stock 318 and want to re cam? Then it's probably best not to go over 220 degrees @ .050" lift. Considering that stock camshafts have a good bit less then 200* @ .050", going over .200 is an upgrade.

How many times have you seen or heard someone that revved a totally stock engine above 5K RPM? A LOT. So, what makes you think you need 240* @ .050" to make one run strong? You do not. That will be wasted duration on most any street engine.

Some stock camshafts were in the 190* range @ .050". So, a 220* @ .050" is a huge upgrade. With everything matching the cam, intake, carb and exhaust, there's no reason that engine cannot pull past 6K RPM. There is NO need for some thing bigger other than sound and bragging rights. And if it won't run worth a darn, what's the sound worth?

3). Same considerations should be taken with the drive train. Why does a street car need a 3K RPM stall converter? Kinda makes it not a street car anymore. Why does a mild street engine need all that? In most instances, you can get by with nothing more than the stock Hi Stall 340 converter......although I will admit converter technology has exploded in the past 20 years.

A good converter that can flash to your matched combination's stall speed, yet still remain "tight" while cruising, is a big bonus. The converter is probably the single biggest consideration to make in a hot rod. No skimping here can do you any good. Get a GOOD converter.

4). Why do you need an 850 double pumper on the street? Because Chevy Action said so? Wrong. Most of these online carburetor formulas are right on the mark. Around 360 cubes needs something like 600-650 CFM to be happy. Find a calculator and use it.

5). Do you need 2.5" primary tube headers on a street car? Yeah, if you want bottom end to SUCK, you might. Stick with the 1 5/8 tube and you will be fine. As to brand, I ain't goin there. But lets just say if I ever build another A body, it will sit at the stock ride height, not some ghetto lookin stuff scrapin the ground, so Summit headers will work for ME.

6). With all this mildness going on, why in the world would you need a 4.10 gear out back? Unless you are running an overdrive, you don't. I have seen FIRST HAND in my life time a stone stock 340 Duster mop the FLOOR with an LS6 454 Chevelle. It was pretty embarrassing.

Why stray too far from such a FANTASTIC formula? We all see it on here everyday. People asking "What's the best......."

The best gear is usually what matches what you will be DOING with the car. Not what you WANT. Not what some Chevy guy told you. Not what you read on some forum or in some magazine.

Somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1 works best. If you are using an overdrive transmission, closer to 4:1 is better. If not, probably 3:23 or 3:55.

Use your head. Ask around. Don't fall for gimmicks. Don't try to build a race car to drive back and forth to work everyday. The farther you get from the factory HP packages, the more "unstreetable" it will be.

Pretty simple, really.


Thank you drive through.
Click to expand...
let's try again
 
I think what a lot of people don't realize. Is you don't need "OMG 800 horsepower!!!" to have a fun street car. Lets look at horsepower to reach 60mph.

Here's some examples:
300HP - 3000-3400 pounds = 5-5.5 seconds = 13.22-13.79 1/4 mile
400HP - 3000-3400 pounds = 4-4.5 seconds = 12-12.5 1/4 mile
500HP - 3000-3400 pounds = 3.4-3.7 seconds = 11.15-11.63 1/4 mile
600HP - 3000-3400 pounds = 3-3.3 seconds = 10.49-10.94 1/4 mile

Now. My numbers might not be perfect. But it gives you a general idea.3 seconds to hit 60MPH is insane. Let's not forget that many "hypercars" hit 60mph in the same time frame. We are talking high end lambos, ferraris, mcalarens. Cars that cost hundreds of thousands of dollar. But it comes down to, when building a hot rod, you gotta ask yourself. Do you wanna accelerate so fast you plough into that light pole before you can say "OH ****"? I highly doubt many people out there have driven a true 600 hp street engine. Never mind 700-800. In my personal opinion. 400 is excellent for the street for the "enthusiast" driver. That is, someone who knows cars. Can drive cars. And would like the occasional 1/4 mile pass. You can do more absolutely. But just be prepared for it. I don't think a lot of people truly understand what 600 horse is like on the street. On street radials. On shitty no-prep pavement. Or even worse, when it rains, even the slightest.

Rusty makes a lot of excellent points in his guide. You don't need RACE parts for a STREET car. Trust me. You'll be a lot happier with 20ft/lb of torque more on the bottom end, then you will with 20hp more on the top end. Every day of the week.
 
