Stumped

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zigs

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I'm having sending unit problems. New sending unit. I have done all the fuel gauge tests and the guage works. I have voltage to sending unit. I'm grounded to the same place as my fuel pump and it works fine. I've put my multimeter on everything and its all checking out. I even pulled the sending unit out and tested it and it ran the scale like it should.
I can ground it out and the fuel guage will move. I'm out of ideas , maybe the sending unit is faulty?
 
First, what sort of problems are you having? Does it read high, or low, or intermittent?

Are you sure the temp gauge is OK?

(The voltage limiter affects both.)

You CAN check the gauge for accuracy. Mopar used to have a test box you could hook in place of the sender, but if you have the sender out, you can ADJUST the sender to these resistances, and then see if the gauge reads accordingly. Alternately, you can get some "power resistors" at Radio Sh&& and substitute them in place of the sender


The values are:

L = 73.7 Ohms (empty)
M = 23.0 Ohms (1/2)
H = 10.2 Ohms (full)
 
" grounded to the same place as fuel pump " suggests electric fuel pump which leads to all sorts of missing details. What fuel tank, what fuel lines, what sender, etc..
 
First, what sort of problems are you having? Does it read high, or low, or intermittent?

Are you sure the temp gauge is OK?

(The voltage limiter affects both.)

You CAN check the gauge for accuracy. Mopar used to have a test box you could hook in place of the sender, but if you have the sender out, you can ADJUST the sender to these resistances, and then see if the gauge reads accordingly. Alternately, you can get some "power resistors" at Radio Sh&& and substitute them in place of the sender


The values are:

L = 73.7 Ohms (empty)
M = 23.0 Ohms (1/2)
H = 10.2 Ohms (full)

Voltage limiter is working correctly 12 V in 5 V out.
I have 5V at the feed wire.
Continuity through out the sweep of the float 9 to 89 close enough.
Grounded power at sending unit, gauge works.
Rechecked ground, ran seperate wire to ground, continuity from new ground to sending unit good. Put power to unit nothing (float wide open)
Checked voltage at unit stud once again 5V. Put probe to different parts of unit ,also picked up 5V . Could this bee the problem ? Am I supposed to get a voltage reading no matter where I touch the sending unit or just at the stud.
 
just at the stud

the base of the sending unit is grounded and the stud is insulated and with it plugged in it could be from 0 to 5v depending on how high the float is.

unplug the sending unit wire. measure the resistance-ohms between the tip of the stud and the base of the sending unit. it should be around 10ohms if the tank is full and about 100ohms if the tank is empty. or somewhere in between
 
just at the stud

the base of the sending unit is grounded and the stud is insulated and with it plugged in it could be from 0 to 5v depending on how high the float is.

unplug the sending unit wire. measure the resistance-ohms between the tip of the stud and the base of the sending unit. it should be around 10ohms if the tank is full and about 100ohms if the tank is empty. or somewhere in between

Right. Been there , done that. Not having problems finding ohms. I'm getting 5v no matter where i touch it on the sending unit. I'm thinking I have a short in the unit itself. I will still get all the correct ohm readings but the voltage isn't making the resistance it needs to operate. In other words ,it works by hand but not by voltage.
 
yeah i was thinkin if you could check the ohms with it on the tank you would know if it's shorted instead of 9-99 ohms
 
Re-test:

Ground disconnected lead at tank from fuel gage to a good ground, gage should read full with key in run position.

With feed from gas gage disconnected recheck ohms between sending unit’s electrical terminal, and good ground. You should get a reading proportional to the chart Zigs provided:

The values are:

L = 73.7 Ohms (empty)
M = 23.0 Ohms (1/2)
H = 10.2 Ohms (full)

Reconnect sending wire to sending unit, and the steel bridging ground strap that jumps the rubber between sending unit and fuel line. Sometimes these straps lose their electrical connection to ground, and need their connections cleaned to once again conduct. The sending unit has to be grounded well to work, if the connection to ground is poor, or nonexistent because of corrosion, the gage will not read correctly because of the increased resistance introduced to the circuit.

Picture what an additional 50 ohms from a bad ground would do the above chart; a full tank would read as empty. (10 Ohms + 50 Ohms = 60 ohms).

If gage still does not read to known level of fuel in tank after remaking ground, the problem is with the sending unit.
 
