DrEamer
I suffer from cars on the brain!
Hydraulic roller
Stroker specific cams?
- Thread starter DrEamer
- Start date
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Hydraulic roller
superchargeddrt
Well-Known Member
This is the specs on my cam. My 418 made 490 Horsepower and 516 torque with this cam. Edelbrock heads, 10.55 compression.
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
#51 Cal Interesting post and right on target
Rusty said
"Sometimes though there are situations where you actually WANT a Chevy or a Ford lobe on a Mopar camshaft. "
NAH just use a MOPAR lobe with less acceleration spread out over the bigger lifter
A comment- lots of R&D on Ford lifters for the circle track crowd- whole industry learned a lot prior to that most R&D was SBC then BBC
Thanks for the post and link NM #58
Rusty said
"Sometimes though there are situations where you actually WANT a Chevy or a Ford lobe on a Mopar camshaft. "
NAH just use a MOPAR lobe with less acceleration spread out over the bigger lifter
A comment- lots of R&D on Ford lifters for the circle track crowd- whole industry learned a lot prior to that most R&D was SBC then BBC
Thanks for the post and link NM #58
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
Finally read through the thread- my recap
mostly see street use, up to several hundred mile drives with A/C and power brakes. first page
I want to keep the duration under [email protected] for good measure. Post 38
What rumble said post 41
Your 232* duration just simply puts the operating hand at a certain point to start. Where it ends is another story based on the part on the engine.
After that, the court is WIDE OPEN to how everything else is being done. And that’s a huge field.
What Krooser said post 43
You don't want a Ford {actually chevy in ford}XFI lobe on your Mopar you want a lobe designed for a .904 lifter. Big difference.
What Matt said post 46
Don't forget Shane at Crower to talk to him, he did my custom cam for my build plus many others. Great guy as well.
Cal post 51
solid Roller 242/250 550/575 110 or 108
Dial it in so the seat timing @ .004” lift sees the intake close at around 70 degrees ABDC for a DCR of about 7.9:1
Glad to hear your going with the Pro Flo 4 it’s what I’m using on my stroker build as well!
IMHO the overlap and .004 as Cal mentions is very Important
YR post 56
What NM says about Manifold Pressure (MP) is very germaine to EFI post 58
The higher the better is going to give a better experience on the street
Bullet post 59
Intake
230 @.050”
.367” lobe lift, .587” with 1.6 rocker
284 duration @.006”
Exhaust
234 @.050”
.367” lobe lift, .587” with 1.6 rocker
288 duration @.006”
113 lobe separation
109 intake centerline
Comp XFI chevy lobes uses 114 LCA on a ford magazine build +8 on exhaust duration
Non EFI suggestions
ATK crate from post 26
229/233 @050 .520in/.515 ex 110LSA.
Brian at IMM recently used. It used [email protected] on the intake with 580ish lift IIRC.
Jpar Oregon 238-248 526 lift 1.6 rocker 108 LCA post 60
Superchaargeddrt post 77
What NM says post 62 @64 same as my experience with factory EFI
What YR says post 68
Jones HR
Cam# Chr360M, HR73353-110
233/233 @.050"
.353"/.353" Lobe Lift .529 w/ 1.5 .564 w/ 1.6 .600 w 1.7 (magnum)
110 LSA
going to cam list on website lobe HR73353
292 @.006 151@200
it's the 151@200 that gives the power- the seat timing gives the vacuum etc
from Jones website- here's the theory
e. Using our proprietary Inverse Radius technology, these EHR Series profiles offer the most area over the nose with less overlap, resulting in more horsepower and torque without sacrificing idle-smoothness and reliability
(Edit for fumblefinger retypos)
Inverse Radius technology produce a slow initial opening of the valve, then increases the lift rate as needed per engine specifications {intake, rod length/ratio- and exhaust pull etc}
Inverse radius give you more area under the curve at the same lift and duration than a normal flat flanked roller profile
The result is less air being lost to the overlap process, and more air being retained in the cylinder
This makes the engine more efficient, increasing both torque and Horsepower
short duration allows him to squeeze the LCA down
His 233 inverse radius HR is going to be shorter on the seat than the Bullet
Did you emphasize usage and EFI in your questioner or did you do it by phone
cam looks big to me
So it comes down to tradeoffs
Solid FT or inverse radius HR or inverse radius solid roller
flat flank roller is going to be 10 degrees bigger seat to seat which hurts getting the Intake closed and other valve events and hurts overlap for this EFI build
mostly see street use, up to several hundred mile drives with A/C and power brakes. first page
I want to keep the duration under [email protected] for good measure. Post 38
What rumble said post 41
Your 232* duration just simply puts the operating hand at a certain point to start. Where it ends is another story based on the part on the engine.