I give my RobKat project as another good example. 1976 Mercury Bobcat (Mercury's version of the Pinto) with a transplanted 1999 5.0 Explorer GT40P engine. Mild custom reground cam, Crane stud kit for adjustable rockers and Comp steel roller rockers. Other than that, a STONE stock bottom end rebuild. Desktop Dyno says 285 HP and 345 LB FT. Oh and those numbers are with stock manifolds. headers bump things to 329 HP and 380 LB FT. Supposedly, Fox Rustang headers fit these cars flipped around to the front. I will be finding out, as I have a friend who has tons of Fox Rustang stuff. That's to big a power bump not to take advantage of.

Will be backed up by a world class T5 and an 8" Rustang II rear end with 3.40 gears. Car will have a 2500 pound curb weight with carpet and all. I canot wait to get it runnin cause it's gonna be one fun ride. ......but even in a car weighing another 1000 pounds like a Fox body, it would STILL be fun.
 
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I agreed with you because just recently I put my street tires on my duster and it's close to 450 - 475 horsepower to the flywheel and it's just ridiculous on the street. anything over 3 Grand and the wheels are just spinning right off of it, and it does kind of have a power band that starts at 3 Grand and I just couldn't imagine driving that on the street all the time - it's almost obnoxious. Since the movie Fast and the Furious came out everybody has this wild conception of having a 10 second car. No one or at least barely anyone has been in a 12-second car and most don't realize that all these V8 Mustangs and Challengers and chargers are 13 and 14 second cars until you tell them. Of course there are exceptions.
Lustle said:
I think what a lot of people don't realize. Is you don't need "OMG 800 horsepower!!!" to have a fun street car. Lets look at horsepower to reach 60mph.

Here's some examples:
300HP - 3000-3400 pounds = 5-5.5 seconds = 13.22-13.79 1/4 mile
400HP - 3000-3400 pounds = 4-4.5 seconds = 12-12.5 1/4 mile
500HP - 3000-3400 pounds = 3.4-3.7 seconds = 11.15-11.63 1/4 mile
600HP - 3000-3400 pounds = 3-3.3 seconds = 10.49-10.94 1/4 mile

Now. My numbers might not be perfect. But it gives you a general idea.3 seconds to hit 60MPH is insane. Let's not forget that many "hypercars" hit 60mph in the same time frame. We are talking high end lambos, ferraris, mcalarens. Cars that cost hundreds of thousands of dollar. But it comes down to, when building a hot rod, you gotta ask yourself. Do you wanna accelerate so fast you plough into that light pole before you can say "OH ****"? I highly doubt many people out there have driven a true 600 hp street engine. Never mind 700-800. In my personal opinion. 400 is excellent for the street for the "enthusiast" driver. That is, someone who knows cars. Can drive cars. And would like the occasional 1/4 mile pass. You can do more absolutely. But just be prepared for it. I don't think a lot of people truly understand what 600 horse is like on the street. On street radials. On shitty no-prep pavement. Or even worse, when it rains, even the slightest.

Rusty makes a lot of excellent points in his guide. You don't need RACE parts for a STREET car. Trust me. You'll be a lot happier with 20ft/lb of torque more on the bottom end, then you will with 20hp more on the top end. Every day of the week.
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j par said:
I agreed with you because just recently I put my street tires on my duster and it's close to 450 - 475 horsepower to the flywheel and it's just ridiculous on the street. anything over 3 Grand and the wheels are just spinning right off of it, and it does kind of have a power band that starts at 3 Grand and I just couldn't imagine driving that on the street all the time - it's almost obnoxious. Since the movie Fast and the Furious came out everybody has this wild conception of having a 10 second car. No one or at least barely anyone has been in a 12-second car and most don't realize that all these V8 Mustangs and Challengers and chargers are 13 and 14 second cars until you tell them. Of course there are exceptions.
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I'm about 400 at the flywheel. With 245 cooper cobras out back. And it absolutely will spin them at will off the line. Or just getting on the pedal. Or over 3k rpm and you get on it. Just about the only time it won't is if I'm giving it less than 1/4 throttle. I don't think a lot of people understand whats needed for 10 second street car. Or how they handle the street. They just know "oh so and so said his car does 10 seconds and it's not that bad". I call crap on that. A 10 second car will pin you into the seat at will and make you it's ***** if you don't respect it. 12 second street car is plenty and can be quite the handful in itself. In fact, 12 second street cars are too much for probably 90% of the drivers today.
 