Ok , once again. I have established that I have continuity on the sending unit. The ohms read from 9 to about 87. I'm fine there. I have tested this both at the unit base and at the ground wire to the body.
When I apply power I get 5v at the unit stud ,this is good but it is not sending resistance back to the guage. I run a ground test to the power stud and the guage moves.
I don't have the ground strap. I'm using wire and hose clamp and I'm getting good continuity through the unit. I've rechecked the cluster,voltage limiter is good, pins are good, tracers are good and have good ground there also.
 
Did you not mention that you have another junk sender?

Try this

1 Measure the sender resistance AT THE TANK between the metal of the sender itself and the sender terminal.

2 Measure the resistance AGAIN from the sender terminal to "stab" the other probe into the trunk floor. It should not change much / at all from step one

3 Measure the resistance a THIRD time from the disconnected gauge wire up at the gauge end, to the dash ground. Once again, it should be very close to step one

Now using the chart I originally posted, estimate what you think the "gauge should read" based on your sender test.


Before you hook things up, check the following:

(Don't know, is your cluster one or two PC boards??)

On my 67, I had "some" of the following problems, which you need to check

Loose, bad connections, broken pins at the PC board connector

On my board, the brass "springy fingers" that forms the contacts for the limiter were NOT making good contact with the board. Solder them TO the copper traces, OR use light ga. short jumpers to solder between the finger contacts and the PC board.

The gauge studs may not be making contact with the board. You might replace the nuts with new "Real" nuts, and use star washers. Work them loose/ tight a couple of times to "scrub the connection clean

Check carefully the PC board path to the connector pins, and use the "wiggle" test to look for bad pins. Be sure the board is WELL grounded to the casting, and use a separate ground wire from one of the board ground screws, bolt this wire to the column support behind the dash.

So hook things up, and allow as much as a minute for things to stabilize.

Now take your meter and read the voltage from the gauge sender terminal to ground, and make CAREFUL measurements to hundreds or at least tenths of volts Be absolutely SURE you have a good probe connections to the dash frame with the meter.

Now move to the dash PC connector and see if you can detect ANY voltage difference.

Move finally to the tank sender itself, and measure the voltage from the sender terminal (using a clip lead) to ground. Check BOTH the sender metal itself and the trunk floor.

Next, after letting gauges stabilize, measure the voltage at the temp and fuel limiter terminals. (It would be good to devise a way to get the temp gauge upscale, you can use your junker sender for this?

Now, after measuring the sender limiter voltage, DISCONNECT one or the other gauges, and see if the limiter voltage changes (I'm assuming by what you said earlier that you are using a solid state replacement limiter?)
 
Did you not mention that you have another junk sender?

Try this

1 Measure the sender resistance AT THE TANK between the metal of the sender itself and the sender terminal.

2 Measure the resistance AGAIN from the sender terminal to "stab" the other probe into the trunk floor. It should not change much / at all from step one

3 Measure the resistance a THIRD time from the disconnected gauge wire up at the gauge end, to the dash ground. Once again, it should be very close to step one

Now using the chart I originally posted, estimate what you think the "gauge should read" based on your sender test.


Before you hook things up, check the following:

(Don't know, is your cluster one or two PC boards??)

On my 67, I had "some" of the following problems, which you need to check

Loose, bad connections, broken pins at the PC board connector

On my board, the brass "springy fingers" that forms the contacts for the limiter were NOT making good contact with the board. Solder them TO the copper traces, OR use light ga. short jumpers to solder between the finger contacts and the PC board.

The gauge studs may not be making contact with the board. You might replace the nuts with new "Real" nuts, and use star washers. Work them loose/ tight a couple of times to "scrub the connection clean

Check carefully the PC board path to the connector pins, and use the "wiggle" test to look for bad pins. Be sure the board is WELL grounded to the casting, and use a separate ground wire from one of the board ground screws, bolt this wire to the column support behind the dash.

So hook things up, and allow as much as a minute for things to stabilize.

Now take your meter and read the voltage from the gauge sender terminal to ground, and make CAREFUL measurements to hundreds or at least tenths of volts Be absolutely SURE you have a good probe connections to the dash frame with the meter.

Now move to the dash PC connector and see if you can detect ANY voltage difference.

Move finally to the tank sender itself, and measure the voltage from the sender terminal (using a clip lead) to ground. Check BOTH the sender metal itself and the trunk floor.

Next, after letting gauges stabilize, measure the voltage at the temp and fuel limiter terminals. (It would be good to devise a way to get the temp gauge upscale, you can use your junker sender for this?