After that, the court is WIDE OPEN to how everything else is being done. And that’s a huge field.
What Krooser said post 43
You don't want a Ford {actually chevy in ford}XFI lobe on your Mopar you want a lobe designed for a .904 lifter. Big difference.
What Matt said post 46
Don't forget Shane at Crower to talk to him, he did my custom cam for my build plus many others. Great guy as well.
Cal post 51
solid Roller 242/250 550/575 110 or 108
Dial it in so the seat timing @ .004” lift sees the intake close at around 70 degrees ABDC for a DCR of about 7.9:1
Glad to hear your going with the Pro Flo 4 it’s what I’m using on my stroker build as well!
IMHO the overlap and .004 as Cal mentions is very Important
YR post 56
What NM says about Manifold Pressure (MP) is very germaine to EFI post 58
The higher the better is going to give a better experience on the street
Bullet post 59
Intake
230 @.050”
.367” lobe lift, .587” with 1.6 rocker
284 duration @.006”
Exhaust
234 @.050”
.367” lobe lift, .587” with 1.6 rocker
288 duration @.006”
113 lobe separation
109 intake centerline
Comp XFI chevy lobes uses 114 LCA on a ford magazine build +8 on exhaust duration
Non EFI suggestions
ATK crate from post 26
229/233 @050 .520in/.515 ex 110LSA.
Brian at IMM recently used. It used [email protected] on the intake with 580ish lift IIRC.
Jpar Oregon 238-248 526 lift 1.6 rocker 108 LCA post 60
Superchaargeddrt post 77
What NM says post 62 @64 same as my experience with factory EFI
What YR says post 68
Jones HR
Cam# Chr360M, HR73353-110
233/233 @.050"
.353"/.353" Lobe Lift .529 w/ 1.5 .564 w/ 1.6 .600 w 1.7 (magnum)
110 LSA
going to cam list on website lobe HR73353
292 @.006 151@200
it's the 151@200 that gives the power- the seat timing gives the vacuum etc
from Jones website- here's the theory
e. Using our proprietary Inverse Radius technology, these EHR Series profiles offer the most area over the nose with less overlap, resulting in more horsepower and torque without sacrificing idle-smoothness and reliability
(Edit for fumblefinger retypos)
Inverse Radius technology produce a slow initial opening of the valve, then increases the lift rate as needed per engine specifications {intake, rod length/ratio- and exhaust pull etc}
Inverse radius give you more area under the curve at the same lift and duration than a normal flat flanked roller profile
The result is less air being lost to the overlap process, and more air being retained in the cylinder
This makes the engine more efficient, increasing both torque and Horsepower
short duration allows him to squeeze the LCA down
His 233 inverse radius HR is going to be shorter on the seat than the Bullet
Did you emphasize usage and EFI in your questioner or did you do it by phone
cam looks big to me
So it comes down to tradeoffs
Solid FT or inverse radius HR or inverse radius solid roller
flat flank roller is going to be 10 degrees bigger seat to seat which hurts getting the Intake closed and other valve events and hurts overlap for this EFI build
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Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/improve-commute-retrofit-electronic-fuel-injection-system/
nothing on cam selection
nothing on cam selection
DrEamer
I suffer from cars on the brain!