Agreed again! My buddy has a 500 horsepower 2009 GT1 Corvette and it's supposed to do about 12.5, people just don't realize.
Lustle said:
I'm about 400 at the flywheel. With 245 cooper cobras out back. And it absolutely will spin them at will off the line. Or just getting on the pedal. Or over 3k rpm and you get on it. Just about the only time it won't is if I'm giving it less than 1/4 throttle. I don't think a lot of people understand whats needed for 10 second street car. Or how they handle the street. They just know "oh so and so said his car does 10 seconds and it's not that bad". I call crap on that. A 10 second car will pin you into the seat at will and make you it's ***** if you don't respect it. 12 second street car is plenty and can be quite the handful in itself. In fact, 12 second street cars are too much for probably 90% of the drivers today.
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Just had this discussion with my head doc. He is one of those folks that is all about the motor. Big cam, even bigger carb. Stock convertor and gears. Tried to get him to understand that a good running car is about the right package...Heard him mention 4:10 gears, turbo 400, loose convertor and wanting to drive it on the freeway...think I pissed him off when I started crying from laughter. .
 
Yea well, you know how it is. You try and tell people about your experience and your friends trials and errors etc....

He'll be happy for a (short) time.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Yea well, you know how it is. You try and tell people about your experience and your friends trials and errors etc....

He'll be happy for a (short) time.
Click to expand...

I explained to him about my old truck. Was a 4×4 Ranger, came with a 2.8 v6. Swapped in a 302 with a c4. Truck had 4.10's in it. When I first built it it had 29" tall tires on it. With a bit of trimming/hammering was able to get 31's under it. Had a quiet exhaust on it. But thanks to a lot of mudding had no carpet/insulation in it. My wife at the time loved driving it. Got a new insurance card, went to put it in the glove box and found several bags of disposable ear plugs along with a bottle of Aspirin. Lisa just laughed when I mentioned it.
Doc tried to talk about it again. I told him that as far as I am concerned conversation is done. I don't mind the guy bouncing ideas off of me but when he just believes what he reads in Hot Rod...
He asked me about him buying a fully machined motor and him assembling it, to save a few bucks. Builder wants $700 or so to assemble, dial the cam in. Asked if he will ever be building another one...no. Tried to explain to him that by the time you gather up all the necessary tools he won't be saving much. Then there is also the possibility of it grenading from him doing something wrong.
Next question was about builder breaking it in and dynoing it. He just couldn't seem to understand it. Builder puts it together, puts it on the dyno...something is not right or it goes boom it is on the builder. Doc builds it and something goes wrong...or it grenades he will be out 11k.
To me some of this stuff is a no brainer....sort of like the argument is am in on a bbq site...
 
Wow, finally saw and read this. Advice from RRR, Rumble and others I will take to heart. Thanks guys, that's why I like it here.
 
I didn't read all 8 pages, just the first RRR post. Looks like he nailed it to me, sounds a lot like my 273 build. Well said and technically correct in my opinion. Keep on truckin RRR------------
Cheers--------DR---------:)
 
Actually, this thread is so good it made me change the direction on my build.
Yeah, Rusty...if you have the time please continue to share
 
Stroke the engine as large as possible and pick up fully CNC 'd heads to couple to the biggest set of headers, cam, intake and carb possible with a retardedly high stall converter and high gear ratios!
Add super charger if needed!
Run alcohol if possible.
Sell off wife's car and wife.

LMAO! ;)
 
,
rumblefish360 said:
Stroke the engine as large as possible and pick up fully CNC 'd heads to couple to the biggest set of headers, cam, intake and carb possible with a retardedly high stall converter and high gear ratios!
Add super charger if needed!
Run alcohol if possible.
Sell off wife's c
?
LMAO! ;)
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No wife,to villify,Rob .... The "over cammed ,over converted,too big a cylinder head," ,I 've done....I ended up,with a Mopar,in trade.....She*t happens,lick your wounds...
 
I base my needs on my recollections of those totally stock 383 68-70 roadrunners, bees, those few 426 stock hemis, those 340-6 TA's and those 440-6 cudas, then I realize maybe just a LITTLE more would be enough, but not too much, OR just stock is probably plenty TOO!
 