Now, after measuring the sender limiter voltage, DISCONNECT one or the other gauges, and see if the limiter voltage changes (I'm assuming by what you said earlier that you are using a solid state replacement limiter?)

Mine is the double board. I have already soldered all the pins. I rebuilt the boards a couple weeks ago. Ran a test on everything I did. Nothing touching ,good continuity ,tracers all good. Yes using solid state limiter dead on at 5v out put. Dash lights all work, blinkers work.
Tomarrow I'm going to take the cluster apart again and see if something isn't touching. I will test that again. BTW I did test the junker it was doing exactly the same as the new one. I'll go through everything again. Hey what are you doing tomarrow
 
Right. Been there , done that. Not having problems finding ohms. I'm getting 5v no matter where i touch it on the sending unit. I'm thinking I have a short in the unit itself. I will still get all the correct ohm readings but the voltage isn't making the resistance it needs to operate. In other words ,it works by hand but not by voltage.


Uh you get 5v to ground on the sender body? That means you don't have a ground path that will carry enough current to run the gauge.

Whatever your ground connection is to the sender body or the chassis ground is, you have a problem. Disconnect the 5v signal, and set your meter to OHMS. Check the resistance to a known good chassis ground through the sender. Next check the resistance from the sender body to the same ground. Should be a fraction of an ohm.

.
 
73 ohms brings the pointer up to the empty hash mark 80 ohms will not move the needle from the E. The oil and temp gauges are responding to 80 ohms at switch on as in 120 degrees or zero oil pressure by not moving if that makes sense. The fuel gauge should always respond to switch on by climbing from its home position to at least the empty mark.
If you have a sender that will make 78 or more ohms resistance at its empty stop, its flawed.
 
Probably has been addressed by now but I installed a ground strap to the tank and frame(not the usual OEM type).
 
It seems to me you have a sender that isn't making connection at one end or the other. One end is simply grounded, the other is a variable resistor (that would be resistance measured in ohms).
 
Get another jumper wire and add a second ground from the sender housing to a good clean chassis ground just to eliminate that as the problem. Grounds on those tanks can be tempermental.
 
Hey what are you doing tomarrow

!! LOL !! Wish I could. I guess you are in Yakima? Long ways from Coeur d Alene. It'd cost you more for a bus/train/plane trip to get me there and back than hiring local talent.

Years ago I did a "little" upgrade on the 911 dispatch center furniture over there. While I was in dispatch working, I overheard the following one sided 911 call:

"911, what is your emergency?"

"Duct tape?"

"On the hood?"

"So let me get this clear, you say she is DUCT TAPED to the HOOD?? And they are driving up and down the street that way? Officers are ON THE WAY"

"Central, any available unit code three, vicinity of AAAA and BBBB streets.........."




Get another jumper wire and add a second ground from the sender housing to a good clean chassis ground just to eliminate that as the problem. Grounds on those tanks can be tempermental.


I thought he already addressed this, but it never hurts to double check. That is, however why I asked him to check voltage, key on, from sender flange to a good body ground
 
!! LOL !! Wish I could. I guess you are in Yakima? Long ways from Coeur d Alene. It'd cost you more for a bus/train/plane trip to get me there and back than hiring local talent.

Years ago I did a "little" upgrade on the 911 dispatch center furniture over there. While I was in dispatch working, I overheard the following one sided 911 call:

"911, what is your emergency?"

"Duct tape?"

"On the hood?"

"So let me get this clear, you say she is DUCT TAPED to the HOOD?? And they are driving up and down the street that way? Officers are ON THE WAY"

"Central, any available unit code three, vicinity of AAAA and BBBB streets.........."







I thought he already addressed this, but it never hurts to double check. That is, however why I asked him to check voltage, key on, from sender flange to a good body ground

Ya another fun night in Yakima. Coeur D alene is about 240 from Yakima.
Not a bad drive. I used to go up to Preist River all the time. Love that area. I think I have this figured out. I don't have a ground problem . As some of you mentioned the sending unit is reading to high at over 80 ohm's ,not getting enough continuity. I will adjust to 73 ohm's. Also I pulled my dash cluster apart again! and found that the temp guage stud was loose ( actually it fell out)so its basically broken.Hopefully between the two it will work when I'm done. I would like to thank everyone that responded to this thread.
Zigs
 
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