The cam recommendation request form stated EFI, and in the notes I included a detailed description of how I wanted to use the car. I also included the EFI unit that I was using, along with transmission info, and anything else I thought might be useful. I did ask about the vacuum, which he said that the combination should pull at least 14 inches. I guess the thing that surprised me most was the use of a single pattern cam. Some research points to good reasons to use them, but I guess that I am so use to seeing split duration, that I never thought of using a single. Certainly I'm not experienced enough to question Mike on his choices. That said, maybe a call is in order. Below is the lobe that he selected. It is out of the less aggressive street lobe option.
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
Yes you notice that he has another series of cams
and that there are several in the series he chose for you that have shorter durations and more lift.
Mike has stated that there are big differences in springs and maintenance required
rpm levels, usage with a super light valve train, etc
One good reason not to try and pick cams from a grinders sheets or the "bottom of the page" method
Comp has so many options there is no way for me to sort them out, and I suspect their tech support either. some seem to be oldies
Still to me 292 seat at .006 sounds like a lot but maybe with two similar intake and exhaust he can get 14 inches of vacuum- what with less overlap
that would be amazing
did he say 1.5 rockers would work just fine? I was thinking of one of the shorter cams with about the same lift
But Mikes software is about as sophisticated as there is (along with brother Rick's "Controlled Induction" package - he usually nails recommendations
what springs? recommend light retainers- you have stock weight valves?
You mayhave noticed YR's opinion on extra long exhaust duration
go ahead and post up your spec sheet headers etc
at your rpm range HR should work great
you are not pushing the envelope
FT's have their own sets of challenges
and that there are several in the series he chose for you that have shorter durations and more lift.
Mike has stated that there are big differences in springs and maintenance required
rpm levels, usage with a super light valve train, etc
One good reason not to try and pick cams from a grinders sheets or the "bottom of the page" method
Comp has so many options there is no way for me to sort them out, and I suspect their tech support either. some seem to be oldies
Still to me 292 seat at .006 sounds like a lot but maybe with two similar intake and exhaust he can get 14 inches of vacuum- what with less overlap
that would be amazing
did he say 1.5 rockers would work just fine? I was thinking of one of the shorter cams with about the same lift
But Mikes software is about as sophisticated as there is (along with brother Rick's "Controlled Induction" package - he usually nails recommendations
what springs? recommend light retainers- you have stock weight valves?
You mayhave noticed YR's opinion on extra long exhaust duration
go ahead and post up your spec sheet headers etc
at your rpm range HR should work great
you are not pushing the envelope
FT's have their own sets of challenges
DrEamer
I suffer from cars on the brain!
Here is the spec sheet that I turned into Jones. I plan on using the 1.6 ratio.