Rainy Day Auto said:
ok, now to throw something in the mix for change.

In this thread I get the sharp vibe that hot rod bliss is synonymous with a well tuned V8. That is cool and all but to some people hot rod haven can be reached with a slant six.

What would you do to be cost effective but warm up a slant six?

I understand this is a tall order because I have a Clifford header and 4 bbl. set up and I can tell you first hand that is was not cheap to buy it all new. :protest:

but assuming someone does not have a big budget but has a slant under the hood and a lot of time, what would you do to warm it up a bit. Not expecting a rocket but just some old fashion hot rodding with what exists.
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/6 hop ups are relatively cheap and simple.

1. Mill about .06 to .09 off the head.
2. Get a cam and valve springs a little less than 340 specs.
3. Put a double roller timing set in while you are at it.
4. Run the factory 2 barrel carb and intake.
5. Run factory electronic distributor
6. Run 2.5 exhaust with straight through or low back pressure muffler.

This will definitely wake up a /6 if tuned correctly. It won't be like a V8 but it will be a lot more fun to drive and usually gets better mpg. A manual transmission is also a plus but not cheap to convert. I did this to a 170 /6 in the 80's and it was a sweet little package in a 4 speed 64 Barracuda. Plus it got 30 mpg cruising on the highway.
 
I measure fun by smiles per mile, and bang for the buck...like 66fs just said, it can be found with the slant. ii enjoy even tooling down the road in a stock slant!

what I was saying prior, many people on here have no baseline to use. they read all about Joe and his mega stroker big buck multi $$ high HP build, and don't realize a fast, fun, streetable old mopar can be had for many $ less!!! we find our fun where we find it. not always hiding in the checkbook?
 
Lustle said:
I'm about 400 at the flywheel. With 245 cooper cobras out back. And it absolutely will spin them at will off the line. Or just getting on the pedal. Or over 3k rpm and you get on it. Just about the only time it won't is if I'm giving it less than 1/4 throttle. I don't think a lot of people understand whats needed for 10 second street car. Or how they handle the street. They just know "oh so and so said his car does 10 seconds and it's not that bad". I call crap on that. A 10 second car will pin you into the seat at will and make you it's ***** if you don't respect it. 12 second street car is plenty and can be quite the handful in itself. In fact, 12 second street cars are too much for probably 90% of the drivers today.
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I am only going to speak for myself but I would never run a conventional rear tire on my barracuda, I only run drag radials and they hook pretty decent actually......or at least good enough the car launches straight forward. I think it would be ludicrous to run around in a high 5 hundred horse car with passenger tires.......dangerous to me. And who in thier right mind would ever intentionally take thier 4-600 horse car out during the rain anyway, irreguardless of what tire you would have on it, it would still handle like crap and risk wrecking our cars. I do drive around in a 10 second street/strip car and it doesn't phase me in the least, I love it actually, and I'm thinking about turning it up a little. If I only had 400 horse in my car with all the other modern hot rods out there that run decent I would constantly be getting my butt handed to me. So I will take my 500 plus street/strip car anyway and wax 98% of anyone you may run across and feel great about myself. Thanks.
 
OK...I have been waiting patiently (for like a year) for Rob & Rob's Guide to Building a Low-Budget Kickass 340, but alas...we've covered Everything But.
The stocker '68 four speed was 275HP...surely we can do better than that with a few minor tweaks, no? Don't keep us waiting any longer, fellas!
 
'68cuda416 said:
I am only going to speak for myself but I would never run a conventional rear tire on my barracuda, I only run drag radials and they hook pretty decent actually......or at least good enough the car launches straight forward. I think it would be ludicrous to run around in a high 5 hundred horse car with passenger tires.......dangerous to me. And who in thier right mind would ever intentionally take thier 4-600 horse car out during the rain anyway, irreguardless of what tire you would have on it, it would still handle like crap and risk wrecking our cars. I do drive around in a 10 second street/strip car and it doesn't phase me in the least, I love it actually, and I'm thinking about turning it up a little. If I only had 400 horse in my car with all the other modern hot rods out there that run decent I would constantly be getting my butt handed to me. So I will take my 500 plus street/strip car anyway and wax 98% of anyone you may run across and feel great about myself. Thanks.
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Agreed, but their are so dam many cars on the road now,where are we going to open'em up, besides the dragstrip? and those clowns have gone to 1/8 mile !
 
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