Engine
408 Mopar Magnum
Cam Type
H Rollor
Lifter Diameter
stock
Cam Journal Size
Stock
Bore
4.030
Stroke
4.000
Rod Length
6.123
Compression Ratio
10.4
Rocker Ratio
1.6
Transmission
Auto
Stall Speed RPM
N/A
Max HP RPM Desired
6000-6200
Max Engine RPM
6000
Vehicle Weight
3500
Intake Valve Diameter
2.02
Exhaust Valve Diameter
1.56
Intake Port Flow
@.400''
248
@.500''
281
@.600''
293
Max Flow @ .***"Lift
301@700
Exhaust Port Flow
@.400''
213
@.500''
231
@.600''
237
Max Flow @ .***"Lift
240@700
Exhaust header type and size
Full Length 1 3/4"
Intake Manifold
Super Victor
Injected or Carbureted
Injected
Injector/Carb Size
1000CFM 35lb/hr
Fuel type
Gas
Valve Spring seat pressure
138
Spring Rate
420lbs/inch
Spring Max lift
680
Engine
408 Mopar Magnum
Cam Type
H Rollor
Lifter Diameter
stock
Cam Journal Size
Stock
Bore
4.030
Stroke
4.000
Rod Length
6.123
Compression Ratio
10.4
Rocker Ratio
1.6
Transmission
Auto
Stall Speed RPM
N/A
Max HP RPM Desired
6000-6200
Max Engine RPM
6000
Vehicle Weight
3500
Intake Valve Diameter
2.02
Exhaust Valve Diameter
1.56
Intake Port Flow
@.400''
248
@.500''
281
@.600''
293
Max Flow @ .***"Lift
301@700
Exhaust Port Flow
@.400''
213
@.500''
231
@.600''
237
Max Flow @ .***"Lift
240@700
Exhaust header type and size
Full Length 1 3/4"
Intake Manifold
Super Victor
Injected or Carbureted
Injected
Injector/Carb Size
1000CFM 35lb/hr
Fuel type
Gas
Valve Spring seat pressure
138
Spring Rate
420lbs/inch
Spring Max lift
680
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
Thanks
I missed that you were working on a Magnum
that explains the HR
should be a good build
I missed that you were working on a Magnum
that explains the HR
should be a good build
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
You'll probably get specs back that lifts less exhaust than intake .580/.569 at the smallest , .605/.591 big side...oh hyd well maybe the 1st
DrEamer
I suffer from cars on the brain!
Just for giggles I thought I would post what you get for a recommendation from someone who works at Comp Cams is in way over their head.
Grind Number:XR265HR-14
Cam Type:Hydraulic Roller
Lifter Style:Hydraulic Roller
Camshaft Series:Xtreme Energy Computer Controlled
Camshaft Gear Attachment:1-Bolt
Usage:Street/Performance
Valve Springs Required:Yes
Camshaft Material:Billet Steel
California Proposition 65:WARNING: Cancer and Reproductive Harm P65Warnings.ca.gov
Advertised Intake Duration:265
Advertised Exhaust Duration:273
Intake Duration at .050 Inch Lift:216
Exhaust Duration at .050 Inch Lift:224
Intake Valve Lift:0.506
Exhaust Valve Lift:0.506
Lobe Separation:114
Grind Number:XR265HR-14
Cam Type:Hydraulic Roller
Lifter Style:Hydraulic Roller
Camshaft Series:Xtreme Energy Computer Controlled
Camshaft Gear Attachment:1-Bolt
Usage:Street/Performance
Valve Springs Required:Yes
Camshaft Material:Billet Steel
California Proposition 65:WARNING: Cancer and Reproductive Harm P65Warnings.ca.gov
Advertised Intake Duration:265
Advertised Exhaust Duration:273
Intake Duration at .050 Inch Lift:216
Exhaust Duration at .050 Inch Lift:224
Intake Valve Lift:0.506
Exhaust Valve Lift:0.506
Lobe Separation:114
mopowers
Well-Known Member
You should send them another request. I'd bet you get a completely different recommendation.
That’s because you said “Magnum engine” which instantly directed him to the computer controlled list because he has no brain. Just auto pilot.
It's all dependent on the combo. I've played with desktop dyno for years. I know there are some who think it's bullshit, but the better info you put in, the better the info that comes out. And without fail, on certain combos, especially mild builds, a wide LSA wins out every single time below 5000 RPM and that's where 90% or more of a street engine's time is spent. Yes, it's not as much of a peak torque number, but it's a flatter curve with more available torque, for a longer time, in some cases a lot longer time.
As I and many others including yourself have said many times and it falls upon deaf ears with all the "gurus" it all depends on what you're doing. My rule has always been look at all the factory high performance engines. Except for VERY few exceptions, the camshafts were ground on wide LSAs like 113-116 AND THEY WORKED and worked very well. Most times for a street car, the farther away you get from that recipe, the worse of a "street car" you end up with.
But of course, like I said, you caint tell all that to people who've done it all and know it all.
Oh and I'm gettin tired of seein people say call Shane at Crower. I like the guy. He's a good dude. He's got a lot of good input here, but I'll be a sumbitch if I can get him on the phone. Left several messages with my number. Nothin. And that was after he OFFERED to help. I'd love to let him set me up. ....and it's still going to be a bit until I can actually DO something, but still it'd be nice to know WHAT I was going to do. I've talked to Ken at Oregon a bit now, always answers the phone, always bounces email replies right back. I caint do business with someone if I caint get in touch with them.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
FWIW..... Personally, that Jones cam has my vote if want that .050" lift duration to be around 230. The reasons that Wyrm and YR give for the LSA being OK narrower IMHO may not hold 100% with that .006" duration... but IDK honestly. The vacuum estimate says it will be decent (not factory smooth idle but a small rumble), and that sounds good for the MAP sensor to work well in the EFI system. DCR is in the upper 7's so ought to be OK on pump fuel.
It has a middling aggressiveness to the ramp out of that list. So that seems good for longevity, which seems of value in your cruising use.
BTW your open valve spring pressure in your list to Jones is about 300 lbs high!
Let's see..... roller rockers on a shaft (TF heads), lift over .550", heavy valve train (rollers)..... you may want to look into your valve train geometry. I don't think any big correction (if any) is needed for lifts under .500" and lighter valve trains and lower RPM ranges. So its probably not gonna be of any consequence to you for your lower RPM use. But if you rev it up, then it may become an RPM limiter.
It has a middling aggressiveness to the ramp out of that list. So that seems good for longevity, which seems of value in your cruising use.
BTW your open valve spring pressure in your list to Jones is about 300 lbs high!
Let's see..... roller rockers on a shaft (TF heads), lift over .550", heavy valve train (rollers)..... you may want to look into your valve train geometry. I don't think any big correction (if any) is needed for lifts under .500" and lighter valve trains and lower RPM ranges. So its probably not gonna be of any consequence to you for your lower RPM use. But if you rev it up, then it may become an RPM limiter.
Jones gave the same lifter lift in and ex: .564" without geometry losses. (1.6 rocker ratio)
DrEamer
I suffer from cars on the brain!
Honestly that is one of the reasons I think the Bullet cam recommend is not a bad choice. It is not far off from the Howards cam, and that has a very nice street curve. I don't have the desk top dyno, but use CamQuest 6 for fun. While it uses Comp only cams, it does let me look at different curves, even if they are not for a Mopar. Chris at Bullet has been at doing cams for a long time, and has a good following from those who know him.
I plan on running a geometry correction kit from B3 Racing. I may not need it at this level of cam, but it can't hurt.The last thing I want to have is a spring killer for a street car.
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
Three cheers for Rusty post 89
Most builds on this forum are not Bracket racers (although fun to discuss)
NM post 91
at least light retainers- what are the valve weights on those heads- lighter than stock I hope
post 92
Is the Bullet spec a HR? I can't tell from the thread- I would go with bullet for a FT cam
that asked
Jones Inverse Radius Profiles are much superior to any flat flank roller
PM Krooser for a straight shot or do the math- we are talking about simple geometry of the roller to cam here, side loading constraints, etc
B3 kit I would say is required for long life even with a mild cam for shaft rockers but you have pedestals- Did I miss that you are converting to shafts?
still you need premium adjustable valvetrain, do the mid lift calculation and pushrods- whose rockers? B3 might make suggestions or you get a straight shot from Rocker Arm Specialists in Nor Cal- I've known those guys since they were in San Pedro many many years ago
I would suggest 1.7 rockers(if individual, 1.6 if shaft)
if you do not have rockers already and one size smaller cam- ask Jones -he has 40+ years experience doing this and is one of the best cam pickers-
did you say what your exhaust is ?
also Jones could use .050 and .100 flows when you fine tune your cam requirements
Have you tried the Controlled Induction software and Pipe Max?
Most builds on this forum are not Bracket racers (although fun to discuss)
NM post 91
at least light retainers- what are the valve weights on those heads- lighter than stock I hope
post 92
Is the Bullet spec a HR? I can't tell from the thread- I would go with bullet for a FT cam
that asked
Jones Inverse Radius Profiles are much superior to any flat flank roller
PM Krooser for a straight shot or do the math- we are talking about simple geometry of the roller to cam here, side loading constraints, etc
B3 kit I would say is required for long life even with a mild cam for shaft rockers but you have pedestals- Did I miss that you are converting to shafts?
still you need premium adjustable valvetrain, do the mid lift calculation and pushrods- whose rockers? B3 might make suggestions or you get a straight shot from Rocker Arm Specialists in Nor Cal- I've known those guys since they were in San Pedro many many years ago
I would suggest 1.7 rockers(if individual, 1.6 if shaft)
if you do not have rockers already and one size smaller cam- ask Jones -he has 40+ years experience doing this and is one of the best cam pickers-
did you say what your exhaust is ?
also Jones could use .050 and .100 flows when you fine tune your cam requirements
Have you tried the Controlled Induction software and Pipe Max?
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
There's a difference between DDD, a real dyno and time slips.
I'm not the only one saying it. David Vizard his literally hundreds of tests where the narrow LSA was a better.
Again, so I'm not misquoted, LSA is the RESULT of the timing events. Period. You don't call and ask for a 105 LSA. You let the events dictate where the LSA falls, within reason.
When I see these wide LSA cams for low performance, or induction limited stuff I know, for a FACT, the timing events are wrong. Fix that, the LSA will fall in line and the engine will make more power, everywhere, except it won't have as much after peak RPM, as in over-rev. But most guys don't like to RPM their engines, so that should be no issue.
@yellow rose Agreed on the DDD & time slips.
I have always said the DDD is a great learning tool for the new guy and really good to see how different cam values affect the curve. Accurate? Somewhat I’d say. I wouldn’t ever say it will be dead on or super close but IMO, it is a good program to get a good idea on what you could possibly see from your intended or current build.
For a super inexpensive program, I rate it OK to enjoy and learn a little something.
True, nothing like a real dyno and the track to prove it.
I have always said the DDD is a great learning tool for the new guy and really good to see how different cam values affect the curve. Accurate? Somewhat I’d say. I wouldn’t ever say it will be dead on or super close but IMO, it is a good program to get a good idea on what you could possibly see from your intended or current build.
For a super inexpensive program, I rate it OK to enjoy and learn a little something.
True, nothing like a real dyno and the track to prove it.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
LOL. I still use my copy of DDD I have on my antique PC. I just understand its limits. It's actually very accurate when comparing two known parameters.
I really need to get PipeMax, but I don't have a PC that will run it.
What does Pipe Max need?
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nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
IIRC, the OP is using the Pro Maxx heads and I do believe that they are shaft rockers only.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Going back to the reversion issues at lower RPM's, I gotta ask if 'more power everywhere' means more torque below 2500 RPM..... I am a bit skeptical (but sure don't know it all) and still think it is a trade-off for what you want to do, and the lobe type you want to run. Let's face it: If you are in a low cost mode and all you can afford is a lowest cost flat tappet cam and cheap springs, you're just gonna have certain lobes to pick from and if you want to emphasize real low RPM torque, then you are limited on your options. I don't see it as particularly 'wrong'.....
I don't know the Vizard tests and what they were optimized for...It's a pretty interesting topic to me. FWIW.... I have been on the shorter duration/higher lift page for a long, long time.
BTW, not of this applies not the OP... this is just the usual internet tangent LOL
DrEamer
I suffer from cars on the brain!
I am going to use Trick Flow heads, which are shaft mounts only. Just for the record, all the cams that I requested are HR only.
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